Retri re-work options

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Wed May 08, 2019 7:15 pm

Shout out to Brilliand for his help in getting this up to speed.

There are a ton of options for a retri re-work and I wanted to go over the options and lay out the pros and cons. I will edit this post to keep it up to date:
Current Retributionist (to set a baseline):
strengths: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Ret and revived player are both confirmed.
Pros: Very interesting addition to the game.
Cons: Waaay too useful to town.
Fun: Not that much really.

Reworks!

Something completely different
Light side necromancer
you know the witch necromancer (from coven)? That exept you can only choose town and THEY decide what they do that night. You get the results. (unless they quit, in which case I would suggest you let the ret decide). Would either require each person only being rezed once due to BG or Limited use of abilities.
Strengths: Allows town to use the abilities of the dead!
pros: no auto confirm for either person (med would be able to confirm ones exists only), lets all the dead play a bit. Also less boring.
cons: would probably be complex to program. Devs might not be happy about not fully using their Rez mechanic.
Fun: Much more fun for the ret as you can do stuff at night!

Light side necromancer (buffed)
you know the witch necromancer (from coven)? That exept you can only choose town and THEY decide what they do that night. (unless they quit, in which case I would suggest you let the ret decide). They also alive the next day and night only. Would either require each person only being rezed once due to BG or Limited use of abilities.
Strengths: Allows town to use the abilities of the dead! Confirms med and ret, gets dead info. Extra voting power.
pros: lets all the dead play a bit. Also less boring. Super powerful roles won't be able to just rejoin the game forever.
cons: Ret is still a bit overpowered.
Fun: Much more fun for the ret as you can do stuff at night? Also, ret is much more involved and tactical.

Your father
remove the ret. Gone. Never going to happen, but still listing it.
Strengths: replaced with another role.
pros: Fixes that specific balancing issue.
cons: never going to happen. Also removes ret.
Fun: N/A

Arso of life
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=87251
(Note, has to cast on someone the night they die)
Strengths: can rez and confirm a ton of people, confirm ret, dead knowledge, confirm med.
pros: makes the role more interesting and punishes lynches. It also makes evil ret claims more viable.
cons: complex and easily identifiable if it exists. It can be frustrating for the dead as you would need to put them in a separate dead chat. Essentially a weaker doc, even if it confirms them.
Fun: Interesting, but not really all that fun. Really it is like a worse doc.

TK of revenge
Match dead people with their killers, and attack the killer if you do it right!
Strengths: Risk-free vig. With unlimited ammo.
pros: Cool and interesting joining of the sheriff and vig. Interesting to play fits with the name
cons: Low-risk tk that would be quite strong. Also, devs would never replace the ret with this.
Fun: Lots of fun as you try and discover the killer.

Charun's transporter
Select two people, if one of them dies you may choose to kill the other person and resurrect the one that died. If the other person dies, you may no longer resurrect the original target. You may trigger this while dead. You may use this ability as often as you want. (If either target is evil you cannot activate it. There is an argument for not adding this as they won't know the role of the second target, but being able to activate it at any point would be game-changing.)
pros: even trade-off with a slight positive if used tactically.
cons: Who has no idea what townie you are killing, so you could end up rezing the jailor for a mayor or worse, killing a secret jailor to rez a sheriff.
Fun: for the ret? A good balance. The role is interesting. For the voluntold second rate late BGs? Not so much.


Life through death
Bodyguard of the dead:
You die, but your target comes back to life! Otherwise works as normal
strengths: Town confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. The revived player is confirmed.
pros: ret is no longer overpowered!
cons: Boring and less satisfying. Everyone would rather get BG than this as at least they can do stuff with self vesting and possibly kill an evil. That or like a boring Amnesiac.
Fun: Even less fun than normal ret, impressive.

revive by death
Ret can only revive a role AFTER dying.
Strengths: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. The revived player is confirmed. The revive can't be prevented at all. No worries about being RBed.
pros: more interesting die to rez a target as they essentially act like a jester. It would be hard to pull off tho.....
cons: Would make the ret weak as they don't have any real way to kill themselves. Would make their role all about blind luck. Then again, you wouldn't be able to STOP the ret anymore.
Note: there is another version where they can only rez the night they die. Still the same pros and cons tho. Only weaker.
Fun: Same as normal ret, except you can change the game after being killed. (unless you do the rez as you die version, in which case the same fun.)


Kill the revived
Lovers mode
The ret and the rezzed become linked if one dies so does the other
Strengths: Same as ret. (aka med still confirmed)
pros: weakens the gain power of the additional towny and vote as evils can take out one of the two and bring things back to normal
cons: practically dooms both players to die shortly.
Fun: more fun, lover modes is a thing.

Blood bound
The ret's target lives as long as their killer does
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: creates a really interesting mechanic (especially if they aren't told who they are) and makes it so progress for the town can reset them back to square 1. Also more in theme with the name
cons: Doesn't fully address the overpowered and can lead to just chain blocking of the killer.
Fun: A little more theme-based fun.

temporary healing:
your target only gets rezzed for x nights
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: weakens the rez ability and adds an interesting dynamic for evils.
cons: doesn't fully address the issue, as even 2 days can be forever in a top game, but 1 day is WAYY too short.
Fun: Less fun overall.

Channeler
Target comes back for the next day only.
Strengths: Confirms med, extra vote for only that day, confirms ret, get dead info.
pros: Voting power is only boon. Other than confirming med+ret.
cons: would need more revives to be worth it.
Fun: Less fun overall.


Nerf the revived.
Shared boredom:
target gets rezzed without abilities
Strengths: confirms med, ret, and brings back dead knowledge. Also voting power.
pros: Only voting power. Removes some of the game-changing abilities.
cons: Now everyone is bored! Also still overpowered.
Fun: As the name implies, boring for all!


Debuffs
Blind and deaf
Ret cannot receive whispers or read chat
strengths: Auto confirms ret unless they made no feedback about them not hearing it. (would make afking a viable strat)
pros: (though there are technically some, they aren't worth listing.)
cons: No... Just no... This would be the worst role to play ever... Oh god no... Autoconfirmed by town, boring to play because you can do NOTHING except rez. Worst idea I have ever read.
Fun: What do you think? You might as well start the game dead! You can't even READ CHAT. Alt-tab + anime

The fool
Ret can revive disguisers!
Strengths: Same as normal ret, except rezed target isn't autoconfirmed.
pros: Buff's disguisers and makes it so a ret can't prove they are disguises.
cons: Would rarely come into play.
Fun: about the same.

which controlled
Let the witch make the ret rez maf
Strengths: Exactly the same as normal ret.
pros: HUGELY nerfs the ability for ret to wait for game-changing roles.
cons: HUGELY buffs witch if they can do it, which would rarely occur. They would be the most powerful NE in the game with this. Not to mention you would have to let them target dead as a target always or risk meta ret detection, and it would make the witch a bit more confusing to play.
Fun: about the same.

Muted rez
The target can only speak to the ret, at night. (jailor can only ask for role and will to jailed targets)
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, possibly regains the dead player's powers depending on the role. Revived player is confirmed. Can still gain the player's knowledge, but not fully off the bat.
pros: nerfs the power of the rezzed target bringing back HUGE info, as they have to wait till the next night to share it.
cons: frustrating for the dead player. Remember a game where the town was being dumb and you wanted to say something? Nuff said. Also, they can still communicate through taunts and voting.
Fun: Specifically less for the rezzed. Very frustrating for them. More fun for the ret. Also more pressure.

Muted rez 2 electric boogaloo
The target cannot do anything other than their night abilities or be protected by bg. They don't count towards the majority. They can still talk, but can't whisper.
Usefulness: Kills the power of gained votes via resurrection. They are arguably less than a normal townie especially due to the doc not being able to heal them, thus leaving important roles like jailor vulnerable.
Pros: Handles major overpowered aspect of ret
Cons: Not a very fun option and makes rezing almost useless for several town role types. (Unless you let a rezed major vote as normal as there perk). Not to mention that rezing an actually important role will just end up in them dying immediately.
Fun: Rather annoying. Not being able to whisper would make the game more frustrating and the players would die quickly due to it being a death sentence.

life sentence
people who are hung are unable to be rezed.
Usefulness: Gives more weight to lynches and incentivizes more false information plays by maf.
pros: Limits the rezing pool of ret and can delay confirmation on bad games.
cons: doesn't really affect much, this doesn't happen to any of the really important roles unless they are just bad at the game. Would disproportionately effect lower elo.
Fun: Makes getting lynched more frustrating.

parole rez
Only people who have been hung can be rezed
Usefulness: Can fix town's mistaken lynches or be used to confirm roles.
Pros: Limits the rezing pool, making it slightly less powerful as odds are the jailor will die to maf or something, making the rets powerless catastrophic. day 3 rezes won't always be possible, so less confirmability for meds and ret.
Cons: Relies on the town fucking up and lynching the wrong person, which means it is going to be primarily used to clean up after bad players.
Fun: There will be many games where the ret just doesn't do much of anything, making it rather boring.

Harder rezing
Expiring souls
Players can only be revived up to X nights after they die.
strengths: In the current meta, not much of a difference, as waiting is only disadvantages. Only slightly weaker.
pros: Makes blocking/stunning the ret more effective.
cons: doesn't fully address the issue.
Fun: about the same.

Timed rez
Takes more than 1 night to rez a target
strengths: Town gains all of the regular Ret benefits.
pros: gives evils a change to take them out and even stop them with a consort (or a which to stop them with or without a escort/consort). Easier fake claiming ret, if there is no announcement.
cons: Little to none I can think of.
Fun: about the same.

Celestial ret
Can only rez on full moon nights
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: limits the revival capabilities, making it easier for evils to stop and giving evils more time if they claim it. Easier evil fake claim.
cons: Doesn't fully address the problem of the power of successful rez. (revive d2 still a thing)
Fun: about the same.

Full night needed:
If they die the night they rez, it fails
Strengths: same as ret.
pros: Makes it easier for evils to combat it
cons: doesn't fully address the problem.
Fun: about the same.

uniqueless
Can't rez uniques (possible paring with witch ummunity)
strengths: same as ret, exept roles won't be as powerful
pros: can't rez jailor for a cinch execution, or vet for a last stand.
cons: Will rarly be that different from rezing a non unique role, and even when it is, the ret would have to wait far too long which is dangerous.
Fun: about the same.


Other
Gatekeeper of the dead
Combine med and ret.
Strengths: More powerful ret, but less powerful town.
Pros: get's rid of mass confirmability from rezing a player.
cons: negatively affects evil claim space. By less than you think.

Suggestions I did not list (not because they are bad, but because there isn't a lot to add about them. Some are just bad tho):
disguiser haunting ret like a jester
ret being neutral (yay, weird amn...)
Not able to rez immune
random rez (boring) (would buff disguisers tho)
buff the ret in any way.... (I did find the self rez interesting tho, and the becoming med)
replace with a NE/K that tries to match killers with victims and kills the killer (RIP vet) AKA necro pirate.
Rezed players who quit are controlled by the ret. (not like they can do anything else at night)



my favorite current is: Light side necromancer + the fool. (stating my bias right now)

Did I miss a pro/con? Please explain what it is and why. Did I miss another possible idea? Explain it and what you think the pros and cons are. There are like 500 threads talking about the ret, I hope this can at least be a good post to focus the debate.
Last edited by StrahmDude on Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:52 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Wed May 08, 2019 7:23 pm

"I wanted to go over the options"
*Lists 3 options*

There have been a LOT more than that suggested, and there have even been some megathreads gathering large numbers of ideas together. This one, for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/TownofSalemgam ... egathread/

I don't think there's any point in making yet another Retri megathread. The only way a new thread could manage to be the "one true retri megathread to rule them all" is if a dev starts it.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Wed May 08, 2019 8:40 pm

Brilliand wrote:"I wanted to go over the options"
*Lists 3 options*

There have been a LOT more than that suggested, and there have even been some megathreads gathering large numbers of ideas together. This one, for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/TownofSalemgam ... egathread/

I don't think there's any point in making yet another Retri megathread. The only way a new thread could manage to be the "one true retri megathread to rule them all" is if a dev starts it.

This one is different for 2 reasons
A) it will actually accumulate the suggestions in a much way that is much more organized.
B) It is actually on the dedicated TOS forums in a dedicated TOS suggestion topic area.
I will, however, grab these suggestions, thank you.

Edit: Also, for the record, you REALLY need to read posts before you start bashing them. You will notice I asked for suggestions off the bat as I knew I didn't get them all......
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Thu May 09, 2019 1:59 am

StrahmDude wrote:Edit: Also, for the record, you REALLY need to read posts before you start bashing them. You will notice I asked for suggestions off the bat as I knew I didn't get them all......


No, I saw that, it's just... I don't really believe that it's possible for you to succeed at what you're trying to do. As someone who doesn't often post on this forum, doesn't have any official position, and only started out knowing about a few of the retri rework ideas, you're not exactly well-equipped to lead the community in forming a consensus on this much-discussed topic. What's more, since this isn't the first attempt at a megathread, I think you're falling prey to this mistake: https://xkcd.com/927/

Still... since you've gone to the trouble of listing more retri ideas than I could remember, I'll go ahead and comment on them. (Next post)
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Thu May 09, 2019 2:25 am

Brilliand wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:Edit: Also, for the record, you REALLY need to read posts before you start bashing them. You will notice I asked for suggestions off the bat as I knew I didn't get them all......


No, I saw that, it's just... I don't really believe that it's possible for you to succeed at what you're trying to do. As someone who doesn't often post on this forum, doesn't have any official position, and only started out knowing about a few of the retri rework ideas, you're not exactly well-equipped to lead the community in forming a consensus on this much-discussed topic. What's more, since this isn't the first attempt at a megathread, I think you're falling prey to this mistake: https://xkcd.com/927/

Still... since you've gone to the trouble of listing more retri ideas than I could remember, I'll go ahead and comment on them. (Next post)

I look forward to it when you are done typing it, there is a ton there, so I imagine it will be quite long.
Wither or not this succeeds or if we instead get 40 new topic posts about retri reworks is not up to me, but up to the people who view this thread. I am just trying to gather all of the ideas, not make a decision, nor come up with a universal best idea. While there is one combo I like, there are 5 others I would be happy with. I do appreciate the warning though, and I will keep it in mind. All I hope is that this will reduce the retri spam at least a little. (or at least more than what I have added by making this post)
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Thu May 09, 2019 4:14 am

I've split it up into sections, but I'll start by pointing out the ones I think are worthy of careful consideration:
Light side necromancer
Arso of life
Lovers mode
Blood bound

Honorable mention to "The fool" and "Full night needed" for being generally good ideas, even though they don't solve the current problems with the Ret.

Current Retributionist (to set a baseline):
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Ret and revived player are both confirmed.
Cons: Waaay too useful to town.
Fun: Not that much really.

Rework it into something else entirely:

Light side necromancer
Usefulness: Regains the dead player's powers.
Cons: Uncomfortably similar to the Coven Necromancer. Doesn't allow the dead players to participate much. The "let the dead players make choices" version has timing issues with when the choices get made.
Fun: Could be very fun to play as.
(I consider this one of the good options.)

Your father
Usefulness: Town gets some other role's powers from the very start.
Cons: The game doesn't have a role named "Retributionist" anymore.
Fun: N/A

replace with a NE/K that tries to match killers with victims and kills the killer (RIP vet) AKA necro pirate.
I think this was of my suggestions, but when I suggested it, it was a town role (so it wouldn't want to target the vet).
Usefulness: Sort of a Sheriff/Vigilante hybrid. A safe way to kill evils, if rarely.
Cons: No risk, little effect on the game. Sheriff and Vigilante already exist. Would have to be changed to Town Killing if reworked this way.
Fun: Similar to the Sheriff.

Kill the Retributionist:

Body guard of the dead:
Usefulness: Town confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Revived player is confirmed.
Cons: Uncomfortably similar to Amnesiac. This version is highly dependent on confirming, which isn't great.
Fun: Even less fun than before.

revive after death
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Revived player is confirmed. The revive can't be prevented at all.
Cons: Ret is still overpowered, possibly even moreso.
Fun: Hard to say. Makes the game less challenging.

revive by death at night
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Revived player is confirmed. Evils have counterplay in the form of fakeclaiming Ret and casing suspicion on the real Ret.
Cons: Ret is still swingy, if not necessarily overpowered. It's about as luck-dependent as Bodyguard, but more devastating if it goes off.
Fun: Hard to say. More luck-dependent, but also more tense and possibly exciting.

Arso of life
Usefulness: Town possibly gains multiple votes and lives, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Evils have counterplay in the form of fakeclaiming Ret and casting suspicion on just about anybody.
Cons: Weaker than a Doctor, unless up against an Arsonist specifically.
Fun: The fakeclaiming could get interesting, but I think the ret will wish he was a doctor instead.
(It's a cool idea, but it needs a change to make it more powerful.)

Give the Ret more downsides:

Blind and deaf
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Ret and revived player are both confirmed. No one can fakeclaim Ret ever.
Cons: Town can autoconfirm the ret by noticing who they can't whisper to. Ret gets horrible interface screw.
Fun: None whatsoever.

The fool
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Ret is confirmed, revived player is *almost* confirmed.
Cons: Ret is still overpowered. The "disguiser fools ret" power will only rarely come into play.
Fun: About the same as the current version.

Witch controlled
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Ret and revived player are both confirmed.
Cons: Ret is still overpowered. The "witch beats ret" power will only rarely come into play. Giving the witch buttons to make people target the dead is likely to be confusing for witch.
Fun: About the same as the current version.

Make the revive harder to use:

Timed rez
Usefulness: Town gains all of the regular Ret benefits, but evils gain counterplay in the form of fakeclaiming ret, casting suspicion on the real ret, and more chances to roleblock the ret.
Cons: Ret is still still swingy, if not actually overpowered.
Fun: Hard to say. The ret's power becomes more boring, but other players are likely to start interesting plays focused on the ret.

Celestial ret
Usefulness: Town gains all of the regular Ret benefits, but evils gain counterplay in the form of fakeclaiming ret, casting suspicion on the real ret, and more chances to roleblock the ret.
Cons: Ret is still overpowered. Most games will give a real Ret the chance to revive N2, negating this penalty.
Fun: About the same as the current version.

Full night needed:
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Ret and revived player are both confirmed.
Cons: Ret is still overpowered. A ret being killed the night he revives is pretty rare.
Fun: A little more fun than the current version. (Having a reason to want to survive is fun.)

Kill the revived player:

Lovers mode
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Ret and revived player are both confirmed. Evils have counterplay because it's nearly impossible to keep the ret or the revived player alive afterward.
Cons: Most of the benefits are over a bit too quickly. Still confirms Mediums.
Fun: A little more fun than the current version. (Having a reason to want to survive is fun.)
(I really like this, but I think it needs a tweak to make it end a little later.)

Blood bound
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Ret and revived player are both confirmed. Benefits will naturally come to an end once town starts winning.
Cons: Town could possibly game the system to make it last too long. Still confirms Mediums.
Fun: A little more fun than the current version. Bonus points for theme.
(I really like this, but I think it needs a tweak to make it end a little sooner.)

temporary healing:
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's powers and knowledge. Ret and revived player are both confirmed.
Cons: A fixed amount of time is a bit boring. Still confirms Mediums.
Fun: Not much.

Channeler
Usefulness: Town gains a vote (for one day), confirms mediums, regains the dead player's knowledge. Ret is confirmed.
Cons: Over way too quickly. Still confirms Mediums.
Fun: Not much.

Nerf the revived player:

Muted rez
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, possibly regains the dead player's powers depending on role. Revived player is confirmed.
Cons: Ret is still too powerful. The revived player can still communicate by voting, so this is mostly just interface screw.
Fun: Probably a little more fun for the Ret, but it would suck for the revived player.

Shared bordom:
Usefulness: Town gains a vote, gains a life, confirms mediums, regains the dead player's knowledge. Ret and revived player are both confirmed.
Cons: Ret is still too powerful. The revived player's powers are usually not the important thing anyway.
Fun: Boring for all concerned.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Thu May 09, 2019 11:43 am

I like the idea of the section! I am going to implement that. I also like the additions of Usefulness, though I will replace that with strengths and split it into pros and how good the role is. I look into also adding the fun thing as well!

Thank you!
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby MoustachioMario » Thu May 09, 2019 12:49 pm

Can we have retri sort of work like necromancer?

Have them be able to resurrect a player for one day + night
but then they cant revive the same player twice per game
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Thu May 09, 2019 2:18 pm

MoustachioMario wrote:Can we have retri sort of work like necromancer?

Have them be able to resurrect a player for one day + night
but then they can't revive the same player twice per game

I will add that as a modified version of the light side necromancer. Please in the future try and list the pros, cons, and strengths of the idea. More heads = better results when it comes to this.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Sat May 11, 2019 6:02 pm

Only bump message I will post, primarily due to the extra ret topic.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Kirize12 » Sun May 12, 2019 12:38 am

If you’re into Town Power, replace Ret with Parallax’s ret and make it Town Power.

If you’re not into Town Power, trauma patient is the move for you.

I skimmed through the thing but can’t really find any superior things. I will, however, detest any role idea that removes core mechanics in any way.

Huge props on constructing the list btw. Love the titles too.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Sun May 12, 2019 1:08 am

Kirize12 wrote:If you’re into Town Power, replace Ret with Parallax’s ret and make it Town Power.


Parallax's ret is what Strahmdude called "Arso of life", right? IMO that role's weaker than Doctor, so I don't see the reasoning for Town Power here. (Not that I'm into Town Power anyway)

Kirize12 wrote:If you’re not into Town Power, trauma patient is the move for you.


Trauma Patient is "town-only Amnesiac", right? I consider making the ret an Amnesiac clone quite undesirable, mostly because the Amnesiac already exists (and even sides with town sometimes).

I'll point to the "light side necromancer" idea as an improvement over the "trauma patient" idea; it has some of the same flaws, but it would likely be more fun to play, and it doesn't step on the toes of the role it's copying quite as much because the Necromancer never sides with town.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Sun May 12, 2019 1:53 am

Kirize12 wrote:If you’re into Town Power, replace Ret with Parallax’s ret and make it Town Power.

If you’re not into Town Power, trauma patient is the move for you.

I skimmed through the thing but can’t really find any superior things. I will, however, detest any role idea that removes core mechanics in any way.

Huge props on constructing the list btw. Love the titles too.

Thank you! I tried to really capture the essence of the ideas and their viability.
Also, I couldn't find parallax's ret idea, what was it again? (all the ret ideas blend together at this point, I think it was the arso of life?)
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Kirize12 » Sun May 12, 2019 11:53 am

Brilliand wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:If you’re into Town Power, replace Ret with Parallax’s ret and make it Town Power.


Parallax's ret is what Strahmdude called "Arso of life", right? IMO that role's weaker than Doctor, so I don't see the reasoning for Town Power here. (Not that I'm into Town Power anyway)

Kirize12 wrote:If you’re not into Town Power, trauma patient is the move for you.


Trauma Patient is "town-only Amnesiac", right? I consider making the ret an Amnesiac clone quite undesirable, mostly because the Amnesiac already exists (and even sides with town sometimes).

I'll point to the "light side necromancer" idea as an improvement over the "trauma patient" idea; it has some of the same flaws, but it would likely be more fun to play, and it doesn't step on the toes of the role it's copying quite as much because the Necromancer never sides with town.

Didn’t see that.

The role can be changed to be stronger than a doctor, because currently it doesn’t work as Town Protective due to high confirmability. I wouldn’t mind the players being in dead chat since scum could theoretically be revived here.

Amnesiac does exist, but does not exist in Ranked. Amnesiac is also a swingy role and should probably be reworked into Double. Personally I think Trauma Patient is a bit less swingy than Town Necro.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Sun May 12, 2019 1:20 pm

Kirize12 wrote:Amnesiac is also a swingy role and should probably be reworked into Double.


Hadn't heard of Double before, but now that I've found it...

I think that role comes unfortunately close to simply being "player not appearing in this game." It kills one person; one person is now out of the game; and the rolelist is now exactly as it was before except with the Double gone. The *player* who is gone isn't the same player who was playing Double, but that hardly matters.

Kirize12 wrote:Personally I think Trauma Patient is a bit less swingy than Town Necro.


I'm worried about Trauma Patient being weaker than just having another copy of another role ingame from the start (by the number of nights it takes for someone to die, plus one night to remember). The Town Necro compensates for this by having the flexibility to pick a different role every night, once he gets going. More swingy, probably, but it needs the extra strength to stay competitive with the other town roles.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Fri May 17, 2019 1:33 pm

One of the things I really like about the retri is the ability to allow the dead to re-enter the game. Even if we made it so the dead couldn't talk after being rezed (to avoid med confirmation, not that that would actually stop it). What if the dead could only talk to the living by updating their will, and the ret just got an extra vote?

If they do trauma patient, at least allow it to still "rez" unique roles. Possibly even gain their current wills? That way dead can update their wills and still have it matter.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Fri May 17, 2019 2:45 pm

The only idea we've had that allows the dead to reenter the game *and* doesn't confirm Mediums is the Arso of Life - and only because it puts the to-be-revived players in a sort of limbo, rather than putting them in the dead chat.

Possibly the way to put a stop to the ret confirming Mediums is to change the Medium, rather than changing the Ret. Maybe the Medium can only listen in dead chat, not speak in it?
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby xApprenticex » Sun May 19, 2019 8:20 am

This thread is unnecessary as solutions to this already exist.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Sun May 19, 2019 11:22 am

xApprenticex wrote:This thread is unnecessary as solutions to this already exist.

The entire point of this thread is that solutions already exist. You might want to re-read it.

The purpose of this threat is to bring all of the solutions together in hopes we can get people to stop making a topic about the same retri idea over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby xApprenticex » Mon May 20, 2019 10:20 am

StrahmDude wrote:
xApprenticex wrote:This thread is unnecessary as solutions to this already exist.

The entire point of this thread is that solutions already exist. You might want to re-read it.

The purpose of this threat is to bring all of the solutions together in hopes we can get people to stop making a topic about the same retri idea over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

That is never going to happen because no one reads previous threads.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Mon May 20, 2019 10:40 pm

xApprenticex wrote:
StrahmDude wrote:
xApprenticex wrote:This thread is unnecessary as solutions to this already exist.

The entire point of this thread is that solutions already exist. You might want to re-read it.

The purpose of this threat is to bring all of the solutions together in hopes we can get people to stop making a topic about the same retri idea over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

That is never going to happen because no one reads previous threads.

If the thread it at the top and people bother to read it, people will start to know about it. Giving up gets us nowhere, but making sure people know about it will. Also, since everyone has such fierce opinions on the matter, I was hoping we could actually at least narrow down the list to a few arguably good reworks.
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Rivelle » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:34 am

My retributionist rework idea :D

Each night, select two players. If one of the selected player dies, they can be revived on ANY night, even if you are dead. The other player that was selected must die on the same night you revive the player. If both players were killed, the spell cannot work.

The selected player that died first cannot communicate with the dead, communicate with a medium, and their role will be cleaned.
You can always choose to recast the spell, if you have not attempted to revive someone yet.

If you attempt to revive a dead player, but the alive player that is selected is an evil role, the revive will not work and you can no longer cast spells.

Example 1:
N1: Retributionist selected Jailor and Sheriff. Jailor was killed by mafia.
N2: Retributionist chose to revive Jailor. Jailor was revived, however Sheriff died.

Example 2:
N1: Retributionist selected Mayor and Medium. Medium was killed by mafia
N2: Retributionist died.
N3: Retributionist revived the Medium and the Mayor died.

Example 3:
N1: Retributionist selected Jester and Transporter. Transporter was killed by mafia
N2: Transporter died.
N3: Retributionist attempts to revive Transporter, but the Retributionist couldn't because they selected an evil role.
D4: Everyone either believes the Retributionist and lynches the Jester or they don't believe the Retributionist, because they think he's a janitor.

Example 4:
N1: Retributionist selected themselves and Jailor. Retributionist was killed by mafia
N2: Retributionist kills jailor and revives themselves
D3: everyone reports retributionist B)
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Brilliand » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:32 pm

Rivelle wrote:Each night, select two players. If one of the selected player dies, they can be revived on ANY night, even if you are dead. The other player that was selected must die on the same night you revive the player. If both players were killed, the spell cannot work.

The selected player that died first cannot communicate with the dead, communicate with a medium, and their role will be cleaned.
You can always choose to recast the spell, if you have not attempted to revive someone yet.

If you attempt to revive a dead player, but the alive player that is selected is an evil role, the revive will not work and you can no longer cast spells.


I think this is an over-nerf. You've combined a nerf to the revived player ("hide the dead chat from the revive target") with a nerf to the ret ("sacrifice a townie"), and added in a high chance of failure.

It's still potentially confirmable and can confirm one other person as either town or evil, so that's something at least. If you remove the "only one use" restriction, that might correct the over-nerf, though I worry that it overlaps with other roles too much. (It has characteristics of both Sheriff and Transporter.)
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby Rivelle » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:01 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Rivelle wrote:Each night, select two players. If one of the selected player dies, they can be revived on ANY night, even if you are dead. The other player that was selected must die on the same night you revive the player. If both players were killed, the spell cannot work.

The selected player that died first cannot communicate with the dead, communicate with a medium, and their role will be cleaned.
You can always choose to recast the spell, if you have not attempted to revive someone yet.

If you attempt to revive a dead player, but the alive player that is selected is an evil role, the revive will not work and you can no longer cast spells.


I think this is an over-nerf. You've combined a nerf to the revived player ("hide the dead chat from the revive target") with a nerf to the ret ("sacrifice a townie"), and added in a high chance of failure.

It's still potentially confirmable and can confirm one other person as either town or evil, so that's something at least. If you remove the "only one use" restriction, that might correct the over-nerf, though I worry that it overlaps with other roles too much. (It has characteristics of both Sheriff and Transporter.)


Okay! Thanks, I see
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Re: Retri re-work options

Postby StrahmDude » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:42 pm

Rivelle wrote:My retributionist rework idea :D

Each night, select two players. If one of the selected player dies, they can be revived on ANY night, even if you are dead. The other player that was selected must die on the same night you revive the player. If both players were killed, the spell cannot work.

The selected player that died first cannot communicate with the dead, communicate with a medium, and their role will be cleaned.
You can always choose to recast the spell, if you have not attempted to revive someone yet.

If you attempt to revive a dead player, but the alive player that is selected is an evil role, the revive will not work and you can no longer cast spells.

Example 1:
N1: Retributionist selected Jailor and Sheriff. Jailor was killed by mafia.
N2: Retributionist chose to revive Jailor. Jailor was revived, however Sheriff died.

Example 2:
N1: Retributionist selected Mayor and Medium. Medium was killed by mafia
N2: Retributionist died.
N3: Retributionist revived the Medium and the Mayor died.

Example 3:
N1: Retributionist selected Jester and Transporter. Transporter was killed by mafia
N2: Transporter died.
N3: Retributionist attempts to revive Transporter, but the Retributionist couldn't because they selected an evil role.
D4: Everyone either believes the Retributionist and lynches the Jester or they don't believe the Retributionist, because they think he's a janitor.

Example 4:
N1: Retributionist selected themselves and Jailor. Retributionist was killed by mafia
N2: Retributionist kills jailor and revives themselves
D3: everyone reports retributionist B)

There is a bit of stategy in it as the player that you are sacking can still absorb a hit if they are attacked the night they die. I second the multi-use on this to make it a more balanced. I do worry about how people would react to being sacked to resurrect other roles though.

Edit: idea added, anything you want to add?
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