Disguiser Overhaul (MS, Ret hard-counter)

[oOYuuArtSuiOo]

Role Name: Disguiser (Much better name can be given)

Role Alignment: Mafia Support
Appearance: 7%

Abilities: Revive a dead Mafia member.

Additional Information:
> BEFORE ANYONE RAGES BECUASE OF THE ABILITY, PLEASE READ FIRST.

Attributes:
> You cannot revive unless a Mafia member has died for more than 1 night.
> Can only revive once.
> Choose a person where the revived Mafia member will act as.
> The list to choose will be like the Witch. Left buttons are for who to revive and the right buttons are for the player the Mafia member will be disguised as.

Scenario:
Connor the Mafioso dies night 1.
Jourle the Sheriff gets lynched day 2.
N2 and D3 passes,
N3 comes, Disguiser can choose to revive the Mafia member Connor, disguising as Jourle the Sheriff. Now, the Mafioso has the name and role of Jourle, but is still the mafioso.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Clarifications:
What happens if there were a Ret?
~~~
This is the beauty of this overhaul. Ret is so overpowered that it can confirm itself so easily through confirming ANOTHER town member who has died. Not only it can confirm itself easily, but also can confirm fake medium claims or actual medium claims.

But with this overhaul, Ret will now have a difficult time trying to confirm themself as the actual Ret since there is a counter to it.

~~~What happens if both roles chooses to revive the same player? (The Disguiser chooses the name to disguise the Mafioso as)

Nothing happens. This gives Consort or Escort, Witch or Pirate or any other roleblock-capable roles a much decisive role as a whole. (To roleblock one so that the other can revive)

~~~Wouldn't this role be a hard-counter to Ret?

True, this becomes a hard-counter to Ret, but almost all Mafia roles are hard-counters. Framer hard-counters most TIs, Consig hard-counters Invest, Consort hard-counters Escorts, such and such.

And atleast there is now a way to make Ret a more difficult role to handle.

For any other questions, please ask it on the questions comments box.

~~~This role also buffs Medium. Since Disguiser only takes the name and role of who they chose to disguise their maf member as, the true player who was "revived" can confirm the existence of a maf reviver.

~~~And another scenario would be if there is an actual medium or there are more people dead, and suddenly the dead maf member stops speaking... wouldn't that be a giveaway?

Yes, it would. This prevents dead Maf members from misleading dead townies too much, but doesn't completely force them not to speak at all. They still can, but should be cautious if they know that they may get revived.

And, anyways that wouldn't be a problem, since the name taken to disguise the maf as isn't actually revived, only the name and role was taken, which got replaced by the maf player, but the actual player of that name and role is still dead, that actual player can confirm to a Medium that the revived player and the reviver is mafia. This gives Medium a more strategic gameplay and gives mafia a more expandable resource at hand.

[Kombinator1991]

So you actually revive a "town member", but that town member will get the dead mafia member's role, and will be controlled by the dead mafia member who seemingly still dead.

Quite interesting idea i must admit. When someone get revived town can't be sure, if it's a mafia member, or a townie. Unless, if a medium in game. Medium with seance, or alive can tell on next night, that mafia member got revived, and not a town member.

Small extension: If GF revived, and mafioso turned GF is in game, then mafioso turns back into mafioso.

[oOYuuArtSuiOo]

So you actually revive a "town member", but that town member will get the dead mafia member's role, and will be controlled by the dead mafia member who seemingly still dead.

Quite interesting idea i must admit. When someone get revived town can't be sure, if it's a mafia member, or a townie. Unless, if a medium in game. Medium with seance, or alive can tell on next night, that mafia member got revived, and not a town member.

Small extension: If GF revived, and mafioso turned GF is in game, then mafioso turns back into mafioso.

You don't revive the PLAYER of the TOWN MEMBER you chose, but rather the MAFIA PLAYER who takes name of the "role and name", though they don't perform as the role they were revived as.

And thanks for the suggestion.

[MoustachioMario]

I like this idea for disguiser, but it is sort of like the old disg

They revived mafia could spam the chat, and get reported but the reports would be for the sheriff instead of the dead mafia

[carriemoose37]

This seems like a cool idea, but I have a question:

Won't townies just lynch the retri/disguiser right after they revive somebody? Because if you do that, you can easily confirm either two townies or find two mafia. Thanks

[MoustachioMario]

This seems like a cool idea, but I have a question:

Won't townies just lynch the retri/disguiser right after they revive somebody? Because if you do that, you can easily confirm either two townies or find two mafia. Thanks :D

Maybe let disg be revealed as retributionist after they die.

This is another idea for disg but might not be good: the disg has the thing that hypno has, but the disg actually disgs as that role and does the ability.
Now that I think of it, it sounds really bad :( but what do you guys think?

[oOYuuArtSuiOo]

This seems like a cool idea, but I have a question:

Won't townies just lynch the retri/disguiser right after they revive somebody? Because if you do that, you can easily confirm either two townies or find two mafia. Thanks

It would be better than getting Ret revive without anyone to actually counterclaim them. This role permits the mafia to get a higher chance to win end-game than get destroyed by a revived Jailor and Ret. And with this role, Ret won't easily be able to revive Jailor without roleblockers as Disguiser themself can prevent them by choosing Jailor as the disguised mafia.

And this role also buffs Medium but not to an extent that Medium becomes a hard-hard-counter to Disguiser.

And Disguiser right now is too easily discoverable and also uselss.

So I thought this role would somewhat bring back the old disguiser but to another level

I like this idea for disguiser, but it is sort of like the old disg

They revived mafia could spam the chat, and get reported but the reports would be for the sheriff instead of the dead mafia

Yeah, it's like the old disg.

They wouldn't do that, as the revived mafia will need to act as the confirmed townie (who the town believes is revived and confirmed) and thus can't easily spam unless the maf is giving information that either is useless or useful.

Maybe let disg be revealed as retributionist after they die.

This is another idea for disg but might not be good: the disg has the thing that hypno has, but the disg actually disgs as that role and does the ability.
Now that I think of it, it sounds really bad but what do you guys think?

Though it does kind of retain their ability to disguise, it gives town too much difficulty, the fact that this role can probably successfully fool the town and lynch the confirmed ret and that the revived target like jailor gives mafia too much advantages, but since the real ret can challenge the maf ret, it basically gives town so much chaos and confusion that maf can devise a plan to win.

[OreCreeper]

But this would cause paradoxes, wouldn't it? For example:

A the Jailor dies. The next day, an LO sees B the Mafioso visiting. B is lynched.

The next night, C the Disg and D the Ret both "rezz" A. Now, there are two As.

[oOYuuArtSuiOo]

But this would cause paradoxes, wouldn't it? For example:

A the Jailor dies. The next day, an LO sees B the Mafioso visiting. B is lynched.

The next night, C the Disg and D the Ret both "rezz" A. Now, there are two As.

No, as mentioned in the OP, when both revive-capable roles choose to revive the same person (for the Disg's case the "the player maf will disguise as"), nothing will happen.

[rushofpower]

im not sure about this. i dont think 2 wrongs will make a right. Giving mafia a ret-level type RM as a way to balance town getting ret isnt the right way to approach the ret issue in ranked. I'd rather they just remove the role completely from Ranked. Like how you cant get VH as TK in ranked, remove ret for TS.

[Mystoc]

your not the first person to suggest this, its a good idea theory but doesnt do what you think it will

this role ret still cant be claimed its too all in, if you claim ret has evil mafia ret and either of you dies and then its exposed the person is mafia the other is instantly outed has mafia as well since if one is evil then the must be evil if they were rezed or were revived


also in a situation of two people claiming ret one must be evil since ret is unique, so in games where theirs a ret and disguiser, the enter a showdown of one us is lying much like what happens with vets claims, the difference if both you rezed all ready ur job is done town has no reason to not hang an ret claim

town ret already rezed who cares if they die
evil ret already rezed too but if they die the person they rezed is outed as evil

example of what will happen below

town hangs first ret claim is legit ret
town or jailor kills second ret claim and then the person evil ret rezed

evil ret looses way more then good ret, town can afford sacrifice their ret who already rezed to confirm who is and evil and who is not, this does not HC ret at all you claimed in the tittle


so in short ret is still unclaimable since its unique you risk their being a legit ret in the game or if one dies the other dies by association since if one is evil the other must be too, since evil ret can only rez evil mafia

even in games where theirs no good ret counter claim you, town will be very susp of a person who is rezed and a ret isnt claiming they did the rez, its basically shouting "I KNOW I CANT CLAIM RET SO I WONT AND INCASE MY TEAMMATE DIES I REZED IM NOT OUTED AS EVIL TOO SO ILL STAY QUIET" town will hang people now who dont have ret backing that they rezed the person, it will be the new meta if an evil ret is added into the game it wont work

lastly this messes with reporting its a good concept on paper but doesnt solve rets confirmablity at all
and meta games can be used like asking a rezed person to paste their will right away to see how fast they do it
(if the have to copy and paste and dead person will thats not their it will take longer)

[Kombinator1991]

Mystic got a point. If disguiser died, then any ressed "town member" are also outed. Unless they both revived someone, but even then town knows, that 2 townie are one evil, and other is not. A combination of the current, and this system could work. The disguiser retains the ability to visit living townies, and disguise his own death. Unless gets killed by vet., or jailor.

[Kikigiri]

Here's my suggestion to avoid the reports issue:

Instead of using someone else's name, make it so both the Disguiser and the Retributionist revive people using new, randomly-assigned default names (ones not currently used in the game; this might require adding two new possible default names), in a random position and with a random default skin + no pet. That way, you can have an evil retri like this without having to use an existing person's name in a way that could get them in trouble.

That is to say, whether you're a retri or a disguiser, you bring back people in an anonymized fashion using a random new name like "Giles Corey" - one not currently in the game. They can't auto-prove who they are.

[RobinFox]

I have a lot of nitpicks with this idea. 1. This revival wouldn't work at all if you were reviving a janitor. 2. It can be easily deconfirmed by a medium. 3. If a mayor or a jailor is dead (roles impossible to fake), the retributionist claim would be immediately suspicious because no real retributionist would choose to revive a different role. 4. If the retributionist dies, 2 mafias get killed without a doubt (the retributionist claim and the guy revived). I feel like making a mafia role that mimics an unique role just wouldn't work out.

[coolegcole]

I think this could be a little overpowered unless the town was TI. Nobody ever asks a dead person for a role, the only thing about if its a TI they expect them to post results. Plus, this would SUCK in a medium game where the dead person can call him out.

[Kikigiri]

I have a lot of nitpicks with this idea. 1. This revival wouldn't work at all if you were reviving a janitor.

That can (and should) be changed. Ret needs the nerf and Disguiser needs the buff.

2. It can be easily deconfirmed by a medium.

There's nothing wrong with that. Mediums should serve a purpose.

3. If a mayor or a jailor is dead (roles impossible to fake), the retributionist claim would be immediately suspicious because no real retributionist would choose to revive a different role.

You can fake Jailor for a night or so by claiming to have jailed fellow evils. Often that's all you need.

And it would still be better than the current situation.

4. If the retributionist dies, 2 mafias get killed without a doubt (the retributionist claim and the guy revived). I feel like making a mafia role that mimics an unique role just wouldn't work out.

Sure. That's a reasonable drawback to an immensely powerful ability.

(It could also be partially fixed by making Disguisers show as Retributionists when they die, if they've used their revive ability.)

[Brilliand]

4. If the retributionist dies, 2 mafias get killed without a doubt (the retributionist claim and the guy revived). I feel like making a mafia role that mimics an unique role just wouldn't work out.

Sure. That's a reasonable drawback to an immensely powerful ability.

(It could also be partially fixed by making Disguisers show as Retributionists when they die, if they've used their revive ability.)

Then we have a very swingy situation where a Disg without a Ret is an auto-win for Maf, a Ret without a Disg is an auto-win for Town, and a Ret combined with a Disg is balanced. Doesn't sound very good to me.

(This is pretty much the same objection as rushofpower raised, I think.)

[JacksonVirgo]

I personally don't think the Disguiser role needs to be changed and DEFINITELY not have them be able to revive someone and here are my reasons.

Town of Salem is, at it's core, a social deception game and some roles habor some sweet rewards for a little risk. Having this role is incredibly useful for getting rid of larger threats such as the Jailor early on rather than just killing them off at night, hoping there isn't a BG on them. Sure, this role isn't very good end game and that is exactly why you should risk it at the start of the game. If you play this role correctly and know how it works, it is incredibly helpful for the mafia.

Now onto the whole reviving part. Mafia should NEVER be able to revive anybody. Mafia at it's core is a group of organised criminals not witches (like the Coven and Retributionist). They should only ever be able to do things that a normal person would be able to do if that makes any sense. If you want to nerf the Retributionist, do that by altering the retri's attributes instead of relying on this chance mafia role (which won't even help one bit in an all Coven game).

[Nano4]

Role Name: Disguiser (Much better name can be given)

Role Alignment: Mafia Support
Appearance: 7%

Abilities: Revive a dead Mafia member.

Additional Information:
> BEFORE ANYONE RAGES BECUASE OF THE ABILITY, PLEASE READ FIRST.

Attributes:
> You cannot revive unless a Mafia member has died for more than 1 night.
> Can only revive once.
> Choose a person where the revived Mafia member will act as.
> The list to choose will be like the Witch. Left buttons are for who to revive and the right buttons are for the player the Mafia member will be disguised as.

Scenario:
Connor the Mafioso dies night 1.
Jourle the Sheriff gets lynched day 2.
N2 and D3 passes,
N3 comes, Disguiser can choose to revive the Mafia member Connor, disguising as Jourle the Sheriff. Now, the Mafioso has the name and role of Jourle, but is still the mafioso.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Clarifications:
What happens if there were a Ret?
~~~
This is the beauty of this overhaul. Ret is so overpowered that it can confirm itself so easily through confirming ANOTHER town member who has died. Not only it can confirm itself easily, but also can confirm fake medium claims or actual medium claims.

But with this overhaul, Ret will now have a difficult time trying to confirm themself as the actual Ret since there is a counter to it.

~~~What happens if both roles chooses to revive the same player? (The Disguiser chooses the name to disguise the Mafioso as)

Nothing happens. This gives Consort or Escort, Witch or Pirate or any other roleblock-capable roles a much decisive role as a whole. (To roleblock one so that the other can revive)

~~~Wouldn't this role be a hard-counter to Ret?

True, this becomes a hard-counter to Ret, but almost all Mafia roles are hard-counters. Framer hard-counters most TIs, Consig hard-counters Invest, Consort hard-counters Escorts, such and such.

And atleast there is now a way to make Ret a more difficult role to handle.

For any other questions, please ask it on the questions comments box.

~~~This role also buffs Medium. Since Disguiser only takes the name and role of who they chose to disguise their maf member as, the true player who was "revived" can confirm the existence of a maf reviver.

~~~And another scenario would be if there is an actual medium or there are more people dead, and suddenly the dead maf member stops speaking... wouldn't that be a giveaway?

Yes, it would. This prevents dead Maf members from misleading dead townies too much, but doesn't completely force them not to speak at all. They still can, but should be cautious if they know that they may get revived.

And, anyways that wouldn't be a problem, since the name taken to disguise the maf as isn't actually revived, only the name and role was taken, which got replaced by the maf player, but the actual player of that name and role is still dead, that actual player can confirm to a Medium that the revived player and the reviver is mafia. This gives Medium a more strategic gameplay and gives mafia a more expandable resource at hand.

game insights is currently getting ready to forward a disguiser buff to the devs, in a day or 2 it will be added to a document which will be sent to the devs

[Brilliand]

game insights is currently getting ready to forward a disguiser buff to the devs, in a day or 2 it will be added to a document which will be sent to the devs

What is "game insights", and why would they have special access to send stuff to the devs?

[oOYuuArtSuiOo]

Now onto the whole reviving part. Mafia should NEVER be able to revive anybody. Mafia at it's core is a group of organised criminals not witches (like the Coven and Retributionist). They should only ever be able to do things that a normal person would be able to do if that makes any sense. If you want to nerf the Retributionist, do that by altering the retri's attributes instead of relying on this chance mafia role (which won't even help one bit in an all Coven game).

Well, the mafia doesn't necessarily mean that they shouldn't have any magical abilities, right?
Mafia is a group of organised criminals, yes, but criminals aren't limited to people who doesn't use magic.

Altering Disg which buffs mediums and buffs maf as a whole and nerfs/buffs rets
are a much better option than just altering ret itself.

Then we have a very swingy situation where a Disg without a Ret is an auto-win for Maf, a Ret without a Disg is an auto-win for Town, and a Ret combined with a Disg is balanced. Doesn't sound very good to me.

(This is pretty much the same objection as rushofpower raised, I think.)

Not so, if this role was implemented, town will always be suspicious of ret claims, unless who the "ret" revives does perform their action to a confirmed townie.
A disg without a ret, doesn't necessarily give a win for maf, since again, town will be suspicious, and they have to go through the whole process of confirming them. And not to mention, there could be mediums.
A ret without a disg isn't also necessarily an auto-win for town, since that could assure other more potential game changer roles in the mafia slot.
But when both are combined, not only is town challenged to figure out who is the true ret, maf slowly regains their superiority. (in the long run)

I have a lot of nitpicks with this idea. 1. This revival wouldn't work at all if you were reviving a janitor. 2. It can be easily deconfirmed by a medium. 3. If a mayor or a jailor is dead (roles impossible to fake), the retributionist claim would be immediately suspicious because no real retributionist would choose to revive a different role. 4. If the retributionist dies, 2 mafias get killed without a doubt (the retributionist claim and the guy revived). I feel like making a mafia role that mimics an unique role just wouldn't work out.

1, I'll find a way to change that bit.
2, exactly the point, there's nothing wrong with med getting a higher chance of being an actual ts.
3, which gives maf a town role that can change the entire game, if they revive a higher-up.
4, is also exactly the point, one mistake of maf and they could lose, but, with the chaos between 2 mafias and 2 towns, which gets others involved aswell, gives more time for mafia to cooperate.

Here's my suggestion to avoid the reports issue:

Instead of using someone else's name, make it so both the Disguiser and the Retributionist revive people using new, randomly-assigned default names (ones not currently used in the game; this might require adding two new possible default names), in a random position and with a random default skin + no pet. That way, you can have an evil retri like this without having to use an existing person's name in a way that could get them in trouble.

That is to say, whether you're a retri or a disguiser, you bring back people in an anonymized fashion using a random new name like "Giles Corey" - one not currently in the game. They can't auto-prove who they are.

I'll consider this. But I kinda wanted a concept wherein a jailor or mayor isn't actually a jailor or mayor, but a, let's say, hypnotist, or ambusher, which gives those maf role the ability to control those who submit to their "authority".

I think this could be a little overpowered unless the town was TI. Nobody ever asks a dead person for a role, the only thing about if its a TI they expect them to post results. Plus, this would SUCK in a medium game where the dead person can call him out.

Uh, you're looking at a perspective wherein only the ret exists, when this role does, rets will be sus.
And whats wrong with medium getting more role/power in the game?

[BasicFourLife]

This does nothing against the Retributionist. Terrible idea.

[Kombinator1991]

I just figured, that while medium can "confirm", that a mafia member got revived instead of a townie this can be used to lie as well. Real ret. revives a townie, and dead mafia start telling, that he is disguser, when he isn't. Town lynches the ret., or the "mafia member".

The only absolute counter is when disguiser revives a mafia with a role he cannot fake, or if the real ret. revives someone else. In that case one of the 2 ret. claim, and one of the 2 revived is evil.

[oOYuuArtSuiOo]

This does nothing against the Retributionist. Terrible idea.

It does, haven't you read the full post?
It counters ret being the role that can completely confirm two roles, it counters it from reviving a very important townie if both choose to revive the same target.
Do you need more explanations?

[BasicFourLife]

This does nothing against the Retributionist. Terrible idea.

It does, haven't you read the full post?
It counters ret being the role that can completely confirm two roles, it counters it from reviving a very important townie if both choose to revive the same target.
Do you need more explanations?

Wait, I may have confused this thread with some other or accidentally written something else while I’m trying to write something else. I sometimes do this :dopey_gal: