Retri re-work options
Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:15 pm
Shout out to Brilliand for his help in getting this up to speed.
There are a ton of options for a retri re-work and I wanted to go over the options and lay out the pros and cons. I will edit this post to keep it up to date:
Current Retributionist (to set a baseline):
strengths: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Ret and revived player are both confirmed.
Pros: Very interesting addition to the game.
Cons: Waaay too useful to town.
Fun: Not that much really.
Reworks!
Something completely different
Light side necromancer
you know the witch necromancer (from coven)? That exept you can only choose town and THEY decide what they do that night. You get the results. (unless they quit, in which case I would suggest you let the ret decide). Would either require each person only being rezed once due to BG or Limited use of abilities.
Strengths: Allows town to use the abilities of the dead!
pros: no auto confirm for either person (med would be able to confirm ones exists only), lets all the dead play a bit. Also less boring.
cons: would probably be complex to program. Devs might not be happy about not fully using their Rez mechanic.
Fun: Much more fun for the ret as you can do stuff at night!
Light side necromancer (buffed)
you know the witch necromancer (from coven)? That exept you can only choose town and THEY decide what they do that night. (unless they quit, in which case I would suggest you let the ret decide). They also alive the next day and night only. Would either require each person only being rezed once due to BG or Limited use of abilities.
Strengths: Allows town to use the abilities of the dead! Confirms med and ret, gets dead info. Extra voting power.
pros: lets all the dead play a bit. Also less boring. Super powerful roles won't be able to just rejoin the game forever.
cons: Ret is still a bit overpowered.
Fun: Much more fun for the ret as you can do stuff at night? Also, ret is much more involved and tactical.
Your father
remove the ret. Gone. Never going to happen, but still listing it.
Strengths: replaced with another role.
pros: Fixes that specific balancing issue.
cons: never going to happen. Also removes ret.
Fun: N/A
Arso of life
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=87251
(Note, has to cast on someone the night they die)
Strengths: can rez and confirm a ton of people, confirm ret, dead knowledge, confirm med.
pros: makes the role more interesting and punishes lynches. It also makes evil ret claims more viable.
cons: complex and easily identifiable if it exists. It can be frustrating for the dead as you would need to put them in a separate dead chat. Essentially a weaker doc, even if it confirms them.
Fun: Interesting, but not really all that fun. Really it is like a worse doc.
TK of revenge
Match dead people with their killers, and attack the killer if you do it right!
Strengths: Risk-free vig. With unlimited ammo.
pros: Cool and interesting joining of the sheriff and vig. Interesting to play fits with the name
cons: Low-risk tk that would be quite strong. Also, devs would never replace the ret with this.
Fun: Lots of fun as you try and discover the killer.
Charun's transporter
Select two people, if one of them dies you may choose to kill the other person and resurrect the one that died. If the other person dies, you may no longer resurrect the original target. You may trigger this while dead. You may use this ability as often as you want. (If either target is evil you cannot activate it. There is an argument for not adding this as they won't know the role of the second target, but being able to activate it at any point would be game-changing.)
pros: even trade-off with a slight positive if used tactically.
cons: Who has no idea what townie you are killing, so you could end up rezing the jailor for a mayor or worse, killing a secret jailor to rez a sheriff.
Fun: for the ret? A good balance. The role is interesting. For the voluntold second rate late BGs? Not so much.
Life through death
Bodyguard of the dead:
You die, but your target comes back to life! Otherwise works as normal
strengths: Town confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. The revived player is confirmed.
pros: ret is no longer overpowered!
cons: Boring and less satisfying. Everyone would rather get BG than this as at least they can do stuff with self vesting and possibly kill an evil. That or like a boring Amnesiac.
Fun: Even less fun than normal ret, impressive.
revive by death
Ret can only revive a role AFTER dying.
Strengths: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. The revived player is confirmed. The revive can't be prevented at all. No worries about being RBed.
pros: more interesting die to rez a target as they essentially act like a jester. It would be hard to pull off tho.....
cons: Would make the ret weak as they don't have any real way to kill themselves. Would make their role all about blind luck. Then again, you wouldn't be able to STOP the ret anymore.
Note: there is another version where they can only rez the night they die. Still the same pros and cons tho. Only weaker.
Fun: Same as normal ret, except you can change the game after being killed. (unless you do the rez as you die version, in which case the same fun.)
Kill the revived
Lovers mode
The ret and the rezzed become linked if one dies so does the other
Strengths: Same as ret. (aka med still confirmed)
pros: weakens the gain power of the additional towny and vote as evils can take out one of the two and bring things back to normal
cons: practically dooms both players to die shortly.
Fun: more fun, lover modes is a thing.
Blood bound
The ret's target lives as long as their killer does
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: creates a really interesting mechanic (especially if they aren't told who they are) and makes it so progress for the town can reset them back to square 1. Also more in theme with the name
cons: Doesn't fully address the overpowered and can lead to just chain blocking of the killer.
Fun: A little more theme-based fun.
temporary healing:
your target only gets rezzed for x nights
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: weakens the rez ability and adds an interesting dynamic for evils.
cons: doesn't fully address the issue, as even 2 days can be forever in a top game, but 1 day is WAYY too short.
Fun: Less fun overall.
Channeler
Target comes back for the next day only.
Strengths: Confirms med, extra vote for only that day, confirms ret, get dead info.
pros: Voting power is only boon. Other than confirming med+ret.
cons: would need more revives to be worth it.
Fun: Less fun overall.
Nerf the revived.
Shared boredom:
target gets rezzed without abilities
Strengths: confirms med, ret, and brings back dead knowledge. Also voting power.
pros: Only voting power. Removes some of the game-changing abilities.
cons: Now everyone is bored! Also still overpowered.
Fun: As the name implies, boring for all!
Debuffs
Blind and deaf
Ret cannot receive whispers or read chat
strengths: Auto confirms ret unless they made no feedback about them not hearing it. (would make afking a viable strat)
pros: (though there are technically some, they aren't worth listing.)
cons: No... Just no... This would be the worst role to play ever... Oh god no... Autoconfirmed by town, boring to play because you can do NOTHING except rez. Worst idea I have ever read.
Fun: What do you think? You might as well start the game dead! You can't even READ CHAT. Alt-tab + anime
The fool
Ret can revive disguisers!
Strengths: Same as normal ret, except rezed target isn't autoconfirmed.
pros: Buff's disguisers and makes it so a ret can't prove they are disguises.
cons: Would rarely come into play.
Fun: about the same.
which controlled
Let the witch make the ret rez maf
Strengths: Exactly the same as normal ret.
pros: HUGELY nerfs the ability for ret to wait for game-changing roles.
cons: HUGELY buffs witch if they can do it, which would rarely occur. They would be the most powerful NE in the game with this. Not to mention you would have to let them target dead as a target always or risk meta ret detection, and it would make the witch a bit more confusing to play.
Fun: about the same.
Muted rez
The target can only speak to the ret, at night. (jailor can only ask for role and will to jailed targets)
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, possibly regains the dead player's powers depending on the role. Revived player is confirmed. Can still gain the player's knowledge, but not fully off the bat.
pros: nerfs the power of the rezzed target bringing back HUGE info, as they have to wait till the next night to share it.
cons: frustrating for the dead player. Remember a game where the town was being dumb and you wanted to say something? Nuff said. Also, they can still communicate through taunts and voting.
Fun: Specifically less for the rezzed. Very frustrating for them. More fun for the ret. Also more pressure.
Muted rez 2 electric boogaloo
The target cannot do anything other than their night abilities or be protected by bg. They don't count towards the majority. They can still talk, but can't whisper.
Usefulness: Kills the power of gained votes via resurrection. They are arguably less than a normal townie especially due to the doc not being able to heal them, thus leaving important roles like jailor vulnerable.
Pros: Handles major overpowered aspect of ret
Cons: Not a very fun option and makes rezing almost useless for several town role types. (Unless you let a rezed major vote as normal as there perk). Not to mention that rezing an actually important role will just end up in them dying immediately.
Fun: Rather annoying. Not being able to whisper would make the game more frustrating and the players would die quickly due to it being a death sentence.
life sentence
people who are hung are unable to be rezed.
Usefulness: Gives more weight to lynches and incentivizes more false information plays by maf.
pros: Limits the rezing pool of ret and can delay confirmation on bad games.
cons: doesn't really affect much, this doesn't happen to any of the really important roles unless they are just bad at the game. Would disproportionately effect lower elo.
Fun: Makes getting lynched more frustrating.
parole rez
Only people who have been hung can be rezed
Usefulness: Can fix town's mistaken lynches or be used to confirm roles.
Pros: Limits the rezing pool, making it slightly less powerful as odds are the jailor will die to maf or something, making the rets powerless catastrophic. day 3 rezes won't always be possible, so less confirmability for meds and ret.
Cons: Relies on the town fucking up and lynching the wrong person, which means it is going to be primarily used to clean up after bad players.
Fun: There will be many games where the ret just doesn't do much of anything, making it rather boring.
Harder rezing
Expiring souls
Players can only be revived up to X nights after they die.
strengths: In the current meta, not much of a difference, as waiting is only disadvantages. Only slightly weaker.
pros: Makes blocking/stunning the ret more effective.
cons: doesn't fully address the issue.
Fun: about the same.
Timed rez
Takes more than 1 night to rez a target
strengths: Town gains all of the regular Ret benefits.
pros: gives evils a change to take them out and even stop them with a consort (or a which to stop them with or without a escort/consort). Easier fake claiming ret, if there is no announcement.
cons: Little to none I can think of.
Fun: about the same.
Celestial ret
Can only rez on full moon nights
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: limits the revival capabilities, making it easier for evils to stop and giving evils more time if they claim it. Easier evil fake claim.
cons: Doesn't fully address the problem of the power of successful rez. (revive d2 still a thing)
Fun: about the same.
Full night needed:
If they die the night they rez, it fails
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: Makes it easier for evils to combat it
cons: doesn't fully address the problem.
Fun: about the same.
uniqueless
Can't rez uniques (possible paring with witch ummunity)
strengths: same as ret, exept roles won't be as powerful
pros: can't rez jailor for a cinch execution, or vet for a last stand.
cons: Will rarly be that different from rezing a non unique role, and even when it is, the ret would have to wait far too long which is dangerous.
Fun: about the same.
Other
Gatekeeper of the dead
Combine med and ret.
Strengths: More powerful ret, but less powerful town.
Pros: get's rid of mass confirmability from rezing a player.
cons: negatively affects evil claim space. By less than you think.
Suggestions I did not list (not because they are bad, but because there isn't a lot to add about them. Some are just bad tho):
disguiser haunting ret like a jester
ret being neutral (yay, weird amn...)
Not able to rez immune
random rez (boring) (would buff disguisers tho)
buff the ret in any way.... (I did find the self rez interesting tho, and the becoming med)
replace with a NE/K that tries to match killers with victims and kills the killer (RIP vet) AKA necro pirate.
Rezed players who quit are controlled by the ret. (not like they can do anything else at night)
my favorite current is: Light side necromancer + the fool. (stating my bias right now)
Did I miss a pro/con? Please explain what it is and why. Did I miss another possible idea? Explain it and what you think the pros and cons are. There are like 500 threads talking about the ret, I hope this can at least be a good post to focus the debate.
There are a ton of options for a retri re-work and I wanted to go over the options and lay out the pros and cons. I will edit this post to keep it up to date:
Current Retributionist (to set a baseline):
strengths: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Ret and revived player are both confirmed.
Pros: Very interesting addition to the game.
Cons: Waaay too useful to town.
Fun: Not that much really.
Reworks!
Something completely different
Light side necromancer
you know the witch necromancer (from coven)? That exept you can only choose town and THEY decide what they do that night. You get the results. (unless they quit, in which case I would suggest you let the ret decide). Would either require each person only being rezed once due to BG or Limited use of abilities.
Strengths: Allows town to use the abilities of the dead!
pros: no auto confirm for either person (med would be able to confirm ones exists only), lets all the dead play a bit. Also less boring.
cons: would probably be complex to program. Devs might not be happy about not fully using their Rez mechanic.
Fun: Much more fun for the ret as you can do stuff at night!
Light side necromancer (buffed)
you know the witch necromancer (from coven)? That exept you can only choose town and THEY decide what they do that night. (unless they quit, in which case I would suggest you let the ret decide). They also alive the next day and night only. Would either require each person only being rezed once due to BG or Limited use of abilities.
Strengths: Allows town to use the abilities of the dead! Confirms med and ret, gets dead info. Extra voting power.
pros: lets all the dead play a bit. Also less boring. Super powerful roles won't be able to just rejoin the game forever.
cons: Ret is still a bit overpowered.
Fun: Much more fun for the ret as you can do stuff at night? Also, ret is much more involved and tactical.
Your father
remove the ret. Gone. Never going to happen, but still listing it.
Strengths: replaced with another role.
pros: Fixes that specific balancing issue.
cons: never going to happen. Also removes ret.
Fun: N/A
Arso of life
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=87251
(Note, has to cast on someone the night they die)
Strengths: can rez and confirm a ton of people, confirm ret, dead knowledge, confirm med.
pros: makes the role more interesting and punishes lynches. It also makes evil ret claims more viable.
cons: complex and easily identifiable if it exists. It can be frustrating for the dead as you would need to put them in a separate dead chat. Essentially a weaker doc, even if it confirms them.
Fun: Interesting, but not really all that fun. Really it is like a worse doc.
TK of revenge
Match dead people with their killers, and attack the killer if you do it right!
Strengths: Risk-free vig. With unlimited ammo.
pros: Cool and interesting joining of the sheriff and vig. Interesting to play fits with the name
cons: Low-risk tk that would be quite strong. Also, devs would never replace the ret with this.
Fun: Lots of fun as you try and discover the killer.
Charun's transporter
Select two people, if one of them dies you may choose to kill the other person and resurrect the one that died. If the other person dies, you may no longer resurrect the original target. You may trigger this while dead. You may use this ability as often as you want. (If either target is evil you cannot activate it. There is an argument for not adding this as they won't know the role of the second target, but being able to activate it at any point would be game-changing.)
pros: even trade-off with a slight positive if used tactically.
cons: Who has no idea what townie you are killing, so you could end up rezing the jailor for a mayor or worse, killing a secret jailor to rez a sheriff.
Fun: for the ret? A good balance. The role is interesting. For the voluntold second rate late BGs? Not so much.
Life through death
Bodyguard of the dead:
You die, but your target comes back to life! Otherwise works as normal
strengths: Town confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. The revived player is confirmed.
pros: ret is no longer overpowered!
cons: Boring and less satisfying. Everyone would rather get BG than this as at least they can do stuff with self vesting and possibly kill an evil. That or like a boring Amnesiac.
Fun: Even less fun than normal ret, impressive.
revive by death
Ret can only revive a role AFTER dying.
Strengths: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. The revived player is confirmed. The revive can't be prevented at all. No worries about being RBed.
pros: more interesting die to rez a target as they essentially act like a jester. It would be hard to pull off tho.....
cons: Would make the ret weak as they don't have any real way to kill themselves. Would make their role all about blind luck. Then again, you wouldn't be able to STOP the ret anymore.
Note: there is another version where they can only rez the night they die. Still the same pros and cons tho. Only weaker.
Fun: Same as normal ret, except you can change the game after being killed. (unless you do the rez as you die version, in which case the same fun.)
Kill the revived
Lovers mode
The ret and the rezzed become linked if one dies so does the other
Strengths: Same as ret. (aka med still confirmed)
pros: weakens the gain power of the additional towny and vote as evils can take out one of the two and bring things back to normal
cons: practically dooms both players to die shortly.
Fun: more fun, lover modes is a thing.
Blood bound
The ret's target lives as long as their killer does
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: creates a really interesting mechanic (especially if they aren't told who they are) and makes it so progress for the town can reset them back to square 1. Also more in theme with the name
cons: Doesn't fully address the overpowered and can lead to just chain blocking of the killer.
Fun: A little more theme-based fun.
temporary healing:
your target only gets rezzed for x nights
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: weakens the rez ability and adds an interesting dynamic for evils.
cons: doesn't fully address the issue, as even 2 days can be forever in a top game, but 1 day is WAYY too short.
Fun: Less fun overall.
Channeler
Target comes back for the next day only.
Strengths: Confirms med, extra vote for only that day, confirms ret, get dead info.
pros: Voting power is only boon. Other than confirming med+ret.
cons: would need more revives to be worth it.
Fun: Less fun overall.
Nerf the revived.
Shared boredom:
target gets rezzed without abilities
Strengths: confirms med, ret, and brings back dead knowledge. Also voting power.
pros: Only voting power. Removes some of the game-changing abilities.
cons: Now everyone is bored! Also still overpowered.
Fun: As the name implies, boring for all!
Debuffs
Blind and deaf
Ret cannot receive whispers or read chat
strengths: Auto confirms ret unless they made no feedback about them not hearing it. (would make afking a viable strat)
pros: (though there are technically some, they aren't worth listing.)
cons: No... Just no... This would be the worst role to play ever... Oh god no... Autoconfirmed by town, boring to play because you can do NOTHING except rez. Worst idea I have ever read.
Fun: What do you think? You might as well start the game dead! You can't even READ CHAT. Alt-tab + anime
The fool
Ret can revive disguisers!
Strengths: Same as normal ret, except rezed target isn't autoconfirmed.
pros: Buff's disguisers and makes it so a ret can't prove they are disguises.
cons: Would rarely come into play.
Fun: about the same.
which controlled
Let the witch make the ret rez maf
Strengths: Exactly the same as normal ret.
pros: HUGELY nerfs the ability for ret to wait for game-changing roles.
cons: HUGELY buffs witch if they can do it, which would rarely occur. They would be the most powerful NE in the game with this. Not to mention you would have to let them target dead as a target always or risk meta ret detection, and it would make the witch a bit more confusing to play.
Fun: about the same.
Muted rez
The target can only speak to the ret, at night. (jailor can only ask for role and will to jailed targets)
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, possibly regains the dead player's powers depending on the role. Revived player is confirmed. Can still gain the player's knowledge, but not fully off the bat.
pros: nerfs the power of the rezzed target bringing back HUGE info, as they have to wait till the next night to share it.
cons: frustrating for the dead player. Remember a game where the town was being dumb and you wanted to say something? Nuff said. Also, they can still communicate through taunts and voting.
Fun: Specifically less for the rezzed. Very frustrating for them. More fun for the ret. Also more pressure.
Muted rez 2 electric boogaloo
The target cannot do anything other than their night abilities or be protected by bg. They don't count towards the majority. They can still talk, but can't whisper.
Usefulness: Kills the power of gained votes via resurrection. They are arguably less than a normal townie especially due to the doc not being able to heal them, thus leaving important roles like jailor vulnerable.
Pros: Handles major overpowered aspect of ret
Cons: Not a very fun option and makes rezing almost useless for several town role types. (Unless you let a rezed major vote as normal as there perk). Not to mention that rezing an actually important role will just end up in them dying immediately.
Fun: Rather annoying. Not being able to whisper would make the game more frustrating and the players would die quickly due to it being a death sentence.
life sentence
people who are hung are unable to be rezed.
Usefulness: Gives more weight to lynches and incentivizes more false information plays by maf.
pros: Limits the rezing pool of ret and can delay confirmation on bad games.
cons: doesn't really affect much, this doesn't happen to any of the really important roles unless they are just bad at the game. Would disproportionately effect lower elo.
Fun: Makes getting lynched more frustrating.
parole rez
Only people who have been hung can be rezed
Usefulness: Can fix town's mistaken lynches or be used to confirm roles.
Pros: Limits the rezing pool, making it slightly less powerful as odds are the jailor will die to maf or something, making the rets powerless catastrophic. day 3 rezes won't always be possible, so less confirmability for meds and ret.
Cons: Relies on the town fucking up and lynching the wrong person, which means it is going to be primarily used to clean up after bad players.
Fun: There will be many games where the ret just doesn't do much of anything, making it rather boring.
Harder rezing
Expiring souls
Players can only be revived up to X nights after they die.
strengths: In the current meta, not much of a difference, as waiting is only disadvantages. Only slightly weaker.
pros: Makes blocking/stunning the ret more effective.
cons: doesn't fully address the issue.
Fun: about the same.
Timed rez
Takes more than 1 night to rez a target
strengths: Town gains all of the regular Ret benefits.
pros: gives evils a change to take them out and even stop them with a consort (or a which to stop them with or without a escort/consort). Easier fake claiming ret, if there is no announcement.
cons: Little to none I can think of.
Fun: about the same.
Celestial ret
Can only rez on full moon nights
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: limits the revival capabilities, making it easier for evils to stop and giving evils more time if they claim it. Easier evil fake claim.
cons: Doesn't fully address the problem of the power of successful rez. (revive d2 still a thing)
Fun: about the same.
Full night needed:
If they die the night they rez, it fails
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: Makes it easier for evils to combat it
cons: doesn't fully address the problem.
Fun: about the same.
uniqueless
Can't rez uniques (possible paring with witch ummunity)
strengths: same as ret, exept roles won't be as powerful
pros: can't rez jailor for a cinch execution, or vet for a last stand.
cons: Will rarly be that different from rezing a non unique role, and even when it is, the ret would have to wait far too long which is dangerous.
Fun: about the same.
Other
Gatekeeper of the dead
Combine med and ret.
Strengths: More powerful ret, but less powerful town.
Pros: get's rid of mass confirmability from rezing a player.
cons: negatively affects evil claim space. By less than you think.
Suggestions I did not list (not because they are bad, but because there isn't a lot to add about them. Some are just bad tho):
disguiser haunting ret like a jester
ret being neutral (yay, weird amn...)
Not able to rez immune
random rez (boring) (would buff disguisers tho)
buff the ret in any way.... (I did find the self rez interesting tho, and the becoming med)
replace with a NE/K that tries to match killers with victims and kills the killer (RIP vet) AKA necro pirate.
Rezed players who quit are controlled by the ret. (not like they can do anything else at night)
my favorite current is: Light side necromancer + the fool. (stating my bias right now)
Did I miss a pro/con? Please explain what it is and why. Did I miss another possible idea? Explain it and what you think the pros and cons are. There are like 500 threads talking about the ret, I hope this can at least be a good post to focus the debate.