Eulogist (Mafia Support)

[Silver1906]

I'm probably not very good at game balancing but I wanted to give it a go, so here's my reasons for making this:
First off, Town is too strong, it has a massive win rate.
Second, Transporters in particular I really hate and is something I feel the mafia struggles to deal with.
Thirdly, I don't know the official concensus on this but I think Lookout is not that great right now with how suspicious it is from so many evils claiming it. I'm hoping with how much Lookout counters the Eulogist they might be a bit more respected.

The role, while I wouldn't say it exactly counters anything in town, although I will admit it was designed to weaken the Transporter, moreso pressures town into being careful and not using certain tactics. For example, revealing and posting wills, for reasons discussed at the bottom of the page.

Name:
Eulogist

Alignment: 
Mafia Support

Summary:
You are a hidden watcher that sends letters of admiration.

Attack:
None

Defense:
None

Unique Role:
No

Abilities:
Secretly encourage another player to repeat their previous nights action.

Attributes:
Role-block Immunity.

Choose one person at night. That person will be forced to repeat their last successful night action if possible. If it is not possible, your attempt fails. Five uses.

They will not know you have targeted them.

Example:

Spoiler: Night 1 - John Smith the Sheriff decides to investigate Cowboy.

Night 2 - John Smith the Sheriff decides to investigate Lord Rabbit. BadGai the Eulogist targets John Smith. John Smith instead investigates Cowboy.

Night 3 - John Smith decides to investigate BadGai. BadGai targets John Smith. Cowboy is killed by a Serial Killer. John Smith investigates BadGai with no interruptions.

Also, if a players target was transported, their 'previous target' would still count as whoever they chose. This means if the unfortunate towny targeted A, and a transporter swapped A and B, even if B died the next night, the encouraged towny would still target A.

Notifications:

You decide to commend [Player Name].

An Eulogist sent an encouraging letter to your target! (This is for when a Spies Bugged target is encouraged)

-Investigative Results-

Sheriff: Your target is suspicious!

Investigator: Your target could be a Spy, Blackmailer, Jailer or Eulogist

Consigliere/Witch: Your target insincerely commends others, they must be a Eulogist!

Goal:
Kill all who would oppose the mafia.

Win Conditions:
You must kill the Town
You must kill Serial Killers
You must kill Arsonists
You must kill Werewolves
You win with the Witches
You win with the Mafia
You win with Survivors
You may spare anyone else

Anything Else: At first glance the Eulogist seems pretty similar to Consort, just weaker, but I think it has its own unique attributes. The main difference is that Eulogist can touch what the Consort normally can't, namely Transporters and Escorts, but here's a more in depth look at some of the stuff it can do in specific situations: Spoiler: Point #1 - Eulogist can't easily pretend town like the Consort can.

Point #2 - Eulogist cannot stop Jailors from executing, unlike Consort.

Point #3 - On the other hand, Eulogist can make Jailors execute if they killed a non-towny the previous night.

Point #4 - Eulogist can't stop Spy from seeing who the mafia visit, unlike Consort.

Point #5 - Eulogist can target Transporters, that's something Consorts and even Witches can't do, giving them a very unique utility.

Point #6 - Eulogist can occasionally use the towns abilities against themselves. Example: A transporter gives a daily will, perhaps protecting a vital townie. If the Eulogist encourages them, mafia knows who to attack to reach their target, something Consort can't do.

You could even just encourage a transporter just so you know mafia won't be accidently killing themselves anytime.

The fact the Eulogist can target Transporters may make them cautious to reveal, and Transporters find it very easy to confirm themselves. The only way a Transporter can protect themselves is to transport themselves, severely limiting their options.

Point #7 - A revealed Escort is running around. As long as you are sure they are not roleblocking another mafia, you can make them continuously block their previous target over and over.

Sometimes you maybe even want to let them continuously block another mafia member if it means that the killing role is free.

Point #8 - Admittedly on rare occasions, but Eulogist can paralyse the Serial Killer, something Consort cannot do.

If for example the Serial Killer attacks the Godfather, you can keep them doing that in a continuous loop. If they attack someone who was healed, or someone who was transported, you can also make them attack again, keeping them off the mafias back.

Point #9 - If played well, Eulogist can combo with other mafia.

Consigliere is an obvious choice for the best partner, being able to find ideal targets for encouraging. Maybe even pretending invest and getting a will out of them.

Point #10 - The Eulogist loves wills.

Example: If a doctor posts a will out in chat, and they're lucky enough to find out their last visit was a mafia member or a witch, they can then force the Doctor to protect their buddy.

Point #11 - Eulogist is great at making town suspect each other.

Roles such as Sheriff, Investigator and Lookout can really get messed up by the Eulogist. If they see someone visiting someone they shouldn't, or claiming a role they don't seem to be, everyones going to start accusing each other while the Eulogist sips tea.

Point #12 - While much harder to do and less likely to happen, Eulogist can make town kill town. Vigilante is a hard one since they'd need to have shot beforehand and have their target be transported or not die, and Bodyguard would need to be someone you suspect will be shot by said Vigilante. You could use the BG to kill a NK if you think they might target that person. The most effective one would be Crusader, since they will attack anyone that comes near whoever they're protecting.



In conclusion, I consider Eulogist a similar role to Consort, but trades weaknesses and strengths.
Consorts excel at pretending to be a towny but can't do much against Escorts and Transporters. Consorts have definitive blocks against none-immune roles.

Eulogists love to mess with Escorts and Transporters, their presence is very hard to notice, but their abilities don't really help them blend in successfully. They also can't stop their town target if their town targets previous other target died.

Eulogists hate Lookouts though. That guy is not nice.

[rdoukkali]

I might give some more feedback later(I like this role overall), but here’s one problem I spotted:

Disrupting roles, like Witch, Escort and Trans aren’t RB immune for balance, they’re immune to stop paradoxes.
Here’s an example of a paradox with your role:

Bob the Escort
Sam the Eulogist
Jack the Vig

N3:
Sam wants to target Jack, but is RB’ed by Bob.

N4:
Now Bob targets Jack, and Sam targets Bob.

See the problem?
If Bob is forced into Sam, Sam can’t force Bob into himself, meaning Bob won’t visit Sam, allowing Sam to force Bob to visit him... etc

That’s why roles like this have to be RB immune
I’ll give some more feedback later, but good concept.

[Silver1906]

I didn't consider that, but that's a fair point.

I've gone ahead and added Role-block Immunity.
Sadly this isn't really a buff since it makes it easier for Escorts to find the Eulogist, but I guess it's something.

[fwogcarf]

This role would be better if this didn't send notifications. It basically confirms that this role is in the game with those notifications

[Silver1906]

This role would be better if this didn't send notifications. It basically confirms that this role is in the game with those notifications

I did that on purpose, I figured the role would be way too powerful if there was no indication. Without knowing you were effected, it is near impossible to figure out what actually happened without a Lookout. Your targeted could have been transported by a hiding transporter for all you know.

As an expert, if you disagree I'm willing to change it.

[panapparos]

I like it.

I also don't think it needs to send notifications to the targets. Without notifications it would be a good mafia role capable of causing confusion within town.

[Silver1906]

I like it.

I also don't think it needs to send notifications to the targets. Without notifications it would be a good mafia role capable of causing confusion within town.

I'll go ahead and change it then.
I honestly thought it would be too powerful but if you're all sure it's for the best it'll be a nice little buff.

[Silver1906]

Bump

[lemonader666]

Eulogist's main purpose is to distract(a mafiaweaker witch isn't necessary bad), and consort does a better job at this. Also, this will hurt the NKs so much. Good idea though, atleast it's better than most other roles here.

[Silver1906]

Eulogist's main purpose is to distract(a mafiaweaker witch isn't necessary bad), and consort does a better job at this. Also, this will hurt the NKs so much. Good idea though, atleast it's better than most other roles here.

I don't understand how this hurts NK more than Consort apart from SK?

And yes, I would say Eulogist is weaker than Consort in general, but I would say it can come in very handy sometimes and win the game. Consort works in any situation whereas Eulogist needs actual skill and a little bit of luck.

[lemonader666]

Eulogist's main purpose is to distract(a mafiaweaker witch isn't necessary bad), and consort does a better job at this. Also, this will hurt the NKs so much. Good idea though, atleast it's better than most other roles here.

I don't understand how this hurts NK more than Consort apart from SK?

And yes, I would say Eulogist is weaker than Consort in general, but I would say it can come in very handy sometimes and win the game. Consort works in any situation whereas Eulogist needs actual skill and a little bit of luck.

1. Eulogist *can* successfully permanently "stun" the NK by repeatedly tagetting them if they know who the NK is, and there's no defense even if the NK is randomly chosen
2. It's a worse consort. Give me an example where it is better than consort.

[Silver1906]

Eulogist's main purpose is to distract(a mafiaweaker witch isn't necessary bad), and consort does a better job at this. Also, this will hurt the NKs so much. Good idea though, atleast it's better than most other roles here.

I don't understand how this hurts NK more than Consort apart from SK?

And yes, I would say Eulogist is weaker than Consort in general, but I would say it can come in very handy sometimes and win the game. Consort works in any situation whereas Eulogist needs actual skill and a little bit of luck.

1. Eulogist *can* successfully permanently "stun" the NK by repeatedly tagetting them if they know who the NK is, and there's no defense even if the NK is randomly chosen
2. It's a worse consort. Give me an example where it is better than consort.

1. Sorry, I'm not really understanding what you're trying to say here. Eulogist is less effective at stopping NKs apart from Serial Killers. Once a NK has killed someone, Eulogist can't target them again that night, unlike Consort.

2. Before I give some examples, let me explain the main power behind Eulogist.
Fear.
Just by existing in the game, Town is going to be much more cautious, something that massively benefits the mafia. If a Eulogist does happen to exist, it loves taking advantage of those misplays. In a way, even if a Eulogist doesn't do anything in a game(Which it can't really if no one tells anyone anything), it's already served it's purpose of making town not openly reveal who they are and what they did. Town is going to be less likely to reveal themselves and share wills while they suspect a Eulogist is around, something that really benefits Mafia as a whole.

Spoiler: The obvious advantage is being able to target Escorts and Transporters, effectively stunning them. I'm sure you've already thought of that one.
Going one step more extreme, Eulogist can threaten Jailors, even if they don't exist remember. If a Jailor executes a non-town, unless they're sure their next jailed target is bad, they're probably not going to want to jail next night or the Eulogist will just make them execute whoever they are jailing. Obviously, Ideally a Jailor will want to jail every night, so if a Eulogist manages to stay hidden during the game the Jailor will probably jail again. You will know if they jailed mafia, and you can probably guess if the NE is jailed. It is in your hands to choose if that guy dies.
---
On a much lesser note, but still worth mentioning, Bodyguards. If you somehow happen to find out a Bodyguard was on a mafia member, or even someone you think might die at night like Jester, that Bodyguard will kill whoever attacks them, beit Vigilante or Neutral Killing. If a Eulogist is known to be in the game, Jailor might be the one to kill the suspicious person, but that has the problem we just discussed above. That just leaves Lynching, which is Towns main way of killing, as it should be. (This tactic also works with Doctor, but it obviously won't kill the attacker)
---
On a similar but much more deadly note, Crusader. I think I've played Coven literally twice, but I do know about the Coven roles. I wouldn't think I would need to explain why this is deadly, but I will anyway. You can basically make a Crusader make another player a Veteran. If you know where the Crusader was targeting, which you really should if you targeted them, only Town and neutral roles will have a chance of dying. As with every role, Crusader will have no idea Eulogist targeted them, meaning they could be thinking that they only crusaded that one time, whereas in reality they've been protecting whoever for who knows how long. Deceptive and deadly.
---
Next up, Investigator. This should be pretty obvious, but I'll carry on anyway. If an Investigator is smart, they could probably suspect their was a Eulogist involved, but if a Eulogist is not suspected to exist, this can really cause confusion in the town. If Investigator calls someone out as such and such a role, obviously they're going to deny it. This doesn't even reveal a Eulogist, it can happen without one. This also means Investigators might consider investigating a target twice to see if their result was right and waste a night of investigation. Of course, if Eulogist is confident they won't get caught they could just target them again. There's so many ways to mess with town with this it's not even funny.
---
Moving on to Sheriff, this good boy is even weaker to Eulogist. (Yes I know, another Sheriff nerf. I didn't plan for this to happen, it just sort of did.) When you only have two results to get, it's pretty much impossible to suspect a Eulogist. There's not much variety with what you can do here, but it's extremely effective. Make Mafia members look innocent, Town members look suspicious, it's all pretty self explanatory.
---
Next up, Trappers and Lookouts. Mafia can use them for their own investigative purposes while also making Town suspicious of eachother at the same time. Trappers and Lookouts, as with any role, are much more useful to target if you know who they previously targeted, but they can be used quite well even if you don't know since you can confuse town into seeing so and so visited so and so when they claimed to have visited so and so instead(Obviously, if you don't know who was visited you don't know who to not visit yourself to not get caught in your own trap, but it still has it's uses). Lookouts can also be used to 'confirm' Mafia members as 'not mafia'. For example: A Godfather claims Bodyguard. Big surprise there. Lookout sees that A died last night to mafia, however B was visited by the Godfather, meaning they cannot be Godfather in the Towns eyes. What actually happened in this situation is that either Lookout watched A the night before, or even a long time ago and no one has visited A since, and then they thought they were watching B, but in reality they were watching A's murder take place in front of their eyes. Chaotic, huh. This one is also not as easy to claim as a Eulogist victim since Mafia themselves can use this tactic effectively. "No, I visited John Smith. You must have been Encouraged." Did I mention that since Mafia is the only one that knows what actually happened, they can then either read their posted will, or just kill them for that will, and a bunch of new helpful information that Town doesn't comprehend? Yes, they can also do that.
---
On the other hand though, Eulogist can also be easily countered. The Lookout we just mentioned that is very weak to Eulogist? Eulogist is also very to weak to the Lookout. Spy is also a great counter. Lookout can easily call out Eulogist for visiting someone that seems to have likely been Encouraged(Although they could also be cautious of revealing who they were on last night in case they've got the wrong person, or if they think there are two Eulogists. Mind games) Spy is pretty obvious, simply stating mafia visited so and so who gave a suspicious report and was probably Encouraged, pretty much countering anything Eulogist can do.
That's just some of the things Eulogist can do, which Consort literally cannot do at all. I'm sure there's probably quite a few situations I missed, but you can think of those yourself. In conclusion, yes Consort is more reliable with a roleblock every night pretty much guaranteed, but there is so much Eulogist can do it's not even funny. And as I mentioned, it doesn't even need to exist in the rolelist to give Mafia an advantage early game. All it needs is a skillful player.

[lemonader666]

Invest - Eulo
LO - Con
Sheriff - Eulo
Spy - Con
Tracker - Con
Jailor - Situational, usually Eulo
Vet - Eulo has a chance of dying
Vig - Con
BG - Con(what you said was extremely situational, plus most of the times you can't set up all of the conditions)
Doctor - Con
Crusader - Con
Trapper - Con
Escort - Eulo(this is dumb but aight)
Ret - Con
Trans - Eulo(also dumb but aight)
Arso - Con
Jugg - Con
SK - both suck
WW - both suck

In conclusion, this fulfills the same purpose as consort, and barely does anything different, usually even worse. It might as well just not get added. Also, making walls doesn't give you bonus points.

[Silver1906]

Invest - Eulo
LO - Con
Sheriff - Eulo
Spy - Con
Tracker - Con
Jailor - Situational, usually Eulo
Vet - Eulo has a chance of dying
Vig - Con
BG - Con(what you said was extremely situational, plus most of the times you can't set up all of the conditions)
Doctor - Con
Crusader - Con
Trapper - Con
Escort - Eulo(this is dumb but aight)
Ret - Con
Trans - Eulo(also dumb but aight)
Arso - Con
Jugg - Con
SK - both suck
WW - both suck

In conclusion, this fulfills the same purpose as consort, and barely does anything different, usually even worse. It might as well just not get added. Also, making walls doesn't give you bonus points.

I don't really understand what you're trying to get at here. You can't really compare Eulogist and Consort like that because they interact with each role differently.

First, I want to mention my original point that just having the possibility of this role being in the rolelist can dramatically change how town act, generally in mafias favour. Consort is only useful when it's not in the rolelist to make Escorts look like possible Consorts. That's literally their only use when they're not in the game.

Consort blocks everything and obviously so. Being able to completely stop someone from doing anything is VERY useful, but having a big text box telling them they were roleblocked is only useful for acting like an Escort. Eulogist can make others roleblock, watch and kill without the person doing it even knowing they were meddled with. It can also make other roles investigate in a way that isn't that helpful to them unless they decode what is happening, and is very helpful to mafia if they grab their will.
Consort is great, I'm not saying it's not. But making a direct comparison like that is pretty pointless, they both fill their own little niche. Consort is the more reliable and better for outright stopping people, whereas Eulogist is harder to use and great for causing mass confusion in the town.

(Also, not sure why you thought Eulogist would ever visit a veteran. It literally cannot do anything to it since the only time it does anything it kills everyone that visits it)

[Silver1906]

I can't tell if that was supposed to be an insult or not.

If it was, I was just explaining how I viewed Eulogist different to how you seemed to view it. There was no need for that.

[Kombinator1991]

It's technically just an "elite consort", if the target also forced to remain the same. If not, then it's kinda worthless. The only good thing would making jailor to execute, if known, and execute last night. Other night users usually use their night ability anyway.

If target forced, and no notification, then it could be a real mess though. Especially for invest. Gaining same result regardless of who they chose. It's both blocking their ability of investing new target, and giving them false result. This one could be handy. Maybe even too handy without a limitation.

If target notified, but forced to remain on previous one, then it's just an worse consort. Prevent target from checking new target, but reveals to everyone, that this role is in game.

[Silver1906]

It's technically just an "elite consort", if the target also forced to remain the same. If not, then it's kinda worthless. The only good thing would making jailor to execute, if known, and execute last night. Other night users usually use their night ability anyway.

If target forced, and no notification, then it could be a real mess though. Especially for invest. Gaining same result regardless of who they chose. It's both blocking their ability of investing new target, and giving them false result. This one could be handy. Maybe even too handy without a limitation.

If target notified, but forced to remain on previous one, then it's just an worse consort. Prevent target from checking new target, but reveals to everyone, that this role is in game.

Everyone seems to be thinking this is just a consort rehash. I mean, I definitely think it's very similar, but to me it has very different uses.
For example, Janitor is better than Forger, one of them is a somewhat weak deception role, the other is a strong information denial role. Even so, there are times that Forger would be better then Janitor, they do different things. I think it would be the same with these two roles.

As for the notifications, that's what I've been really struggling to sort out. Originally it did give notifications, but that seemed way too weak. It might be too powerful with none, now. I'm thinking of maybe giving limited uses, but that seems like it would weaken it too much again.

[Kombinator1991]

Everyone seems to be thinking this is just a consort rehash. I mean, I definitely think it's very similar, but to me it has very different uses.

This is why you're not giving up on it's current form. TG won't even accept it anyway.

Well he has a point. Janitor, and Forger are kinda similar too. It is extrelemy difficult to use forger more effectively, than janitor. You need target's role, and previous results mustn't revealed yet. Then you need to open a notepad, write fake will, then copy-paste it during night. In most cases you just empty the target will which makes just a weaker janitor. Yet both roles are in game.

This one can be far more efficient, or weaker, than consort depending on stuff we add. To me the most reasonable is making it notification less, and limited use.
With notification it's just a weaker consort. As unlike consort it can't even fake a town role.
Without notification it's an elite consort. Not just blocking target, but even messing with results.
Without notification, but limited ability use it can be quite balanced, if you can learn townies roles. Forcing jailor to execute again, if no maf member jailed, messing sheriff results, and messing invest's results. However since it's pretty far from janitor the limitation should be bigger than 3. 5 might work for it.

[Bodhrak]

Well he has a point. Janitor, and Forger are kinda similar too.

"Look at this BS that is already in the game" should never be an argument for your role. Never.
We know the game is unbalanced and there are roles which shouldn't be there in the first place (like half the Coven roles).
That doesn't justify making more terrible roles or ones that are very similar to what we already have.

[Silver1906]

Everyone seems to be thinking this is just a consort rehash. I mean, I definitely think it's very similar, but to me it has very different uses.

This is why you're not giving up on it's current form. TG won't even accept it anyway.

So you're saying I'm not allowed to defend my work when you clearly don't understand any of its uses? Last time I checked, giving comments that just complain about a role with no advice or constructive feedback aside from 'this is useless, it's not even worth adding' is frowned upon on this forum. If this is going to be your attitude towards me I will have to ask you to refrain from commenting on my posts again.

Everyone seems to be thinking this is just a consort rehash. I mean, I definitely think it's very similar, but to me it has very different uses.

This is why you're not giving up on it's current form. TG won't even accept it anyway.

Well he has a point. Janitor, and Forger are kinda similar too. It is extrelemy difficult to use forger more effectively, than janitor. You need target's role, and previous results mustn't revealed yet. Then you need to open a notepad, write fake will, then copy-paste it during night. In most cases you just empty the target will which makes just a weaker janitor. Yet both roles are in game.

This one can be far more efficient, or weaker, than consort depending on stuff we add. To me the most reasonable is making it notification less, and limited use.
With notification it's just a weaker consort. As unlike consort it can't even fake a town role.
Without notification it's an elite consort. Not just blocking target, but even messing with results.
Without notification, but limited ability use it can be quite balanced, if you can learn townies roles. Forcing jailor to execute again, if no maf member jailed, messing sheriff results, and messing invest's results. However since it's pretty far from janitor the limitation should be bigger than 3. 5 might work for it.

I was actually thinking 5 uses as well. I'll try that and see if people like it.

[Silver1906]

Well he has a point. Janitor, and Forger are kinda similar too.

"Look at this BS that is already in the game" should never be an argument for your role. Never.
We know the game is unbalanced and there are roles which shouldn't be there in the first place (like half the Coven roles).
That doesn't justify making more terrible roles or ones that are very similar to what we already have.

I wasn't justifying Forger existing, it definitely needs to be buffed, but it was something I could use as a good example of something that was considered much worse than a similar role that could sometimes help win the game where the other couldn't. Maybe I didn't phrase it right.

[Silver1906]

Bumparoo

[Mystoc]

this has been suggested many times.

its flawed cause its worse then an RB, tp still protects the important person, it can maybe fool TI but thats the only upside compared to a consort

[Silver1906]

this has been suggested many times.

its flawed cause its worse then an RB, tp still protects the important person, it can maybe fool TI but thats the only upside compared to a consort

I wouldn't say it's a worse RB, just different. The TI fooling is probably the most useful, yes, but there's plenty of times the Eulogist could be more useful that I've mentioned in other replies and the end of the post itself. Eulogist is very situational and pounces at opportunitys.

If you want to show me that Eulogist is useless I need you to explain it to me otherwise I just won't be understanding.

[Mystoc]

its only useful with sherrif, lo or inves thats it, otherwise its a worse consort, i didn't say it was useless i said it was a worse consort