Why you should always VFR numerically

[CrimsonKatana]

Well just look at my example game and look at all the evils claims. Consort claimed Escort because there was no spy, Godfather claimed vig to provide CC to Veteran to keep it from being confirmed, Forger was Jailed N1 which allowed him to claim Doc since he would have an excuse as to not being on Jailor N1, Mafioso claimed ret because they weren't surviving that jail if they didn't... Those are just some examples of optimal claims and it shouldn't be that hard to do...

[woahah]

alternative:
dont vfr

[CrimsonKatana]

If you're town then you're not doing all you can to try and win though

[EqsyLootz]

alternative:
dont vfr

epic gamer

VFR is good though o-o. Especially when no one is talking with no leads.

[Yosh1123]

everyone knows that vfr always favors evils, crimson is just trolling with this 'not doing all you can'

[CrimsonKatana]

Why don't you explain exactly how it favors evils? Cause I've already explained exactly how it favors town and what I'm talking about is numerical VFR

[Yosh1123]

duh it outs all the tps so they die

[vincethejester2]

dont vote 1-15 vote 15-1.

[CrimsonKatana]

Well if we don't stick to the same system everytime Mafia could manipulate the votes to try and go for 15 if mafs are near the beginning

[Yosh1123]

Well if we don't stick to the same system everytime Mafia could manipulate the votes to try and go for 15 if mafs are near the beginning

you haven't responded to me

[kyuss420]

who hasnt claimed by end of day 2 as town tho?

Also it doesnt matter what order you VFR. If done properly. VFR doesnt mean click guilty, it means get a role claim. Dont like VFR? easy, just claim early and you wont be voted.

The only advantage with going from 1-15 (or 15 -1) is that townies are going to claim BEFORE they get voted up, because they know its coming, so that another role claim can be obtained that day. Once 1 and 2 have been placed on trial and given a claim, players 3 and 4 are going to claim pretty fast

[kyuss420]

duh it outs all the tps so they die

they gonna die regardless, especially if they dont have a clue who to vote because TIs arent sharing who was inno

[CrimsonKatana]

Mafia Goal: Kill anyone that will not submit to the Mafia.
Not Mafia Goal: Kill all Town Protectives.

Arsonist Goal: Live to see everyone burn.
Not Arsonist Goal: Live to see all Town Protectives burn.

Serial Killer & Werewolf Goal: Kill everyone who would oppose you.
Not Serial Killer & Werewolf Goal: Kill all Town Protectives who would oppose you.

You don't need town protectives to stop them from reaching their goals...

[kosmo16]

Well just look at my example game and look at all the evils claims. Consort claimed Escort because there was no spy, Godfather claimed vig to provide CC to Veteran to keep it from being confirmed, Forger was Jailed N1 which allowed him to claim Doc since he would have an excuse as to not being on Jailor N1, Mafioso claimed ret because they weren't surviving that jail if they didn't... Those are just some examples of optimal claims and it shouldn't be that hard to do...

I would say these are suboptimal plays.

[CrimsonKatana]

Okay name better ones in that situation

[kyuss420]

Okay name better ones in that situation

All claim TI. Flood the game with TI claims so no one knows what to believe. Get the real TIs lynched by pushing first and getting the sheep votes.

[CrimsonKatana]

All that's gonna happen in that scenario is you're gonna have a confirmed TP and TK and you're just gonna have all the TIs start checking each other and start x for x on them, which should be a win for town

[kosmo16]

Okay name better ones in that situation

Let me add an analysis to the scenario you described:
Spoiler:

This is an example game of numerical VFR being the main strat in use here. A lot of things were determined by RNG when it needed to be and a lot of things were determined by the assumption that every player is playing kind of flawlessly showing that's it's reliable even against other flawless players, and in many scenarios as this one was determined by RNG. I think this game also shows that the games more balanced than some might suggest (at least without retri), in this scenario evils all played really good which is why they got pretty close...

Jailor - 1 (Jailor)
TI - 10 (Sheriff)
TI - 14 (Sheriff)
TP - 12 (Doctor)
TK - 3 (Veteran)
TS - 11 (Transporter)
RT - 13 (Mayor)
RT - 7 (Sheriff)
RT - 5 (Lookout)
GF - 6 (Godfather)
Maf - 9 (Mafioso)
RM - 2 (Consort)
RM - 15 (Forger)
NE - 8 (Witch)
NK - 4 (Werewolf)

Day 1:
1: Jailor here TP/LO/ESC/SPY ON ME!
3: MAFIA WILL VISIT ME IF THEY HAVE WATERMELON SIZED BOLLUCKS!!!

Night 1:
1(Jailor) has decided to jail 15
1(Jailor): role?
15(Forger): I'm Doctor
-------------------------------------
10 (Sheriff) Interrogates 15 [Target Jailed]
14 (Sheriff) Interrogates 10 [Innocent]
12 (Doctor) Heals 1
3 (Veteran) Decides to go on alert
11 (Transporter) Transports 11 & 8
7 (Sheriff) Interrogates 6 [Innocent]
5 (Lookout) Decides to watch over 1 (12, 2)
6 (Godfather) & 9 (Mafioso) decide to kill 7
2 (Consort) Decides to roleblock 1
8 (Witch) Decides to control 13 onto 3 [Mayor]

Day 2:
7 Has been found dead their role was Sheriff
Will:
Sheriff
N1: 6 -

(w) 5 to 1: Lookout N1: 1 - VB: 12, 2
(w) 1 to 12: Role?
(w) 12 to 1: I am doctor, was on you last night
13: I got witched last night
8: Transed
11: Transed
1: All spies claim now and I got rbed btw
.......
1: Okay no spies
(w) 1 to 2: Role?
(w) 2 to 1: I'm the escort who rbed you
1: OKAY TOWN VFR NUMERICALLY STARTING WITH 3!!!
3: I'm Veteran, I baited yesterday, any tk cc?
6: I cc tk I'm vig
1: Okay town now we vote 4 up! 6 SHOOT 3 AND 3 ALERT TONIGHT!!!
[4 gets voted up]
Defense:
4: Okay guys I'm sheriff and I checked 13 last night
Sheriff
N1: 13 - inno
.......
1: Okay guys all TI cc come out now unless you've already claimed to me via whispers
10: I CC TI and Sheriff
14: I CC TI and Sheriff
1: OKAY WE ACTUALLY HAVE 3 CC BUT WE NEED TO INNO ANYWAYS!
.....
[4 is innod off the stand]
1: NOW HURRY UP AND GET 8 UP!
8: Wait what???
[8 gets voted up]
8: okay I'm Invest
Investigator
N1: 6 - Vig/Vet/Maf
....
1: GUILTY THIS THEY JUST DIDN'T CC TI!!!
[8 is gultied]
8's role was Witch
Will:
Investigator
N1: 6 - Vig/Vet/Maf

Night 2:
1(Jailor) has decided to jail 9
1(Jailor) Role?
9(Mafioso) Dude! I can't believe you jailed me, I was ret! I was gonna revive Sheriff!!!
--------------------
10 (Sheriff) Interrogates 4 [Suspicious]
14 (Sheriff) Interrogates 4 [Suspicious]
12 (Doctor) Heals 1 [Target Attacked]
3 (Veteran) Decides to go on alert
11 (Transporter) Transports 11 & 2
5 (Lookout) Decides to watch over 12 (NV)
6 (Godfather) Decides to kill 5
4 (Werewolf) Decides to rampage at 1's House

Day 3:
5 has been found dead their role was Lookout
Will:
Lookout
N1: 1 - VB: 12, 2
N2: 12 - VB:
12 has been found dead their role was Doctor
Will:
Doctor
N1: 1
N2: 1
........
10: 4 is suspicious!
14: 4 is suspicious!
1: Okay that's 2 for 1 so we get 4 today
4: THESE ARE 2 EVILS GUNNING FOR ME!
1: I don't really care it's 2 for 1 bro
6: I shot 3 last night and he was immune
1: okay we'll handle that tomorrow 6 but for now let's just do the 2 for 1
3: I'm vet and I alerted and he did not shoot me
15: I got rbed last night
2: I can confirm I rbed him
1: Okay everyone vote for 4 now
[4 is voted and gultied]
4's role was WW
1: Escort don't rb anyone tonight or you're evil!

N3:
1(Jailor) has decided to jail 13
13: I'm mayor will reveal tomorrow
..........
10 (Sheriff) Interrogates 11 [Innocent]
14 (Sheriff) Interrogates 9 [Suspicious]
3 (Veteran) Decides to go on alert
11 (Transporter) Transports 1 & 13 [Target Jailed]
6 (Godfather) & 9 (Mafioso) decide to kill 11

D4:
11 has been found dead their role was transporter
.......
[13 has revealed themselves as the mayor]
14: N3: 9 - suspicious
1: Yeah lynch 9 he told me he was retri and he was gonna revive but he didn't, tomorrow we will handle the VIG/VET situation
[9 is voted up and gultied]
1: btw guys if I ever die lynch 15 cause they claim doc

N4:
1(Jailor) has decided to jail 2
1(Jailor): I think you're evil but it's only 2/3 chance so I have to keep you alive
2(Consort): I'm not it's one of the sheriff's
----------------
10(Sheriff) Interrogates 2 [Target Jailed]
14(Sheriff) Interrogates 15 [Suspicious]
6(Godfather) Decides to kill 1

D5:
1 has been found dead they were jailor
.......
14: guys 15 is suspicious get them and they claimed doc yet jailor died
15: I self healed last night
13: Okay 15 dies today
[15 is lynched]
15's role was Forger

after that it's pretty obvious what happens, Mayor dies the next night, then 2 is safest hang, then a sheriff is killed, and finally since vig never confirmed themselves with a second shot they are lynched over the vet claim meaning town wins...

First, the setup:
2 - Consort
6 - Godfather
9 - Mafioso
15 - Forger

Consort and Godfather will be most likely forced to claim Day 2 in VFR. Overall, very strong setup.

Day 1:
1: Jailor here TP/LO/ESC/SPY ON ME!
3: MAFIA WILL VISIT ME IF THEY HAVE WATERMELON SIZED BOLLUCKS!!!

Jailor meta game. So what you want to do with any setup with Consort is an aggressive play Day 2. You mentioned that the best solution for Town is x for x. But when there is a Consort it is very likely that Town will trade 1 for 0, because Consort will stop the execution. Veteran is most likely known, which is good.

Night 1:
1(Jailor) has decided to jail 15
1(Jailor): role?
15(Forger): I'm Doctor
-------------------------------------
10 (Sheriff) Interrogates 15 [Target Jailed]
14 (Sheriff) Interrogates 10 [Innocent]
12 (Doctor) Heals 1
3 (Veteran) Decides to go on alert
11 (Transporter) Transports 11 & 8
7 (Sheriff) Interrogates 6 [Innocent]
5 (Lookout) Decides to watch over 1 (12, 2)
6 (Godfather) & 9 (Mafioso) decide to kill 7
2 (Consort) Decides to roleblock 1
8 (Witch) Decides to control 13 onto 3 [Mayor]

Forger is jailed which is not a comfortable situation as RM should really visit the Jailor (in case of heavy TI/TP Town setup) and now the Consort must to do this. Forger claimed Doctor. It is the best claim possible for aggressive action, which Mafia should do D2. Why? Because now it is possible to lynch a TP if there is only one.

Random kill Night 1, as there is no clues about who to kill.
Consort should be ready to claim TP/Spy/Escort.
Godfather/Mafioso should be ready to claim Sheriff, Investigator/TK

Day 2:
7 Has been found dead their role was Sheriff
Will:
Sheriff
N1: 6 -

(w) 5 to 1: Lookout N1: 1 - VB: 12, 2
(w) 1 to 12: Role?
(w) 12 to 1: I am doctor, was on you last night
13: I got witched last night
8: Transed
11: Transed
1: All spies claim now and I got rbed btw
.......
1: Okay no spies
(w) 1 to 2: Role?
(w) 2 to 1: I'm the escort who rbed you
1: OKAY TOWN VFR NUMERICALLY STARTING WITH 3!!!
3: I'm Veteran, I baited yesterday, any tk cc?
6: I cc tk I'm vig
1: Okay town now we vote 4 up! 6 SHOOT 3 AND 3 ALERT TONIGHT!!!
[4 gets voted up]
Defense:
4: Okay guys I'm sheriff and I checked 13 last night
Sheriff
N1: 13 - inno
.......
1: Okay guys all TI cc come out now unless you've already claimed to me via whispers
10: I CC TI and Sheriff
14: I CC TI and Sheriff
1: OKAY WE ACTUALLY HAVE 3 CC BUT WE NEED TO INNO ANYWAYS!
.....
[4 is innod off the stand]
1: NOW HURRY UP AND GET 8 UP!
8: Wait what???
[8 gets voted up]
8: okay I'm Invest
Investigator
N1: 6 - Vig/Vet/Maf
....
1: GUILTY THIS THEY JUST DIDN'T CC TI!!!
[8 is gultied]
8's role was Witch
Will:
Investigator
N1: 6 - Vig/Vet/Maf

There are few critical information for Mafia. There is a Lookout, Transporter, Witch, no Spy, no Serial Killer. What can stop aggressive play is the Transporter, because can prevent a rb on the Jailor. But the Transporter should be concerned about Werewolf who is really likely to be in this game. If there is Mayor or Retributionist then Mafia needs to snipe Transporter Night 2 which is almost impossible. Counting claims allow Mafia to figure out it is really likely that there is one.
Passive play: Mafioso cc's Vigilante and Godfather deepwolf as Sheriff. Why? Because there is no Vigilante so it is more important to have a Godfather's immunity for Sheriff claim Mafia still needs to play aggressively, but not Day 2.

So in outcome Witch is lynched, Mayor or Transporter should be jailed. Kill is optimal.

Day 3:
5 has been found dead their role was Lookout
Will:
Lookout
N1: 1 - VB: 12, 2
N2: 12 - VB:
12 has been found dead their role was Doctor
Will:
Doctor
N1: 1
N2: 1
........
10: 4 is suspicious!
14: 4 is suspicious!
1: Okay that's 2 for 1 so we get 4 today
4: THESE ARE 2 EVILS GUNNING FOR ME!
1: I don't really care it's 2 for 1 bro
6: I shot 3 last night and he was immune
1: okay we'll handle that tomorrow 6 but for now let's just do the 2 for 1
3: I'm vet and I alerted and he did not shoot me
15: I got rbed last night
2: I can confirm I rbed him
1: Okay everyone vote for 4 now
[4 is voted and gultied]
4's role was WW
1: Escort don't rb anyone tonight or you're evil!

Godfather should scream 4 is suspicious with other Sheriff claims and Mafioso that they shot Veteran. Outcome should be the same. Mafia kills Transporter. Optimal kill. And with that kill it's GG for Mafia as you just triple bus as Godfather.
Remaining roles are:
Jailor - 1 (Jailor)
TI - 10 (Sheriff)
TI - 14 (Sheriff)
TK - 3 (Veteran)
RT - 13 (Mayor)
GF - 6 (Godfather)
Maf - 9 (Mafioso)
RM - 2 (Consort)
RM - 15 (Forger)

E.g. Lynch Consort. Kill Jailor. Lynch Forger. Kill Mayor. Lynch Mafioso. Kill Veteran. Lynch Sheriff. Kill Sheriff. Town would never lynch the Sheriff who found 4 evils.

Jailor can execute Mafioso, Forger or Consort. It doesn't matter.

[RealZippyK]

You should really put all these threads you start into the Strategy subforum instead of filling up ToS discussion


Edit literally 3 minutes later: Of course when I say that it gets moved into it lol

[CrimsonKatana]

Idk what you mean cause in my screen it's been in strategic discussion the whole time this has happened to me before where I posted something in mobile bugs and for some reason one of the mods says "moved to mobile bugs" even though on my screen it was there the whole time

[kosmo16]

Since D4 it is exactly this:
https://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78234

If I were gf I think I would win with this vig claim.

[vsefoton]

im 1127 elo. i vfr from 1 to 15 too

[woahah]

my dude why the bump just to say your elo
sure, you should vfr from 1 to 15
but still
dont

[macedonianelite]

Always VFR (Vote For Role) in numerical order from #1 then #2 then #3 etc because otherwise evils could manipulate the people who get voted up versus those who don't if you don't make sure it's always gonna be the same order every time...

VFRing numerically is the only justifiable means of VFR.

VFRing quiet people is the second stage, by D3, when roles have been claimed and roles have been counter-claimed. Throwing up quiet people by D2 will only serve to cause chaos and relive the barbaric witch-hunt many a century ago, of the place where this game is based on: salem. Suspicion should not be bestowed so easily. Solid fact-proof evidence first, and leave the residual intuition to the confirmed roles, unless there is something everybody can agree on.

-In-game name, Hulah Zulah, ELO: roughly 2200

[ak521]

I 100% support of this strategy and evils commonly use this to their advantage. It's best, however, in my opinion.

Here are some examples:
- Most mafia members attempt to kill Player#15 (Regular chance of dying N1 supposing mafia picks absolutely randomly is >9%, however it seems that #15 dies about 14% of the time)
- If they do not kill #15, it's slightly more likely they are mafia based on that statistic.
- If they do not kill #15, they likely kill between #6-14 (however almost never 1-5. 1 is most often of these five numbers by FAR - 4 is next with a little more than half of #1's chance). Again, they want to kill someone later than them so they do not speed up the time in which they must claim.
- Jesters will often act AFK if they are player number 1 OR they may enforce VFR. May backfire perhaps in lower elos where people will skip #1. Watch for people trying to lead town if you're doing this strategy

The statistics I provided may not be accurate, I did it based off 50 ranked games. Again, that applies only to ranked.

What you said makes sense, though, it needs to be standard, and numerically is easy for new players to catch on.