Spy rework [Role-Tracker]

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Spy rework [Role-Tracker]

Postby Brilliand » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:08 pm

It's pretty commonly acknowledged that the Spy needs some sort of rework. Here's an idea that I've mentioned a few times, but haven't previously made a thread about:

Make the Spy like a Tracker that targets a role slot instead of a player.

For example (ranked game):
- The spy selects the Mafioso. He can then tell who the Mafia attacked if they hit an immune, and thus catch the Neutral Killing.
- The spy selects Random Mafia 1. This just so happens to be a framer, so the Spy sees who the framer chose to frame, thus hard countering the framer.
- The spy spends his first three nights visiting the three Random Town. He now has evidence against anyone who fakeclaims in a Random Town slot.
- The spy spends most of an Arsonist game watching the Neutral Killing slot. He now knows exactly who is doused, and can use process of elimination to find the Arsonist.

This keeps the Spy doing something very similar to what it did before, and keeps it at roughly the same power level overall, but makes it much worse at screwing over the Mafia specifically.

There's really no reason to let the Spy keep his bug ability if this is implemented, since watching a confirmed townie will be enough to let him prove himself.
Last edited by Brilliand on Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spy rework

Postby ZackTheMaf666 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:28 pm

I can see where you’re coming from, but I don’t agree at all. The bug ability is very useful. If a person fake claims rb’d, you will see that they weren’t. Same thing for transport. Plus, In a non-arsonist neutral game, it’s basically all you’ve got. The other ability is unique and creative, but in neutral games, is practically useless. You get to see that the NK is an arsonist whenever after two nights you’ll know that. The NE is a witch while people are claiming controlled everyday. Good in theory, but I don’t think it would be good in game.
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Re: Spy rework

Postby Brilliand » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:43 pm

ZackTheMaf666 wrote:The bug ability is very useful. If a person fake claims rb’d, you will see that they weren’t. Same thing for transport. Plus, In a non-arsonist neutral game, it’s basically all you’ve got.


Okay. The "remove the spy's bug ability" bit was an afterhought; I don't really care either way. The other ability is what I wanted to make a thread about.

I've never seen the Spy's bug ability accomplish much. I would tend to think that simplifying the Spy to have one ability instead of two would be an improvement, provided that one ability is strong enough balance-wise. (It would also save the spy the trouble of keeping those ridiculously long wills).

ZackTheMaf666 wrote:The other ability is unique and creative, but in neutral games, is practically useless. You get to see that the NK is an arsonist whenever after two nights you’ll know that. The NE is a witch while people are claiming controlled everyday. Good in theory, but I don’t think it would be good in game.


I think you're missing a lot of this ability's potential. First, though, I'd like to point out that in neutral games (no mafia), the Spy's "see who the mafia are visiting" ability is COMPLETELY useless. It does nothing at all. Compared to that, my suggestion is obviously a buff.

If you're hunting an arsonist, knowing their actual visits means you can use process of elimination to find them. This has been demonstrated to be VERY powerful in spy vs. Mafia games. Also, note that the Arsonist is part Framer (he makes other players look like Arsonist to the invest), and the spy staying on the Arsonist would ruin the framing aspect of its ability.

If you're hunting a witch, knowing their actual visits means you can catch out the witch if she claims Controlled on herself (making process of elimination possible), and also allows you to call out evils who refrain from claiming Controlled. This makes it harder for the witch to gather allies.

If you only have directly killing evils to hunt, then this version of the spy can still be useful by spying on townies. My version of the spy can confirm exactly which role slot is occupied by which person, which removes a lot of uncertainty for the town.

I think you should think through your criticism a bit more. This ability is far more powerful than you seem to think.
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Re: Spy rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:12 am

Ew, no skill braindead change for the Spy. Thank u, next.
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Re: Spy rework

Postby Brilliand » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:58 am

BasicFourLife wrote:Ew, no skill braindead change for the Spy. Thank u, next.


This changes the spy from having most of its power be automatic with no decision-making, to having to choose who to apply its power to each night.

...so I don't understand the "no skill" accusation.
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Re: Spy rework [Role-Tracker]

Postby Brilliand » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:53 pm

Bump. I think the feedback this rework got before was pretty much crap, so I'm hoping for some more intelligent attention this time around.
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Re: Spy rework [Role-Tracker]

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:31 pm

Brilliand wrote:It's pretty commonly acknowledged that the Spy needs some sort of rework. Here's an idea that I've mentioned a few times, but haven't previously made a thread about:

Make the Spy like a Tracker that targets a role slot instead of a player.

For example (ranked game):
- The spy selects the Mafioso. He can then tell who the Mafia attacked if they hit an immune, and thus catch the Neutral Killing.
- The spy selects Random Mafia 1. This just so happens to be a framer, so the Spy sees who the framer chose to frame, thus hard countering the framer.
- The spy spends his first three nights visiting the three Random Town. He now has evidence against anyone who fakeclaims in a Random Town slot.
- The spy spends most of an Arsonist game watching the Neutral Killing slot. He now knows exactly who is doused, and can use process of elimination to find the Arsonist.

This keeps the Spy doing something very similar to what it did before, and keeps it at roughly the same power level overall, but makes it much worse at screwing over the Mafia specifically.

There's really no reason to let the Spy keep his bug ability if this is implemented, since watching a confirmed townie will be enough to let him prove himself.

Actually I really like roles that uses the mostly untouched rolelist as a mechanic, though I have only seen this and another role in the archive, this is no exception. Though it may be really useful in confirming roles, but that would just make this role a kill priority, which is alright.

What would happen if a player dies? In a ranked role list, if multiple Town Protective roles exist and one dies, which slot would the dead person take? And if this role selects a role which has died, what happens? In addition, would this role visit whoever has the role they select?

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Re: Spy rework [Role-Tracker]

Postby Brilliand » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:25 pm

JacksonVirgo wrote:What would happen if a player dies? In a ranked role list, if multiple Town Protective roles exist and one dies, which slot would the dead person take? And if this role selects a role which has died, what happens? In addition, would this role visit whoever has the role they select?


Players are assigned to role slots at the very beginning of the game. I'm guessing the game does this internally already, without providing a way to detect which slot has which player; this role would provide a way to deduce that kind of trivia.

Dead players do not visit. If the Spy selects a role slot that corresponds to a dead player, he gets the same feedback as if the player he chose is alive but didn't visit. (I suppose there would be an exception for the Jester, since jesters actually visit while dead?)

This version of the Spy does not visit. Any sort of role-targeting ability has to not generate a visit; otherwise it would be too powerful in combination with the Tracker.
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Re: Spy rework [Role-Tracker]

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:41 am

Brilliand wrote:Players are assigned to role slots at the very beginning of the game. I'm guessing the game does this internally already, without providing a way to detect which slot has which player; this role would provide a way to deduce that kind of trivia.

Dead players do not visit. If the Spy selects a role slot that corresponds to a dead player, he gets the same feedback as if the player he chose is alive but didn't visit. (I suppose there would be an exception for the Jester, since jesters actually visit while dead?)

This version of the Spy does not visit. Any sort of role-targeting ability has to not generate a visit; otherwise it would be too powerful in combination with the Tracker.

I assumed it would be pre-assigned role slots but just had to ask in case. I am also glad that dead players don't visit over "This roleslot has died" or something which I was dreading might have been the case. Not visiting would be good as well considering that could be easily abused with Lookout or Tracker like you stated.

This role would allow TK roles to be fake claimed just as well as they are now, it isn't too overpowered all the time like Jailor and Transporter but can be really powerful if used right. I support this change wholeheartedly.

Maybe it is too confirmable? Or at least harder to fake claim? It is fake-claimable for sure but you'd need to read Town just like claiming Lookout/Tracker. However, do you think there might be a meta where you check who the Jailor visits (jails) and if you get it right D2 you're confirmed and/or the jailed target and yourself are mafia.

Maybe if the Godfather has a multi use ability to know who is jailed on a specific night this might counter it, dunno. Or maybe remove a certain Jailor from the rolelist (assuming playing in Ranked) to stop this.

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Re: Spy rework [Role-Tracker]

Postby Brilliand » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:50 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:Maybe it is too confirmable? Or at least harder to fake claim? It is fake-claimable for sure but you'd need to read Town just like claiming Lookout/Tracker. However, do you think there might be a meta where you check who the Jailor visits (jails) and if you get it right D2 you're confirmed and/or the jailed target and yourself are mafia.


There might be? I'm hoping that watching who the RMs visit will be at least a defensible strat, allowing the Mafia to fake it in the same way they fake the current Spy.

Also, jailed players usually claim Jailed right away, and watching the Jailor is a waste of this role's investigative powers, so I don't see that meta working very well (especially since the Mafia will sometimes discover who is jailed by randomly visiting the jailed person).

The question might be moot, though; I checked the wiki, and apparently the Tracker in Coven mode gets no results if they visit the Jailor (apparently Jailors do not visit for Tracker purposes). This role-tracker should work the same way, if only for consistency.
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Re: Spy rework [Role-Tracker]

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:59 am

Brilliand wrote:There might be? I'm hoping that watching who the RMs visit will be at least a defensible strat, allowing the Mafia to fake it in the same way they fake the current Spy.

Also, jailed players usually claim Jailed right away, and watching the Jailor is a waste of this role's investigative powers, so I don't see that meta working very well (especially since the Mafia will sometimes discover who is jailed by randomly visiting the jailed person).


Watching RM would be smart as this role and would make this fake claimable. However, I still feel that checking the Jailor N1 (and whisper the Jailor if they came out) and then the RM's from then on is a viable strategy with this role. If this role says who was jailed before the person claims it, it's either RM that took a 1/11 guess which is ballsy as all hell (could lead to a nice jester play), mafia was jailed or they are legit... actually writing this down actually makes me like this meta less and less, you're right lol.

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Re: Spy rework [Role-Tracker]

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:20 am

How would this work in All Any? This role seems to be very reliant on the role list, which AA doesn't really have.
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Re: Spy rework [Role-Tracker]

Postby Brilliand » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:03 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:How would this work in All Any? This role seems to be very reliant on the role list, which AA doesn't really have.


Yeah, in All Any this works out to be a weaker Tracker, who needs to figure out who it's tracking in addition to everything the Tracker needs to worry about.
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