The "Jailor Meta"

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The "Jailor Meta"

Postby Crona111 » Sun May 10, 2020 12:47 am

So one topic you can't escape on this forum, no matter where you go, is "The Jailor Meta". This meta has plagued this forum lately, or this is how it seems, and is a hot topic every where we can see. So what is this meta, and why is it so controversial? Note: This is a mix of my own observations, opinions, what I've seen on this forum and actual experience playing this role. Anything I say here can be wrong, and things I say here you can disagree with

"Tp/Lo on me"
Have you ever heard the term "tp/lo on me" when playing any ranked/ranked practice game, but not knowing what it means, or why the jailor is outing themselves D1? Well this happens nearly every game, and not many people understand it. What the Jailor is calling is for the Town Protective, which is most likely Doctor or Bodyguard to watch the Jailor, while the Lookout watches. This gives the Jailor protection D1, while confirming the Jailor and forcing the Evils to claim. But this isn't the main purpose of this calling. The point of this is to be able to confirm as many Townies as possible. If a lookout watches the jailor, and 2 people visit the jailor, and one claims Doctor the other claims Bodyguard, while Spy says no Mafia has visited the Jailor, it immediately confirms the Lookout, Doctor, Bodyguard, Jailor and Spy. That's 5/9 roles confirmed. Then, you just need to confirm the last 4 town members, 1 more TI, one more TK and 2 RT. Town Killing can also be confirmed by the Jailor telling the Vigi to shoot x person, or a Veteran killing on their Alert. So within the span of D2, so many town roles are confirmed, and Jailor is protected. Now they just need to confirm, or just lynch, everybody else. It's easy.

Now another part of this confirmation process after D2 is the Jailor, well doing Jailor things. Jailor is a major town role because it does everything. It can kill evils, force claims, roleblock and protect, all at once. This means the Jailor can force people to claim even more. If there's a TI that outs the Mafia, or a Mayor is revealed, the jailor can not jail an evil, and jail them to protect them from dying. Or, if there's a Vigilante, and too many Claims that are possible, Town can lynch one claim, shoot the other and jail the last. The Jailor itself is also extremely powerful, which is why it's normally the Jailor that calls out for the Town Protective, not anybody else (unless Mayor). The Jailor can whisper with other TI's, and RTs, asking for their roles, will and anything else, and leads the town that way. It makes it impossible for Evils to claim and have an accurate will because the Jailor has whispered with other Town roles, and has seen Wills that can be confirmed as true.

The last major compartment of this is just protecting the Jailor. As I just said, Jailor is an extremely powerful role, so much so that It's seen as the best role in the game for how much it can do and how much power it holds. So keeping this powerful role alive is critical for any town if they want to win, and have a consistent way to kill evils or prevent kills. Having both a Lookout and the Town Protective(s) on the Jailor means that any Evil that tries to visit the Jailor is caught, and any attack is prevented, with Lookout seeing it all. It gives the Jailor multiple layers of defense, that when eventually taken down, makes him a safe target to kill, but by then, there's typically 1 mafia left.

The good
Now, it's hard to fairly talk about this Meta without talking about the positives it brings, and reasons people claim it's balanced. Like any Strat, it exists for a reason, and it wouldn't be such a common place strat if it was ineffective or bad

One good thing about this Meta is that it empowers the town and boosts their chances to win. Town wants to confirm as many of their members as possible as fast as possible to start lynching those that are evil/wont work with them. This meta is the most effective way to confirm fellow town members, which is the #1 priority for town.

Another good reason for the Jailor meta existing is that it makes the game more interesting in a way, where the evils need to try and discover and learn who the Town Protective/Lookout is before all roles are confirmed and kill them to get to Jailor, all while not getting lynched and keeping their own claim too. It makes the a lot more of a mindgame rather than just randomly killing members, and it means that the Mafia needs to think harder to stay alive, and higher level mafia plays are required.

The bad
I wouldn't be writing this semi-essay if there was no bad things about this Strat, and there are a lot of reasons against this strat, which is what I'll be focusing on here.

One bad thing about this Meta is that it empowers the town and boosts their chances to win. Now if you realized I copy pasted that sentence from the Good section, there's a reason. While it does boost the towns chance of winning extremely, it also reduces the chance of evils winning so much, that it's insane. Town already has some f the strongest roles in the game, and already has the numbers, so the odds are already not in any evils favour, but now you have this efficient way to confirm townies, which makes the best faction even better, so much so that nobody wants to play mafia. This strat seriously cripples any evil, rendering most evils useless.

Another bad thing about this meta is that it breaks immersion. A lot of people, myself included, like the aspect of having to keep your role hidden until absolutely necessary, and how it makes this game feel realer than it actually is. Having the jailor yell "TP/LO on me" and revealing themselves D1 shatters the immersion, because Jailor is supposed to be a hidden role, a jailor forced into hiding to prevent himself from dying. Being immersed in the game affects how much I enjoy the game, (which is why Pirate is my favourite role, cause I always Roleplay as a pirtate lol)

Solutions? Does it need to be fixed?

This meta has its ups and downs, and a solution/fix may or not be necessary. Now, I am in no position to suggest changes, due to how inexperienced I am currently, but I have a minor change that will help reduce the effectiveness of this strat: Just add the Crusador role from Coven to Classic. Now I understand this wont fix everything, and makes Coven less allusive, but Crusador (Alongside Tracker) already seems like something that should be in classic, and will nerf the meta, without completely surgically removing it from the game

Thanks for reading this long ass post, I hope this is informative enough to help people understand what this meta is and why it's so distruptive. Feel free to correct me on any changes, errors or typos you can find here.
The day I win as arsonist is the day the Jailor meta dies
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby BlastingOff » Sun May 10, 2020 1:27 pm

afaik, devs don't want to add Coven roles into classic

Also, there are currently talks about balance in an official thread in the Feedback subforum, you will have more success there if you want to suggest any changes that could help with balance issues.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby kyuss420 » Mon May 11, 2020 2:20 am

i dont understand why people think certain roles are meant to be ''hidden'' roles.

I mean, as an evil, roles like sheriff are low priority to me, theyre basically checking suspicious people who are going to be pushed/lynched regardless whether theyre checked or not, they cant stop you from targeting anyone (like TP/escort/trans), they cant see you targeting anyone (like LO/tracker) and as such, when I roll sheriff, I claim day 2 and let town know who was inno. If I die n2, then the evil faction just wasted a night on a low priority target, so its a bonus to town. I get invited into ranked practise and get lynched/jailed/shot becuase ''you claimed day 2 as TI, only scum do that''

Then I have games where you have to wait for roles to die on N4, so you can read their wills, and you see that valuable bit of info from n2 that would of saved a mislynch that day. Thats the ''I have to remain hidden, even if it means lynching a townie'' mentality.

When in games with a ''hidden'' jailor, im too scared to shoot as vigi, Even if Ive got the claims down to a 50/50 or better, this happens a lot in AA, which is fair enough, but even with the claims that do come, and people (usually the quiet ones you suspected were jailor) claiming they were jailed, it isnt hard to pin point the silent jailor as an evil. Ive usually got it down to 2 possibilities by n3.

So basically, in a game with a set role list, No, no role is meant to be a hidden role. Claiming early as possible, settles disputes between claims and counter claims early as possible, and if youre trying to do that late game, its a coin flip whether you win or not. Staying hidden gives evils room to hide.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby woahah » Mon May 11, 2020 5:01 am

i dont exactly get what you are trying to accomplish with this
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby kosmo16 » Tue May 19, 2020 4:09 am

The "Jailor meta" can be countered by evils.

First of all, one of the Mafia members have to visit Jailor N1 to deny confirmation of 5/9 people D2 (e.g. double Spy, double TP, Jailor). This can be done in each game, even if you have 2 Blackmailers, just send a Blackmailer.

There are 3 roles which are great counter to this strategy:
Arsonist
Consort
Witch

Arsonist can just kill Jailor N2 without any repercussions.
Consort and Witch can just deny execution. With Consort, the Mafia can just hard commit to mislynch D2 and Jailor won't be able to punish them. With parity D3 evils usually win. There are other factors like which NK and which TSs are in the game. Mayor, Transporter and Retributionist may cause some troubles.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby Descender » Tue May 19, 2020 9:03 am

if arsonist kills jailor n2, it loses all edge it has
witch is a good point though

still, confirmed jailor.
The platform reached lower and lower depths into the new world, a dark world in which not many had been before. It would seem that my stories of going into this other world be praised, but no. It would seem that I would be known as a hero for discovering this, but no. To many I was simply known as... Descender.

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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby wozearly » Wed May 20, 2020 4:27 am

kosmo16 wrote:The "Jailor meta" can be countered by evils.

First of all, one of the Mafia members have to visit Jailor N1 to deny confirmation of 5/9 people D2 (e.g. double Spy, double TP, Jailor). This can be done in each game, even if you have 2 Blackmailers, just send a Blackmailer.

There are 3 roles which are great counter to this strategy:
Arsonist
Consort
Witch

Arsonist can just kill Jailor N2 without any repercussions.
Consort and Witch can just deny execution. With Consort, the Mafia can just hard commit to mislynch D2 and Jailor won't be able to punish them. With parity D3 evils usually win. There are other factors like which NK and which TSs are in the game. Mayor, Transporter and Retributionist may cause some troubles.


Evils can attempt to counter, but this involves them taking a reasonably high risk as counters typically involve repeat-visiting the Jailor, or visiting the Jailor on N1 when the rolelist is unknown.

The Lookout is the central supporting role to the Jailor meta, and will statistically be there in 50% of games. The Jailor meta makes LO next to impossible to fake claim; the odds of the Mafia correctly predicting the N1 visitors are very small, and if there are two competing LO wills the Jailor can generally follow-up with whispers to confirm which is legitimate. The Lookout massively increases the risk of the counters you suggest.

Arsonist
Being a N1 visitor, the Arsonist is forced to claim Lookout, Spy, Escort or TP. When the Arsonist ignites and kills the Jailor N2, they will be outed by the Lookout as someone who DID NOT visit on N2.

Claiming LO or TP-not-on-jailor are both incredibly dodgy, unless the Jailor or confirmed LO happened to instruct you to be on someone else D2 (which is just blind luck) and this can be evidenced.
Claiming Escort is only viable if there is an Escort in play (or a Consort who did an N1 visit to Jailor) and the Jailor confirms in their will they were roleblocked. However, a real Escort will cc and Arso will struggle to hold an Escort claim beyond D3. It would also reveal Arso to the Consort, if a Consort is being relied on.
Claiming Spy leaves you open to cc from an actual Spy. Arso lacks the info to effectively fake a Spy will, so any real Spies and, crucially, all Mafia members will know the identity of the Arso.

All of the above are death sentences to the Arsonist.

Arsonist can only safely counter the Jailor meta in situations where there is no Lookout; otherwise they're really just killing themselves to give the Mafia a better chance. That's a huge risk for the Arsonist to take - the only reason they do is that the Arsonist winrate is so low that the benefits of having a Jailor-free run on the 50% of times they get away with it is marginally in their interests.

Witch
Witch can lock down the Jailor, but in Lookout games will be forced to claim Lookout, Spy, Escort or TP. Town will also know for certain that one of the Jailor's visitors must be the Witch.

Claiming LO is impractical - the real LO and actual visitors will rip the claim apart.
Claiming Escort is only possible if there is an Escort/Consort, and unless the Mafia or NK immediately kill the Lookout, that claim will be wrecked on D3.
Claiming Spy is possible only if there are no real Spies. The slight advantage is that the Mafia will recognise who the Witch is with this route. The disadvantage is that a competent LO/Jailor will probably ask you to stop bugging the Jailor to prove you're not the Witch - again, requiring an immediate Lookout kill to protect you.
Claiming TP is a possibility. With the Witch's defence, they could get away with marking themselves as a potential target to the Mafia, at cost of wasting a night kill.

The Witch is only available in 1/3 games, and by focusing heavily on the Jailor to prevent executions, has to sacrifice their ability to disrupt the Town in other ways that may be more effective (Jailors rarely execute every night).

Consort
Consort can lock down the Jailor, but in Lookout games will be forced to claim Lookout, Spy, Escort or TP. In Spy games, Town will know for certain that one of the Jailor's visitors was Mafia; likely a Consort, Framer or Forger.

Claiming LO - good luck.
Claiming Escort - death sentence in a Spy game, but otherwise will be a solid claim. However, the usual warnings of Consorts ideally not claiming Escort apply; any obviously wrecking roleblocks will reveal you openly as Mafia.
Claiming TP/Spy - both good options initially, but once the Jailor has established a Consort is roleblocking them it's likely the LO/Jailor will try to mix up visitors to the Jailor to identify the Consort. Unless the LO is killed immediately, it's likely your claim will be exposed.

The Consort is only available in about 1/4 to 1/5 games.


Actually fixing the Jailor meta
The Jailor meta can most easily be solved via changes to the Lookout, such as limiting the number of visitors they can identify by name (e.g. only receiving the names of 2 visitors, irrespective of how many visitors there were). This would allow any RM visit to disrupt the flow of information going to the LO and introduce the risk of two LOs having legitimately different wills for the same target, reducing LO confirmability and improving fake LO claims.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby kosmo16 » Wed May 20, 2020 5:08 am

Google wrote:if arsonist kills jailor n2, it loses all edge it has
witch is a good point though

still, confirmed jailor.


Consort is the easiest counter. To made a play as the Witch is a little bit harder.

I haven't tried this strategy to douse Jailor N1 and ignite N2, but if you can keep parity then you should have a chance for winning the game.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby Descender » Wed May 20, 2020 5:17 am

kosmo16 wrote:
Google wrote:if arsonist kills jailor n2, it loses all edge it has
witch is a good point though

still, confirmed jailor.


Consort is the easiest counter. To made a play as the Witch is a little bit harder.

I haven't tried this strategy to douse Jailor N1 and ignite N2, but if you can keep parity then you should have a chance for winning the game.

still, youve lost a douse and there is a confirmed arsonist.
The platform reached lower and lower depths into the new world, a dark world in which not many had been before. It would seem that my stories of going into this other world be praised, but no. It would seem that I would be known as a hero for discovering this, but no. To many I was simply known as... Descender.

I tend to go between cute and distorted hellscapes for pfps. I dont know why.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby kosmo16 » Wed May 20, 2020 5:21 am

wozearly wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:The "Jailor meta" can be countered by evils.

First of all, one of the Mafia members have to visit Jailor N1 to deny confirmation of 5/9 people D2 (e.g. double Spy, double TP, Jailor). This can be done in each game, even if you have 2 Blackmailers, just send a Blackmailer.

There are 3 roles which are great counter to this strategy:
Arsonist
Consort
Witch

Arsonist can just kill Jailor N2 without any repercussions.
Consort and Witch can just deny execution. With Consort, the Mafia can just hard commit to mislynch D2 and Jailor won't be able to punish them. With parity D3 evils usually win. There are other factors like which NK and which TSs are in the game. Mayor, Transporter and Retributionist may cause some troubles.


Evils can attempt to counter, but this involves them taking a reasonably high risk as counters typically involve repeat-visiting the Jailor, or visiting the Jailor on N1 when the rolelist is unknown.

The Lookout is the central supporting role to the Jailor meta, and will statistically be there in 50% of games. The Jailor meta makes LO next to impossible to fake claim; the odds of the Mafia correctly predicting the N1 visitors are very small, and if there are two competing LO wills the Jailor can generally follow-up with whispers to confirm which is legitimate. The Lookout massively increases the risk of the counters you suggest.

Arsonist
Being a N1 visitor, the Arsonist is forced to claim Lookout, Spy, Escort or TP. When the Arsonist ignites and kills the Jailor N2, they will be outed by the Lookout as someone who DID NOT visit on N2.

Claiming LO or TP-not-on-jailor are both incredibly dodgy, unless the Jailor or confirmed LO happened to instruct you to be on someone else D2 (which is just blind luck) and this can be evidenced.
Claiming Escort is only viable if there is an Escort in play (or a Consort who did an N1 visit to Jailor) and the Jailor confirms in their will they were roleblocked. However, a real Escort will cc and Arso will struggle to hold an Escort claim beyond D3. It would also reveal Arso to the Consort, if a Consort is being relied on.
Claiming Spy leaves you open to cc from an actual Spy. Arso lacks the info to effectively fake a Spy will, so any real Spies and, crucially, all Mafia members will know the identity of the Arso.

All of the above are death sentences to the Arsonist.

Arsonist can only safely counter the Jailor meta in situations where there is no Lookout; otherwise they're really just killing themselves to give the Mafia a better chance. That's a huge risk for the Arsonist to take - the only reason they do is that the Arsonist winrate is so low that the benefits of having a Jailor-free run on the 50% of times they get away with it is marginally in their interests.

Witch
Witch can lock down the Jailor, but in Lookout games will be forced to claim Lookout, Spy, Escort or TP. Town will also know for certain that one of the Jailor's visitors must be the Witch.

Claiming LO is impractical - the real LO and actual visitors will rip the claim apart.
Claiming Escort is only possible if there is an Escort/Consort, and unless the Mafia or NK immediately kill the Lookout, that claim will be wrecked on D3.
Claiming Spy is possible only if there are no real Spies. The slight advantage is that the Mafia will recognise who the Witch is with this route. The disadvantage is that a competent LO/Jailor will probably ask you to stop bugging the Jailor to prove you're not the Witch - again, requiring an immediate Lookout kill to protect you.
Claiming TP is a possibility. With the Witch's defence, they could get away with marking themselves as a potential target to the Mafia, at cost of wasting a night kill.

The Witch is only available in 1/3 games, and by focusing heavily on the Jailor to prevent executions, has to sacrifice their ability to disrupt the Town in other ways that may be more effective (Jailors rarely execute every night).

Consort
Consort can lock down the Jailor, but in Lookout games will be forced to claim Lookout, Spy, Escort or TP. In Spy games, Town will know for certain that one of the Jailor's visitors was Mafia; likely a Consort, Framer or Forger.

Claiming LO - good luck.
Claiming Escort - death sentence in a Spy game, but otherwise will be a solid claim. However, the usual warnings of Consorts ideally not claiming Escort apply; any obviously wrecking roleblocks will reveal you openly as Mafia.
Claiming TP/Spy - both good options initially, but once the Jailor has established a Consort is roleblocking them it's likely the LO/Jailor will try to mix up visitors to the Jailor to identify the Consort. Unless the LO is killed immediately, it's likely your claim will be exposed.

The Consort is only available in about 1/4 to 1/5 games.


Actually fixing the Jailor meta
The Jailor meta can most easily be solved via changes to the Lookout, such as limiting the number of visitors they can identify by name (e.g. only receiving the names of 2 visitors, irrespective of how many visitors there were). This would allow any RM visit to disrupt the flow of information going to the LO and introduce the risk of two LOs having legitimately different wills for the same target, reducing LO confirmability and improving fake LO claims.


So I claim nothing D3 and Town doesn't have majority to lynch me. The main idea behind the strat is to have 3+ Town members dead without any dead evils after N2. Town is not able to do anything.

Google wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:
Google wrote:if arsonist kills jailor n2, it loses all edge it has
witch is a good point though

still, confirmed jailor.


Consort is the easiest counter. To made a play as the Witch is a little bit harder.

I haven't tried this strategy to douse Jailor N1 and ignite N2, but if you can keep parity then you should have a chance for winning the game.

still, youve lost a douse and there is a confirmed arsonist.


How Town can know who is the Arsonist?
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby Descender » Wed May 20, 2020 5:30 am

they don't, but they not there is definitely an arsonist and not, say, an afk sk
The platform reached lower and lower depths into the new world, a dark world in which not many had been before. It would seem that my stories of going into this other world be praised, but no. It would seem that I would be known as a hero for discovering this, but no. To many I was simply known as... Descender.

I tend to go between cute and distorted hellscapes for pfps. I dont know why.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby kosmo16 » Wed May 20, 2020 10:13 am

Google wrote:they don't, but they not there is definitely an arsonist and not, say, an afk sk


I can assure you that when there is no kill N1/N2, 100% of Town suspects exsistance of Arsonist.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby kyuss420 » Wed May 20, 2020 11:01 am

Nerf LO to only see 1 visitor hehehe
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby Descender » Wed May 20, 2020 11:33 am

kosmo16 wrote:
Google wrote:they don't, but they not there is definitely an arsonist and not, say, an afk sk


I can assure you that when there is no kill N1/N2, 100% of Town suspects exsistance of Arsonist.

you still lose a douse, and suspecting an arsonist is much better than a confirmed arsonist.
The platform reached lower and lower depths into the new world, a dark world in which not many had been before. It would seem that my stories of going into this other world be praised, but no. It would seem that I would be known as a hero for discovering this, but no. To many I was simply known as... Descender.

I tend to go between cute and distorted hellscapes for pfps. I dont know why.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby kosmo16 » Thu May 21, 2020 2:53 am

Google wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:
Google wrote:they don't, but they not there is definitely an arsonist and not, say, an afk sk


I can assure you that when there is no kill N1/N2, 100% of Town suspects exsistance of Arsonist.

you still lose a douse, and suspecting an arsonist is much better than a confirmed arsonist.


Last time I won as Arsonist when I ignited Jailor N2. Second ignite was on 2 Mafia members for the win with Executioner.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby Descender » Thu May 21, 2020 6:20 am

kosmo16 wrote:
Google wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:
Google wrote:they don't, but they not there is definitely an arsonist and not, say, an afk sk


I can assure you that when there is no kill N1/N2, 100% of Town suspects exsistance of Arsonist.

you still lose a douse, and suspecting an arsonist is much better than a confirmed arsonist.


Last time I won as Arsonist when I ignited Jailor N2. Second ignite was on 2 Mafia members for the win with Executioner.

still harder
The platform reached lower and lower depths into the new world, a dark world in which not many had been before. It would seem that my stories of going into this other world be praised, but no. It would seem that I would be known as a hero for discovering this, but no. To many I was simply known as... Descender.

I tend to go between cute and distorted hellscapes for pfps. I dont know why.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby wozearly » Thu May 21, 2020 8:36 pm

kosmo16 wrote:So I claim nothing D3 and Town doesn't have majority to lynch me. The main idea behind the strat is to have 3+ Town members dead without any dead evils after N2. Town is not able to do anything.


I get the logic, but it's a tall order with a lot of risk attached.

Firstly, it places a lot of pressure on the meta-disrupting role for D2, when they're most at risk of being forced to claim an indefensible role. As described in my post, it's generally not in the interests of the NK or NE to do this on behalf of the Mafia, with the arguable exception of Arsonist.

Secondly, it requires that Mafia and NK between them secure an absolute minimum of 3 Town kills in 2 nights, with no losses from the scum side. That's a pretty high threshold to cross, and almost certainly requires a successful NE play or Mafia-led mislynch on D2; arguably the hardest day to force a mislynch against an experienced Town who would prefer to VFR at that early stage.

Thirdly, it requires that Town have no 'rescuing' roles active on D3. Escort, Vigilante, Retri and Mayor can all blow this strategy apart, as they can allow Town to block the Mafia without needing voting majority. TP + Jailor would also be able to hold Town in the game provided the Jailor executes one of the Mafia N3 (even with blind guesswork, they'll achieve this 50% of the time). Transporter and Veteran could also be pitfalls if the Mafia is unlucky with their target.

Fourthly, it requires the NK to side with the Mafia in the voting D3, rather than to side with the Town. Lumping the NK in with 'scum' collectively is a common mistake to make, but in practice the NK has limited incentive to go along with this; it comes with a huge risk of handing Mafia control of the game, it identifies them as non-Town to the Town, and also means the Mafia can narrow down the identity of the NK to (at best) one of two players. If the NE is known, the NK openly reveals themselves to the Mafia. Generally speaking, it would be a better play for the NK to side with Town at that point and then try to ensure they kill a separate Town target from the Mafia, leaving them in a pseudo-kingmaker situation again the following day with regard to voting control, and leaving Mafia uncertain as to who they are.

To secure a transition to outright Mafia voting control on D4, the Mafia actually requires 4 Town kills for no Mafia deaths by D3 (assuming the NK becomes temporarily Town-sided).


It may well be that the odds of getting a Mafia win are still improved by trying to disrupt the Jailor meta in this way. but that just underlines why the Jailor meta isn't doing anything good for game balance.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby kosmo16 » Tue May 26, 2020 5:55 am

wozearly wrote:Firstly, it places a lot of pressure on the meta-disrupting role for D2, when they're most at risk of being forced to claim an indefensible role. As described in my post, it's generally not in the interests of the NK or NE to do this on behalf of the Mafia, with the arguable exception of Arsonist.

I can't see why they can feel pressured D2. If Mafia attempts mislynch they are safe.

wozearly wrote:Secondly, it requires that Mafia and NK between them secure an absolute minimum of 3 Town kills in 2 nights, with no losses from the scum side. That's a pretty high threshold to cross, and almost certainly requires a successful NE play or Mafia-led mislynch on D2; arguably the hardest day to force a mislynch against an experienced Town who would prefer to VFR at that early stage.

D2 is the easiest day to force mislynch. On other days there are less players and more information for the Town, thus harder to mislynch.

wozearly wrote:Thirdly, it requires that Town have no 'rescuing' roles active on D3. Escort, Vigilante, Retri and Mayor can all blow this strategy apart, as they can allow Town to block the Mafia without needing voting majority. TP + Jailor would also be able to hold Town in the game provided the Jailor executes one of the Mafia N3 (even with blind guesswork, they'll achieve this 50% of the time). Transporter and Veteran could also be pitfalls if the Mafia is unlucky with their target.

That's true Mayor/Retributionist/Vigilante/Escort can save the game. About 50% for win/loss scneario with good execution N3. I take it as Mafia.
wozearly wrote:Fourthly, it requires the NK to side with the Mafia in the voting D3, rather than to side with the Town. Lumping the NK in with 'scum' collectively is a common mistake to make, but in practice the NK has limited incentive to go along with this; it comes with a huge risk of handing Mafia control of the game, it identifies them as non-Town to the Town, and also means the Mafia can narrow down the identity of the NK to (at best) one of two players. If the NE is known, the NK openly reveals themselves to the Mafia. Generally speaking, it would be a better play for the NK to side with Town at that point and then try to ensure they kill a separate Town target from the Mafia, leaving them in a pseudo-kingmaker situation again the following day with regard to voting control, and leaving Mafia uncertain as to who they are.

If the Mafia goes all-in D3, NK has no choice, but to play with them. If you don't, you give the control over the game to the Town, which would probably exterminate the Mafia and the NK in transition. As NK you are just making sure that neither faction is in control. It's easy to achieve with SK, harder with WW and requires some luck/skill with Arso.
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Re: The "Jailor Meta"

Postby TheLeaper » Tue May 26, 2020 9:47 am

Town already wins so many Ranked/Ranked Practice matches that this "meta" makes it even more impossible for evils to win those modes.
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