Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

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Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby MrIncendiary88 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:20 pm

Although this sacrifices half the randomness given by an RM spot (which is sometimes bad anyway like double framer), it can almost guarantee a good Mafia role to counter Jailor Meta

Mafia Support can be either;

- Consigliere, a strong role but little impact as town roles will tend to give out their real roles ASAP to make PoE much faster.
As people drift from the Jailor Meta becoming less willing to out their roles, Consigliere could definitely be seeing another rise in power.
- Blackmailer, because of its ability to read whispers and possibly get full info to tell the Mafia by N2 (as opposed to consig who only knows 1 guaranteed role from its ability).
It can also shut up real Jailors when possible and be a really annoying role for town to deal with.
- Consort, able to block people at will to hinder them from using dangerous abilities, one of which is stopping Jailor from executing.
This can be very op if the RM is willing to fake Jailor to basically also get full info if they are the only d1 Jailor claim.

And these roles had I not mentioned Jailor meta are a nice addition to the Mafia team, as opposed to getting 2 weak Mafia Deception roles (ofc lowers chance of double jani game but thats just gg for town if it rolls)
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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby cob709 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:24 pm

/support
This will reduce the swingyness of Ranked.
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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby Ezradekezra » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:02 pm

/support

At least one guaranteed Mafia Support will be a nice buff, seeing how it contains three of the strongest Mafia roles. I'd suggest replacing the other RM slot with a Mafia Deception slot to keep things more balanced, though.
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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby MrIncendiary88 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:07 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:/support

At least one guaranteed Mafia Support will be a nice buff, seeing how it contains three of the strongest Mafia roles. I'd suggest replacing the other RM slot with a Mafia Deception slot to keep things more balanced, though.


IMO Double Maf Support isn’t nearly as bad as double Maf Deception and that if Maf Support dies early the Town get a huge powerspike as they know they don’t have to deal with the strongest Maf roles anymore whereas with at least 1 RM there is still a chance of a Double Maf Support while giving equal chances for Maf Support and Maf Deception to spawn as RM
Good day.
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ELO: ~1530 (GOLD, AND CLIMBING)


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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby kosmo16 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:48 am

I support.
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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby Harryyoshi » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:33 am

I actually don't support this. This is the wrong place to make the game mode less swingy, since the game's outcome depends 10x more on what the Town roles are than the Mafia roles. Sure, it feels bad when you have double Framer, but it also means Town isn't expecting it. Half of the time Framer actually works if you are good at putting suspicion on other people, since Town just assumes Framers are useless. Double deception is fine, I'd rather make all Mafia roles unique than get rid of that instead of this. Firstly, Mafia Support also has the lowest skill-cap plays, so it doesn't correlate well with ranked. In fact, (double) Mafia deception gets better the higher elo you go, the better Disguiser, Forger, and Framer plays get. Blackmailer plays also get a bit better, but the rest of Mafia Support do the exact same thing. If you want ranked to be less swingy, remove Town Support or something that nerfs Town, not buffs Mafia. Mafia Deception and Support plays are good, it's just this is not the place to be less swingy, since once a Mafia Deception is killed, everyone knows there cannot be another one, and that they can't be fooled anymore. Secondly, Mafia Support hinders Neutral Killing as much, if not more than Town. Once Consigliere finds Neutral Killing early game, it's gg. Consort can infinite role block Arsonist to prevent them from igniting, and Blackmailer prevents Witch from going to Neutral Killing before Mafia. Mafia Deception, on the other hand, only harms the opposing majority, in this case, Town, instead of Neutral Killing.

By the way, how does Mafia Support counter Jailor meta? You didn't explain it at all, and I think you mean the opposite, which is bad for your case. Consigliere can find the quiet Jailor and kill them, and quiet Jailors will be outed by the Blackmailer when they try to whisper to confirmed townies.

Also, post these suggestions in Suggestions please.
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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby MrIncendiary88 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:56 am

Harryyoshi wrote:I actually don't support this. This is the wrong place to make the game mode less swingy, since the game's outcome depends 10x more on what the Town roles are than the Mafia roles. Sure, it feels bad when you have double Framer, but it also means Town isn't expecting it. Half of the time Framer actually works if you are good at putting suspicion on other people, since Town just assumes Framers are useless. Double deception is fine, I'd rather make all Mafia roles unique than get rid of that instead of this. Firstly, Mafia Support also has the lowest skill-cap plays, so it doesn't correlate well with ranked. In fact, (double) Mafia deception gets better the higher elo you go, the better Disguiser, Forger, and Framer plays get. Blackmailer plays also get a bit better, but the rest of Mafia Support do the exact same thing. If you want ranked to be less swingy, remove Town Support or something that nerfs Town, not buffs Mafia. Mafia Deception and Support plays are good, it's just this is not the place to be less swingy, since once a Mafia Deception is killed, everyone knows there cannot be another one, and that they can't be fooled anymore. Secondly, Mafia Support hinders Neutral Killing as much, if not more than Town. Once Consigliere finds Neutral Killing early game, it's gg. Consort can infinite role block Arsonist to prevent them from igniting, and Blackmailer prevents Witch from going to Neutral Killing before Mafia. Mafia Deception, on the other hand, only harms the opposing majority, in this case, Town, instead of Neutral Killing.

By the way, how does Mafia Support counter Jailor meta? You didn't explain it at all, and I think you mean the opposite, which is bad for your case. Consigliere can find the quiet Jailor and kill them, and quiet Jailors will be outed by the Blackmailer when they try to whisper to confirmed townies.

Also, post these suggestions in Suggestions please.


Its not all about making it less swingy, sure town doesnt expect double framer but how will you make that an advantage? Without sheriffs or investigators the skill level is not tos anymore, useless abilities then its just a matter of putting basic deception skills to practice in an irl mafia game. Skill is definitely a factor in where people should be ranked but think about balance too. A guaranteed Mafia Support will increase Maf winrate for sure (+ decrease leaving when people get mafia) and as you say have an edge against NK too. NK also has a high skill cap and Mafia are not going to interfere with NK earlygame anyway, most NKs will make suicidal plays.
Good day.
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About MrIncendiary88:

Spoiler: Name: Gerald Felneus
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Last Seen: Counterclaiming a Vigilante
ELO: ~1530 (GOLD, AND CLIMBING)


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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby Harryyoshi » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:30 am

MrIncendiary88 wrote:Its not all about making it less swingy, sure town doesnt expect double framer but how will you make that an advantage? Without sheriffs or investigators the skill level is not tos anymore, useless abilities then its just a matter of putting basic deception skills to practice in an irl mafia game. Skill is definitely a factor in where people should be ranked but think about balance too. A guaranteed Mafia Support will increase Maf winrate for sure (+ decrease leaving when people get mafia) and as you say have an edge against NK too. NK also has a high skill cap and Mafia are not going to interfere with NK earlygame anyway, most NKs will make suicidal plays.

Framer being useless isn't caused by the game mode, and excluding (or limiting) that because of this isn't a good solution. A guaranteed Mafia Support sounds cool, and might increase the win rate, but it also makes Mafia Teams more limited. There is no proof to how Mafia Support change the win rate, as the Mafia team being swingy is better for Mafia than for Town, since they are an informed minority. The real problem here is that people like Mafia Support over Mafia Deception. Simply changing the role list will make the game less swingy, and it will make the game easier for Town since Mafia roles are easier to predict and/or there is less space for certain Mafia roles. Changes should nerf Town, not Neutral Killing. Mafia might interfere with NK earlygame, to prevent them from killing Mafia, and NK being countered by Mafia Support isn't going to help, especially when there is a guaranteed slot for it. Most of the time, balance is not always what roles are in the game. For example, what is Mafia had a Blackmailer and a Mafia deception every time. Town would know that Blackmailer is in the game, even though Blackmailer is over powered, Town has predetermined information. This is an extreme case, but this role list still has this problem. When a Mafia Deception is lynched, Town now knows that the other Mafia has to be Mafia Support, and that they cannot be tricked by a Mafia Deception anymore. This is problematic, since now Town is more informed through the role list, which has nothing to do with skill. Making over-powered Mafia roles guaranteed in ranked isn't going to do anything beneficial, it is just going to make the game less based on skill and more based on the over-powered roles you have on your team. I wouldn't want to trade skill for buffing roles, that's just going to make the game less "find the Mafia that have tricks up their sleeves" and more "Kill all Mafia before you get wrecked". We don't need a Coven 2.0, Mafia is supposed to be based on deception, not over-powered roles like Coven.

Overall, your point on win rate doesn't stand, because other, better solutions exist without the downsides of this one.
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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby OreCreeper » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:38 pm

MrIncendiary88 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:/support

At least one guaranteed Mafia Support will be a nice buff, seeing how it contains three of the strongest Mafia roles. I'd suggest replacing the other RM slot with a Mafia Deception slot to keep things more balanced, though.


IMO Double Maf Support isn’t nearly as bad as double Maf Deception and that if Maf Support dies early the Town get a huge powerspike as they know they don’t have to deal with the strongest Maf roles anymore whereas with at least 1 RM there is still a chance of a Double Maf Support while giving equal chances for Maf Support and Maf Deception to spawn as RM

I would disagree. Double blackmailer SUCKS especially when you have to get one of your RM to visit the jailor n1 to unconfirm TPs. If you do that it means no one will whisper anymore and you won't get any info, and if you don't all TPs are confirmed. Not to mention having two blackmailers is usually no better than having just one, unless you're doing the annoying "blackmail the same person for the entire game" strat but there's countless ways in which that could go wrong and it's overall just a bad strat and really annoying.
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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby cob709 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:41 pm

OreCreeper wrote:
MrIncendiary88 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:/support

At least one guaranteed Mafia Support will be a nice buff, seeing how it contains three of the strongest Mafia roles. I'd suggest replacing the other RM slot with a Mafia Deception slot to keep things more balanced, though.


IMO Double Maf Support isn’t nearly as bad as double Maf Deception and that if Maf Support dies early the Town get a huge powerspike as they know they don’t have to deal with the strongest Maf roles anymore whereas with at least 1 RM there is still a chance of a Double Maf Support while giving equal chances for Maf Support and Maf Deception to spawn as RM

I would disagree. Double blackmailer SUCKS especially when you have to get one of your RM to visit the jailor n1 to unconfirm TPs. If you do that it means no one will whisper anymore and you won't get any info, and if you don't all TPs are confirmed. Not to mention having two blackmailers is usually no better than having just one, unless you're doing the annoying "blackmail the same person for the entire game" strat but there's countless ways in which that could go wrong and it's overall just a bad strat and really annoying.

You either get info, or you prevent town from getting info. I don't see a problem with that.

It's about how they use it, blackmail important people, let the dumb ones speak
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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby kosmo16 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:06 am

cob709 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
MrIncendiary88 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:/support

At least one guaranteed Mafia Support will be a nice buff, seeing how it contains three of the strongest Mafia roles. I'd suggest replacing the other RM slot with a Mafia Deception slot to keep things more balanced, though.


IMO Double Maf Support isn’t nearly as bad as double Maf Deception and that if Maf Support dies early the Town get a huge powerspike as they know they don’t have to deal with the strongest Maf roles anymore whereas with at least 1 RM there is still a chance of a Double Maf Support while giving equal chances for Maf Support and Maf Deception to spawn as RM

I would disagree. Double blackmailer SUCKS especially when you have to get one of your RM to visit the jailor n1 to unconfirm TPs. If you do that it means no one will whisper anymore and you won't get any info, and if you don't all TPs are confirmed. Not to mention having two blackmailers is usually no better than having just one, unless you're doing the annoying "blackmail the same person for the entire game" strat but there's countless ways in which that could go wrong and it's overall just a bad strat and really annoying.

You either get info, or you prevent town from getting info. I don't see a problem with that.

It's about how they use it, blackmail important people, let the dumb ones speak


How often they blackmail you? :SMILE:
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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby cob709 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:27 pm

kosmo16 wrote:
cob709 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
MrIncendiary88 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:/support

At least one guaranteed Mafia Support will be a nice buff, seeing how it contains three of the strongest Mafia roles. I'd suggest replacing the other RM slot with a Mafia Deception slot to keep things more balanced, though.


IMO Double Maf Support isn’t nearly as bad as double Maf Deception and that if Maf Support dies early the Town get a huge powerspike as they know they don’t have to deal with the strongest Maf roles anymore whereas with at least 1 RM there is still a chance of a Double Maf Support while giving equal chances for Maf Support and Maf Deception to spawn as RM

I would disagree. Double blackmailer SUCKS especially when you have to get one of your RM to visit the jailor n1 to unconfirm TPs. If you do that it means no one will whisper anymore and you won't get any info, and if you don't all TPs are confirmed. Not to mention having two blackmailers is usually no better than having just one, unless you're doing the annoying "blackmail the same person for the entire game" strat but there's countless ways in which that could go wrong and it's overall just a bad strat and really annoying.

You either get info, or you prevent town from getting info. I don't see a problem with that.

It's about how they use it, blackmail important people, let the dumb ones speak


How often they blackmail you? :SMILE:

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Re: Replace one RM role with Maf Support in Classic Ranked

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:42 pm

cob709 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
MrIncendiary88 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:/support

At least one guaranteed Mafia Support will be a nice buff, seeing how it contains three of the strongest Mafia roles. I'd suggest replacing the other RM slot with a Mafia Deception slot to keep things more balanced, though.


IMO Double Maf Support isn’t nearly as bad as double Maf Deception and that if Maf Support dies early the Town get a huge powerspike as they know they don’t have to deal with the strongest Maf roles anymore whereas with at least 1 RM there is still a chance of a Double Maf Support while giving equal chances for Maf Support and Maf Deception to spawn as RM

I would disagree. Double blackmailer SUCKS especially when you have to get one of your RM to visit the jailor n1 to unconfirm TPs. If you do that it means no one will whisper anymore and you won't get any info, and if you don't all TPs are confirmed. Not to mention having two blackmailers is usually no better than having just one, unless you're doing the annoying "blackmail the same person for the entire game" strat but there's countless ways in which that could go wrong and it's overall just a bad strat and really annoying.

You either get info, or you prevent town from getting info. I don't see a problem with that.

It's about how they use it, blackmail important people, let the dumb ones speak

"Important people" are not the same thing as "smart people". You can have a really smart medium or sheriff, or a really dumb jailor or mayor. Pretty much everyone who uses the strategy "get rid of the smart players first" are dumb players themselves, because if you leave a "dumb" mayor, jailor, transporter, and the such alive, they're still gonna realize pretty quickly that no one else can be it and you're still busted, unless the gamemode in question is classic mode in which case I'd just say do whatever the fuck you want, town's not gonna be smart enough to figure out you're evil. If they lynch you, it's probably by luck and there's very little you can do about that. Blackmailing "important" people can be a really dumb idea too, especially if it's a revealed jailor/mayor or another known confirmed townie, since any lookouts would catch you, or transporters may trans them away. Most of the time, it's smart to not blackmail at all. Most of blackmailer's early-mid game use is by reading whispers. However, you also need mafia to visit the jailor n1 or all the TPs/spies/escorts will be confirmed. With a double blackmailer, you can't do that, or you risk throwing out most of your random mafia's usefulness. Blackmailing is actually a pretty shitty way at hiding info. If your target is a TI, for example, observant townies would probably push whoever they were spam-voting because those people are usually the evils they found. Also, again, a lot of things can go wrong while trying to blackmail. Hitting a jailed target just outs the existence of a blackmailer for no reason. Overall, double BMer is probably worse than double framer or double disguiser imo. At least with double disguiser, you can really fuck with the RTs and confuse town a lot. Double BMer is just ass.
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