Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

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Should I have Executed the alleged Exe/Jester?

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Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby Nyricanmini » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:40 pm

First post btw.
As an excuse if i end up being wrong about all this, i've only gotten back into the game about a month and a half ago after playing back around 2015, so i'm a bit nooby. Also this was Ranked Practice, so everyone kinda sucks.

So i was playing Jailor just now, and someone (We'll call them Person 1) claiming LO pointed out someone else as SK(we'll call them Person 2), saying they visited the person who the SK killed. Town believed that Person 1 was exe, trying to target town and had said, "Jailor exe them" I had decided that, yes, they could be exe trying to hang the man, or jester trying to get themselves hung, but i didn't want to waste an execution on them. The reason i say this is because the Jailor can work as a Town Investigative role and Town Killing role at the same time. I believed that I would be more useful to town by finding out roles than to just kill the Exe/Jester. The only exception imo would be if it's Mid/Late game and maf could potentially use them as an extra vote.

After the whole Person 1 ordeal, someone calls for VFR on Person 3, who had gotten defensive and been like "VFR sucks bro, never VFR guys." I thought he was a little sus for trying to avoid claiming, so I jailed them to get their role. I asked for their role, but they had begun to bitch about how VFR sucks, and you should never VFR Day 2, blah blah blah. Since he hadn't claimed, i made the decision to execute him. Person 3 ended up being Vet.
Town begun to bitch about how i hadn't killed the obvious Exe/Jester, and I defended myself saying that i didn't want to waste an exe.

The following night i died.

Person 1 had died the next night, and he ended up actually being LO,. In the end, it wouldn't have mattered, as i would still lose my exes, but should i still have exed him because he seemed to be an obvious Exe/Jester at the time?
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby TiberianSun371AlexW » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:07 pm

Jailing Executions and Jesters on purpose is a poor play. Jailor can collect claims from people quietly without exposing them, killing NE like this is stupid.

Jailing someone at random and realizing from their confession they are NE, if you got 2 executions left, executing them isn't a bad idea. Witch and Executions have goals that are against town (and witches are dangerous outright) and Jesters haunt Mayors for no good reason instead of ransoming whenever there is a revealed mayor. The only times I let an Exe cut a deal with me on the "I'll vote with you if you hang my target" deal is if the target is a vet who alerts N1 (someone who does that and gets no kills most of the time probably would be empty soon anyways), Retributionists, and investigators. This is less out of tactical reasons and more of a taste thing.

Mafia and Nks sometimes pretend to be NE, but very rarely. The exception is that werewolves for some reason don't mind faking being executioner. 3/4 times this fake exe play is done day 2, as opposed to normal exes who sometimes make a day 2 play, but not 3/4 times. if it's a werewolf game, there is a descent chance that "NE" is not ne.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby Kuter » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:26 am

Tbh, you had all the rights to execute person 3, it is person 3 faults for not claiming at the very least that he was TK to you, but instead just complained from you what you said, it hides their roles if you ever die and witch/mafia don't know if you're vig or vet.

As for the LO - Jester/Exe guy, you could of jailed them and not execute, but that would of resulted in the same problem either way, like you said. You would of execute a townie, lose your exe and be useless and people would of still beach at you.

All in all, don't let it get to you, let the whiners complain, yeah its annoying when people get on your ass because you don't play how they want you to play, but that's online for you.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby woahah » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:41 am

Only kill exes/jesters if you have no reads or leads.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby ScarfVendetta » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:43 pm

In this scenario, Person 1 was not NE. If there is concrete proof that someone is lying such as claiming to have results on a jailed target, then that's a safe execution. The scenario you described was not the same, as it was only suspicions that they were NE, simply because they were acting 'Exey'.

Executing known Neutral Evils is a good move early in the game, as it helps preserve town majority and provides certainty for safer lynches later in the game. However, if town are barely holding their majority over evils, it may be smarter to scumread and execute a bigger threat.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:28 am

Meh, I woulda jailed the non claimer too, and defo exed if he didnt claim in jail. Hiding your role gives mafia claim space and the only way mafia win, is with claim space, The only roles that need to hide are the TPs, and they should be known and confirmed by LOs anyway.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby Iluyan » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:23 am

You should absolutly execute (potentional) Jesters/Executioners imo.
Especially in early game, rather not in late game (IE there is 5 people left, 2 town, 2 maf and 1 exe, you better focus on getting a maf.)
As long as Jesters and Executioners walk arround they will cause disruption and distraction in the town. So its better to get rid of them otherwise they will drag (negative) attention to them.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby flairric66 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 pm

I feel like you may have been a little to quick to execute people as it did not seem like the town was in such a desperate state when you were already deciding whether or not to exe potentially evil or neutral players. The town telling you to exe the possible "exe/jester" gave you immunity from being shouted down if it turned out to be the incorrect decision, ultimately I think you should have executed either Person 1 or Person 2 if you were that hell bent on using your exe. That situation should have been dealt with before you even considered executing anyone not involved in it.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby Dallasfootball04 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:12 pm

Yeah my opinion is that evils will normally side with evils, so if you have no real leads its better to get the NE out of the way. However, if its late game and mafia is still alive you should focus on them.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby kosmo16 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:37 am

Kind of sad that people didn't hang SK. About the play, it used to be very common to accuse people for being Mafia as Mafia/NK especially when evils are one lynch away from getting majority. Always exe neutral evil when you have no better leads, but only when you are sure they are not Town
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby flairric66 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:14 pm

TiberianSun371AlexW wrote:Jesters haunt Mayors for no good reason instead of ransoming whenever there is a revealed mayor.


This is anecdotal. Killing the mayor is an easy and detrimental blow to the town if the town did something to upset or go against the jester, but other than that usually the jester kills someone else. If for no other reason than Mayor and a lot of other people just vote innocent no matter what for every trial.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby ElleJoy » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:48 am

The absolute only time I will execute jester/exe as Jailor is if they're being intentionally obnoxious/distracting to town and it's clear they're evil. Otherwise, I usually just ask exe who their target is (thus almost guaranteeing a confirmed townie (they may lie, but that's a weird strat)) and with Jester, will try to give them a win if there's room for it once evils have been identified. Honestly, I wish they'd just call Jester/Exe plain old "neutral" rather than "neutral evil" -- When I play exe/jester, I have a tendency to try and help town as much as possible because A.) I'm bored and B.) Town is more likely to lynch you in the end than Mafia (cause less mafia members = more chance of being screwed over by jester kill). What frustrates me is when someone tells you you're supposed to side with evils as jester/exe, just because it's in your name. I get the point is to lynch your target/be lynched but let's be real - 99% of the time the strategies fail because it's obvious or your target ends up being confirmed vet/ret/whatever. It's my personal opinion the roles need a renovation as a whole... but the biggest issue I see is that there's no TRUE neutral position in ToS and this would be a great opportunity for that.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby kyuss420 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:07 am

ElleJoy wrote:The absolute only time I will execute jester/exe as Jailor is if they're being intentionally obnoxious/distracting to town and it's clear they're evil. Otherwise, I usually just ask exe who their target is (thus almost guaranteeing a confirmed townie (they may lie, but that's a weird strat)) and with Jester, will try to give them a win if there's room for it once evils have been identified. Honestly, I wish they'd just call Jester/Exe plain old "neutral" rather than "neutral evil" -- When I play exe/jester, I have a tendency to try and help town as much as possible because A.) I'm bored and B.) Town is more likely to lynch you in the end than Mafia (cause less mafia members = more chance of being screwed over by jester kill). What frustrates me is when someone tells you you're supposed to side with evils as jester/exe, just because it's in your name. I get the point is to lynch your target/be lynched but let's be real - 99% of the time the strategies fail because it's obvious or your target ends up being confirmed vet/ret/whatever. It's my personal opinion the roles need a renovation as a whole... but the biggest issue I see is that there's no TRUE neutral position in ToS and this would be a great opportunity for that.



Yawn @ townie sided nuetrals... if your exe target has lived long enough to be confirmed, then no wonder youre bored, cos youve done fuck all for days and let them be confirmed.... guessing your strategy is hoping town will be ''nice'' and give you a win in exchange for your vote (arso and WW wont like that tho). Yes, that is a very boring way to play exe.

If your strategies are failing 99% of the time, then you have shit strategies. I think my win rate with exe and jester would be +80% because I dont side with anyone. I dont help town, I dont help maf, I make my plays early when its easier to confuse town, rather than late when most of the players are confirmed, I mean, if your target is confirmed vet, you may as well help mafia gain majority, because chances are they are going to lynch him at some stage... for jester it can be as simple as claiming medium and posting a shit will day 3, or claiming RBed if theres no maf kill, or attacked and healed if theres no maf kill.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby ElleJoy » Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:40 pm

kyuss420 wrote:
ElleJoy wrote:The absolute only time I will execute jester/exe as Jailor is if they're being intentionally obnoxious/distracting to town and it's clear they're evil. Otherwise, I usually just ask exe who their target is (thus almost guaranteeing a confirmed townie (they may lie, but that's a weird strat)) and with Jester, will try to give them a win if there's room for it once evils have been identified. Honestly, I wish they'd just call Jester/Exe plain old "neutral" rather than "neutral evil" -- When I play exe/jester, I have a tendency to try and help town as much as possible because A.) I'm bored and B.) Town is more likely to lynch you in the end than Mafia (cause less mafia members = more chance of being screwed over by jester kill). What frustrates me is when someone tells you you're supposed to side with evils as jester/exe, just because it's in your name. I get the point is to lynch your target/be lynched but let's be real - 99% of the time the strategies fail because it's obvious or your target ends up being confirmed vet/ret/whatever. It's my personal opinion the roles need a renovation as a whole... but the biggest issue I see is that there's no TRUE neutral position in ToS and this would be a great opportunity for that.



Yawn @ townie sided nuetrals... if your exe target has lived long enough to be confirmed, then no wonder youre bored, cos youve done fuck all for days and let them be confirmed.... guessing your strategy is hoping town will be ''nice'' and give you a win in exchange for your vote (arso and WW wont like that tho). Yes, that is a very boring way to play exe.

If your strategies are failing 99% of the time, then you have shit strategies. I think my win rate with exe and jester would be +80% because I dont side with anyone. I dont help town, I dont help maf, I make my plays early when its easier to confuse town, rather than late when most of the players are confirmed, I mean, if your target is confirmed vet, you may as well help mafia gain majority, because chances are they are going to lynch him at some stage... for jester it can be as simple as claiming medium and posting a shit will day 3, or claiming RBed if theres no maf kill, or attacked and healed if theres no maf kill.


Lol opinions. Enjoy yours and I shall do the same with mine :)
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:06 am

99% failure rate vs 80% success rate.

''opinions''
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby EqsyLootz » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:54 am

Neutral evils side with mafia. So it's just like killing a mafia member.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby ElleJoy » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:00 pm

kyuss420 wrote:99% failure rate vs 80% success rate.

''opinions''


Sarcasm and exaggeration are lost on you, aren't they? LOL 99% was not ACTUALLY an accurate number, dear.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:22 am

EqsyLootz wrote:Neutral evils side with mafia. So it's just like killing a mafia member.


well, mafia should be siding with the nuetral evils
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby EqsyLootz » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:35 am

kyuss420 wrote:
EqsyLootz wrote:Neutral evils side with mafia. So it's just like killing a mafia member.


well, mafia should be siding with the nuetral evils


That's the point.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby macedonianelite » Fri May 08, 2020 12:59 pm

Nyricanmini wrote:First post btw.
As an excuse if i end up being wrong about all this, i've only gotten back into the game about a month and a half ago after playing back around 2015, so i'm a bit nooby. Also this was Ranked Practice, so everyone kinda sucks.

So i was playing Jailor just now, and someone (We'll call them Person 1) claiming LO pointed out someone else as SK(we'll call them Person 2), saying they visited the person who the SK killed. Town believed that Person 1 was exe, trying to target town and had said, "Jailor exe them" I had decided that, yes, they could be exe trying to hang the man, or jester trying to get themselves hung, but i didn't want to waste an execution on them. The reason i say this is because the Jailor can work as a Town Investigative role and Town Killing role at the same time. I believed that I would be more useful to town by finding out roles than to just kill the Exe/Jester. The only exception imo would be if it's Mid/Late game and maf could potentially use them as an extra vote.

After the whole Person 1 ordeal, someone calls for VFR on Person 3, who had gotten defensive and been like "VFR sucks bro, never VFR guys." I thought he was a little sus for trying to avoid claiming, so I jailed them to get their role. I asked for their role, but they had begun to bitch about how VFR sucks, and you should never VFR Day 2, blah blah blah. Since he hadn't claimed, i made the decision to execute him. Person 3 ended up being Vet.
Town begun to bitch about how i hadn't killed the obvious Exe/Jester, and I defended myself saying that i didn't want to waste an exe.

The following night i died.

Person 1 had died the next night, and he ended up actually being LO,. In the end, it wouldn't have mattered, as i would still lose my exes, but should i still have exed him because he seemed to be an obvious Exe/Jester at the time?



This is all highly context-dependent. In higher ELOs, it goes without saying that you execute anything that lies, simply because of the vast amount of plays that involve NK or mafia posing as executioner.

You may also spare a jester, in order for the age-old annoying claim of vigis to confirm themselves, or if the game is at a point where you are forced to broker a deal with the jester/executioner in order to win.

This happened to me in a matchup, where I was sheriff in the following:


GODFATHER

TRANSPORTER
SHERIFF
LOOKOUT


ARSONIST

EXECUTIONER

Our most valuable role was transporter, which was funnily enough executioner's target. At a point in the game where we lost our majority, I went off in a limb and brokered a deal with the executioner, insisting to lynch his target miraculously before any of the other evils paid such attention to it. I voted up the transporter and then posed as NE to the other evils, claiming I was jester and wanted to get lynched, and claiming that the executioner was mafia to arso, and arso to mafia (don't ask me how I pulled this off, it's ridiculous). The arsonist then ignited the godfather and the mafia killed the lookout. It came down to me, the executioner and the arsonist. True to his word, the executioner gave me the win.


The moral of the story is that NEs can be your greatest allies, provided you reach out to them and offer a sweeter degree of diplomacy than other town. Of course you will witness the asshole jesters that haunt you, as happened to me, when I was SK in a matchup of

SERIAL KILLER
SHERIFF
JESTER

and after being the jester's greatest ally, got haunted by them "for more elo bro", resulting in a solo-jester win tie.

It is up to you. More often than not, you can side with them if you have confidence in your sweet-talking skills.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby flairric66 » Mon May 11, 2020 12:10 pm

Kuter wrote:All in all, don't let it get to you, let the whiners complain, yeah its annoying when people get on your ass because you don't play how they want you to play, but that's online for you.


I think this is a really key takeaway. In the heat of the moment of any match a player might say something that they feel right then, but looking back on it later they may feel differently. Such is life.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby TheDarkBrotherhood » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:04 pm

Getting rid of them early game, if they are obvious, might be helpful rather than hurtful. The mafia can try to pretend to be Neutral Evil and discourage the town from killing so they can live longer. You might as well kill off the Neutral Evil early to get a confirmation and reduce the amount of creative plays that the mafia or even the Neutral Killing can conjure up.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby 3cheersforidiots » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:01 am

If you have an exe/jester jailed, you might as well execute them, but you shouldn't be playing to get correct executions with a jester/executioner. It's almost always a better idea to jail someone you think is mafia/coven/NK.
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Re: Jailor executing Jester/Executioner

Postby FrenchyTheSphee » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:24 am

Executing Jester or Executioner is usually a great play

In your situation though I agree with your execute on the veteran since he neither claimed and acted like a dumbass
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