Town of Salem Game Forums

by **Silver1906** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:23 pm

NOTE: Con Artist is not the most applicable name for that role, but I don't have any better ideas. Please mention a good replacement name if you have one.

Yes yes, I know, we don't need any new factions. I made this for fun, capiche?

Admittedly this probably plays pretty similar to mafia, but since this is my first time making an entire faction, I thought I would start simple.

I don't imagine this being playable with Coven roles, it would probably be part of another little DLC thing like the Coven. I've added some Coven functunality in some roles just in case. I don't play Coven much though, so I probably missed some things I should specify for that mode.

I highly doubt this is going to be balanced, but hey, maybe this will inspire someone or something.

Classic Role List
Spoiler:

Ranked Role List
Spoiler:

Hoodlum Killing

If there is no Hoodlum Killing left, the player that joined the lobby first will be the next Mugger.

Mugger
Spoiler:

Hoodlum Sleuth

Underclass Spoiler:

Snitch Spoiler:

Snoop Spoiler:

Hoodlum Rogue

Con Artist Spoiler:

Lockpicker Spoiler:

Masquerader Spoiler:

by **CloverPlayer04** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:51 pm

Personally, I like this idea. Even though I'm not an expert and my opinion would be invalid, these roles seem easy to understand. I'd love to see this be tested in the future!

by **Silver1906** » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:39 am

Yeah I was going for something simple. I like some of the ideas of the other custom factions, but there's so many hidden layers to them I sometimes struggle to comprehend every part of it.

This is basically just an alternate mafia, which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing.

Hopefully everyone else will like it too.

by **Bodhrak** » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:58 am

The idea is ok and I like the fact that it's simple, but it seems underpowered to me.

Comparing this with Mafia
* No role has basic defense - very vulnerable to killers and has a hard time claiming TK
* No role is innocent to the Sheriff
* Only one Killer means you can be shut down by your killer being roleblocked or jailed easily
* Generally lacks good fakeclaims

To the roles:
Mugger: Mix between Mafioso and Janitor, but leaning on the weaker side. Stealing wills is barely useful when players claim before it.
Underclass: Essentially a slightly weaker consig, but still strong enough.
Snitch: Sounds like a nice idea, but is often situational. Basically comes down to being a BM that can communicate with a witch silently. And that can not blackmail.
Plageriser: First, this should be spelt Plagiarizer, it has nothing to do to with the plague. Next this seems like it should be in the same alignment as Underclass, because it does kind of the same thing, albeit weaker. Also it can be easily outplayed by emptying your will each night (can be done without problems by NK, Vet, Vig and TP roles). And it even warns your target? Why that when it's weaker than Underclass already?
Dealer: Another weak and very situational ability. Worthless alone, only in conjuction with Witch, Plagiarizer or a TP this actually has an effect.
Lockpicker: Situational ability. Like the framer it only affects some TIs and you can still be seen for it, so you might get lynched instead of the Killer. The protection effect is a neat idea, but what exactly is the point when the Lockpicker dies, when he is just as much a "backup mugger"? You might as well not visit the kill target (in case of WW, Vet, Medusa, Crus).
Masquerader: Definitely the strongest ability here. Acts as a mix between a Framer, a Mashall and a disguiser. But hard to play. You can pull off TPs onto yourself, but your target is still be protected, which is probably counter-intuitive. You can lead players into an alerting Vet, but you need to time it perfectly. Same with Vigilante shooting.

by **Silver1906** » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:33 am

Hey, thanks for the feedback!

So here's my reasoning for the first few points. Hoodlums are not organised crime, meaning they are less organised than Mafia. This is why they have no leading role with basic defense. This is also why all of them can be found by sheriff.
I actually completely forgot how easy it would be for roleblockers and jailors to find a killing role. I'll try and fix that by changing Mugger.
Once again, lack of good fake claims is with how unorganised Hoodlums are.

Now onto the intended strengths that I'll clearly need to buff.

Hoodlums are supposed to be very unpredictable. Aside from the Plagiariser, which I'll probably change, none of the roles alert anyone to their presence. Their unpredictability is also furthered with the fact they have three Random Hoodlums in ranked. I think this effectively nerfs Investigator a little and buffs Sheriff a bit which is nice.
All of their roles are intended to either be more powerful than any Mafia counterparts they have, or to have more than one role to do something, letting them cover more ground like their investigation roles.

So from what you've said, I'm thinking I'll just buff all the roles and scrap some of the more worthless ones.

Mugger: I quite like this role, so I think I'll keep it. With how weak the faction seems to be and their lack of a leader role, I figured it might be a good idea to make the Mugger much stronger. Now the Mugger will also clean the role like a Janitor. They will kill roleblockers like a Serial Killer, cleaning them if they have a Mugging remaining. This should fix the Hoodlums problem of being found out by being blocked if they play well, and makes Mugger much more impactful. This also gives Muggers some great information to work with if they kill a Jailor and grab their will. This weakens retri, since cleaned Jailors cannot be revived. It'll also be a nice buff to med to make it more useful.
Overall, this should make Mugger much more terrifying and the focal point of the Hoodlums.

Underclass: I haven't got much to say here either. I think it's good as it is. It's weaker than consig, but the Hoodlums have multiple investigation roles, unlike Mafia.

Snitch: You're right, probably is situational, but I think I'll leave it as it is for now since I don't have any ideas to improve it at the moment.

Plagiariser: I think you read it wrong, it is in the same alignment as Underclass. I like the idea behind this, but maybe I should swap it out for something else. I'll give it some thought and see what I can come up with.

Dealer: Another one I should probably remove. The idea behind this was to help make up for the Hoodlums lack of good claims. It would make it easier for roles such as Masquerader to claim Escort or Transporter, but I suppose it didn't really work out. I'll see what I can think of.

Lockpicker: I'm a big fan of this one personally, so I won't be removing it. I'll remove some of its downsides and see if that makes it more useful. The Lockpicker will no longer be seen when visiting either, so no one will get caught when visiting. This opens up the chance to, for example, attack someone protected by a doctor and possibly make someone else look like a killer. The Lockpicker also won't die to danger, making it much safer to attack anyone.

Masquerader: I don't think I need to change anything here. Probably the model for how strong each role in this faction should aim to be.

by **Silver1906** » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:54 am

I've been mulling over how to improve this faction and I've made some changes to make them stronger.

Here's a list of all the changes made since this faction was first posted:

Mugger now also cleans when Mugging. Mugger will attack roleblockers, using a Mugging if they have any left.

Underclass is unchanged for now, although it might get a small buff if I can think of one.

Snitch can now copy others investigation results. A very small buff, but I can't think of anything better at the moment.

Plagiariser has now been replaced with a new role, Snoop. This is another investigation role very similar to Underclass, but has its own niche. While it might seem more powerful than the Underclass, it's less reliable. If you do not also have a Underclass, you will have to rely on town to openly claim, or for most people to die. When this role is combined with a Underclass, the Hoodlums have outstanding potential for fast information gathering.

Dealer has been replaced with a new role, Con Artist. This role tries to fill the part of the Dealer better. This role is great for causing mass confusion, and is very important for allowing Hoodlums to claim more freely. Unlike Janitor the Con Artist does not know the role of it's victims, making skill needed to use its advantages well.

Lockpicker had some minor buffs to its abilities, removing some of the problems it had. It no longer is seen by Lookouts and Spies, meaning the entire team can move undetected. It will also no longer die to danger, meaning it no longer sacrifices itself for the team.

Masquerader is completely unchanged, as I believe this is the ideal role for this faction.

If you have any thoughts, please drop them down. I'm kinda at a loss of where else to go with this.

by **Silver1906** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:53 am

Bumparoo. Comments on this are highly desired.

All of my role ideas · by **Brilliand** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:45 pm

I don't like the idea of a new faction that's pretty much just another Mafia. (Though, a "red oni/blue oni" game with two opposing Mafias sounds fun.)

However, the Plagiarizer sounds like it may have been a fixed Forger. This is within my interests, but I can no longer find a proper description of what the Plagiarizer was.

by **Silver1906** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:30 pm

Marmalaid274 wrote:not going to read until you fix the name

There's a lot of names here, so I don't know which one you're referring to. At a guess I would assume you are talking about Con Artist. I personally admitted it wasn't very fitting and asked for help, which you're clearly not giving.

Brilliand wrote:I don't like the idea of a new faction that's pretty much just another Mafia. (Though, a "red oni/blue oni" game with two opposing Mafias sounds fun.)

However, the Plagiarizer sounds like it may have been a fixed Forger. This is within my interests, but I can no longer find a proper description of what the Plagiarizer was.

Yeah, I'm not a massive fan of it being basically a mafia rip-off either, but I think it's different enough with unique roles not seen in mafia, a lot of them were ideas I couldn't put into a regular mafia because they would either conflict or overpower the faction, which is why I created this faction that has those roles needs in mind.
The only roles that are similar to mafia roles are Underclass and Snitch, and the faction has no leader role which I think is pretty cool.

Plagiariser really wasn't all that exciting. You chose a target at night to copy their will, and you could then read all of your collected wills to copy them or find visiting patterns or whatever you wanted. Pretty underpowered and a meta could probably be developed to nullify it.

All of my role ideas · by **Brilliand** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:58 pm

Silver1906 wrote:Plagiariser really wasn't all that exciting. You chose a target at night to copy their will, and you could then read all of your collected wills to copy them or find visiting patterns or whatever you wanted. Pretty underpowered and a meta could probably be developed to nullify it.

So just a will-reader? In a regular Mafia game, it wouldn't be possible to develop a meta to nullify it, because having your will available when you die is too important... so the Plagiarizer would be just as good as a Consigliere (on average). However, in a Hoodlums game where every kill is an automatic clean anyway... yeah, "keep your wills outside the game" could indeed become the standard.

This does produce the idea of fixing the Forger by giving him the choice to act either as a Forger or as a will-reader on any given night.

by **Silver1906** » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:42 am

Brilliand wrote: So just a will-reader? In a regular Mafia game, it wouldn't be possible to develop a meta to nullify it, because having your will available when you die is too important... so the Plagiarizer would be just as good as a Consigliere (on average). However, in a Hoodlums game where every kill is an automatic clean anyway... yeah, "keep your wills outside the game" could indeed become the standard.

This does produce the idea of fixing the Forger by giving him the choice to act either as a Forger or as a will-reader on any given night.

I don't think every kill would be a clean, the Mugger only gets two cleans throughout the whole game, and that's even for roles that upgrade to Mugger. I see your point though. I guess I could have made the Plagiariser good if I had wanted to fiddle around with some buffs, but I figured it would probably be best to replace it for now until I get a more stable ability for it. As it was there, you'd get loads of information from a Jailor and probably very little from a Mayor or Vigilante.

I don't really hang out on the forums much, but I'm pretty sure there's been plenty of people suggesting the Forger can be fixed by reading wills and they've all been rejected.
I quite like the idea personally, but no one else seems to.

All of my role ideas · by **Brilliand** » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:15 pm

Silver1906 wrote:I don't really hang out on the forums much, but I'm pretty sure there's been plenty of people suggesting the Forger can be fixed by reading wills and they've all been rejected.
I quite like the idea personally, but no one else seems to.

Rejected? I've seen very little attention, but not rejection. The devs don't seem to pay much attention to this subforum, tbh.

(I'm starting to think posting roles in this subforum is just as much a waste of time as posting roles on Reddit. Even more, actually, because posts on Reddit at least get more replies.)

by **Silver1906** » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:33 pm

Brilliand wrote:Rejected? I've seen very little attention, but not rejection. The devs don't seem to pay much attention to this subforum, tbh.

(I'm starting to think posting roles in this subforum is just as much a waste of time as posting roles on Reddit. Even more, actually, because posts on Reddit at least get more replies.)

By rejection, I was meaning by other forum members. You know, the standard "This has been suggested many times and is pointless. /nosupport."
It pretty much is a waste of time if you're hoping your idea will be added into the official game. I'm just doing this for fun because I'm bored, and for the off chance people decide to add it to TG where people can have fun with it.

Marmalaid274 wrote:i'm not going to help you, son. this is your own project to complete.

Then by all means, don't help me. This forum is usually considered a collaborative place, but you could have just completely ignored this post if you had nothing constructive to say.

All of my role ideas · by **Brilliand** » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:39 pm

Silver1906 wrote:By rejection, I was meaning by other forum members. You know, the standard "This has been suggested many times and is pointless. /nosupport."

I searched past threads, and I found someone reacting this way to that idea, but he didn't seem to be in the majority.

IMO the "forger can read wills" idea hasn't been done right yet, but it's the right way to go with buffing the Forger. Just needs tuning (in the form of deciding how frequently he can do it, and how it needs to be times relative to when the person dies).

By analogy to Plagiarizer, I'm now thinking of an "even nights he reads a will, odd nights he replaces a will" arrangement. Perhaps with Vampire-like timing (able to skip a night to switch the order), rather than Werewolf-like timing (always fixed to even/odd nights respectively).

by **Silver1906** » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:08 am

Brilliand wrote:I searched past threads, and I found someone reacting this way to that idea, but he didn't seem to be in the majority.

IMO the "forger can read wills" idea hasn't been done right yet, but it's the right way to go with buffing the Forger. Just needs tuning (in the form of deciding how frequently he can do it, and how it needs to be times relative to when the person dies).

By analogy to Plagiarizer, I'm now thinking of an "even nights he reads a will, odd nights he replaces a will" arrangement. Perhaps with Vampire-like timing (able to skip a night to switch the order), rather than Werewolf-like timing (always fixed to even/odd nights respectively).

Personally I quite like the idea. You should go ahead and post a Forger buff and see what you can do with it.

Out of the two timings you mentioned, Vampire seems like the best one since players would never be sure if this is a forged or normal will, whereas it can be pretty obvious with Werewolf timing.

by **Silver1906** » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:33 am

Yet another bump. Might not bump again if I get no replies this time since I assume no one has any extra thoughts.

by **Jackparrot** » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:19 pm

Maybe re-name con artist to impersonator?

by **Silver1906** » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:23 am

Jackparrot wrote:Maybe re-name con artist to impersonator?

Nice suggestion, I appreciate it! However, I still don't think that fits either. Calling it Impersonator would make me think that this role is disguising itself, not others. That's how I would view it at least.

Let me know if you have another idea, I would really like to change it.

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