Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

How is it?

Awesome!
19
41%
Good but could use some tweaks
10
22%
Alright, definitely needs some work
5
11%
Meh
8
17%
Core mechanic is broken, not fun, or terrible
4
9%
 
Total votes : 46

Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby EgyptFalcon » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:51 pm

Role Name:
Riddler

Role Alignment:
Mafia (Killing)

Abilities:
- Choose one person each day to riddle that night, cannot riddle first day/night

Attributes:
- Target is given X guesses for the identity of the Riddler
- If the target guesses correctly, the Riddler will commit suicide
- If the target guesses incorrectly, they will be attacked (basic) and if they die their will is wiped (to prevent recording who they guessed)

Players alive (total):...........Number of guesses (X):...........Chance of Guessing Riddler (completely random guesses):
2-5.................................0......................................0%
6-10...............................1......................................11%-20%
11-14..............................2......................................15%-20%
15..................................3......................................21%

Notifications:
- "You have been riddled! You have [X] guesses to reveal his identity!"

Goal:
Kill anyone who doesn't submit to Mafia.

Win Conditions:
Must kill the Town
Wins with Survivors
Wins with the Mafia
Must kill the Coven
Must kill Serial Killers
Must kill Arsonists
Wins with Witches
Must kill Werewolves
Must kill Vampires

Special Attributes:
Has their own death note.

Investigator Results:
Sheriff - Your target is a member of the Mafia.
Investigator - Your target could be a Lookout, Forger, Witch, or Riddler.
Consigliere - Your target is delighted by puzzles. They must be a Riddler.

Additional Information:
Although the Riddler can get two kills for the Mafia in one night, there are significant risks involved. Even one or two easily confirmed town members (Mayor, Jailor, Vet, Retri, etc.) can drive up the chances of finding the Riddler by quite a bit. Therefore a Riddler should only target people they have bought and can't afford to be silent or look suspicious at all. Bussing a fellow mafia member early on in the game to confirm a TI claim could in fact be quite beneficial.

Lore:
As I jump with joy and glee,
I give you my riddles three,
What is my role, they call me the troll,
Will you solve my identity?
Last edited by EgyptFalcon on Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:41 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby sportakus1 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:42 pm

This is basically a escort + mafioso. Idea is not bad, tho the target shouldnt be roleblocked. If oyu want riddler to rolelbock people, then he shouldnt commit suicide as the townie that guesses Riddler´s number will know who to get then.

Basically. Something. You get my gist.
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Spoiler: -investigator
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby EgyptFalcon » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:50 pm

sportakus1 wrote:This is basically a escort + mafioso. Idea is not bad, tho the target shouldnt be roleblocked. If oyu want riddler to rolelbock people, then he shouldnt commit suicide as the townie that guesses Riddler´s number will know who to get then.

Basically. Something. You get my gist.


But if Riddler suicides... he's dead. Sorry, don't get your gist.

Also the roleblocking is a necessity of how the game works -- it's why Pirate roleblocks as well. If you didn't roleblock Veteran would just alert and kill you every time.
Last edited by EgyptFalcon on Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby Helicooler » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:09 pm

I feel like the chance should be increased by ~3-5% and it should be you find their identity instead of them dying.
On the other hand, I think this is actually quite a good idea.
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby TheDebil » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:23 pm

i think this should be a neutral chaos instead of mafia, and make his win scenario to kill 3 players.
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby EgyptFalcon » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:45 pm

Helicooler wrote:I feel like the chance should be increased by ~3-5% and it should be you find their identity instead of them dying.
On the other hand, I think this is actually quite a good idea.


Note that these probabilities are if the person is guessing at COMPETE RANDOM. If there is a single town confirmed, let it be Veteran, Jailor, Retri, or Mayor, these percentages go up into 30-40s quite quickly. (These percentages are calculated, not made up). And finding their identity would just be Consigliere so there has to be a significant payoff for successfully riddling an opponent -- KILLING THEM!!! :RIP:
Last edited by EgyptFalcon on Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby EgyptFalcon » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:29 pm

TheDebil wrote:i think this should be a neutral chaos instead of mafia, and make his win scenario to kill 3 players.


I considered the possibility of making it neutral, but I decided against it for two reasons. First, I would have to give them basic defense, at which point all of mafia has a much greater chance of knowing who they are and spies could uncover their secret very easily. And secondly, the Riddler does best with teamwork -- he needs other mafia to "confirm" him and/or other mafia to feed him useful information to use.
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby MegaLT » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:38 pm

Veteran is immune to roleblock anyways, so even if it has roleblock or not, it still kills the veteran, I dont find roleblock nessesary thought....
I also dont think that it should die after being revealed, after all, town would know him.... because if player randomly guesses it would be big blow to mafia seeing maf members die so early..
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby EgyptFalcon » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:41 pm

MegaLT wrote:Veteran is immune to roleblock anyways, so even if it has roleblock or not, it still kills the veteran, I dont find roleblock nessesary thought....
I also dont think that it should die after being revealed, after all, town would know him.... because if player randomly guesses it would be big blow to mafia seeing maf members die so early..


Veteran can't alert when pirated. The roleblock is the same as the pirate's roleblock.
I wanted compensation for him being an independent Mafia killer. I suppose learning his identity is the same punishment Ambusher gets...
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby theyellowgreninja » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:59 pm

Ok ok ok so I like this, I do, but maybe have him chill with the killing every night (like, 2 on one off or something), and make it so they can always make a guess (0 guesses is dumb and kind of makes this role just mafia SK, big no no). Otherwise, this is cool, actually. I like the RB too, but he needs to chill, basically. 2KPN is crazy for mafia, and Ambusher pushes those bounds already.
Also, this should never be allowed to be in the same game as Ambusher. 3KPN is literally bonkers. No other faction can reasonably expect that from a given role list (without decimating their own team in the process, like if you have 3 vigis).


Forum Mafia:
4 - 6 Record Spoiler: NFM40 - Citizen died N3 - Mafia/Witch Win
NFM41 - Consigliere lived - Mafia Win
SFM28 - Citizen lived - Mafia/Neutral Win
NFM44 - Serial Killer died N1 - Mafia win
VFM22 - Citizen died N3 - Mafia/Serial Killer win
SFM39 - Braum lived - Demacia (Town) win
GFM2.43 - Common Myeloid Progenitor Colony (Ret) lived - Neoplasm (NK) win
SFM56 - Ninja Killed by Veteran N3 - Mafia win
VFM48 - Citizen lynched D6 - Mafia Win
Hiatus
SFM72 - Stalker/SK Lived - Stalker/Assassin win And you cannot tell me otherwise
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:35 pm

While you could discuss the problems with the guessing mechanic, I would like to focus on the RNG factor in this role. What this does is provide swing thst is not dependent on skill. It is not fair to somebody who does really well to be killed for guessing right the second time the exact opposite is true for somebody who survives without getting it right until the second to last guess. The RNG mechanic needs to be removed.

You can also discuss the power of this role. If somebody guesses the right player correctly, the Riddle dies. This means that it is not near as powerful as the Mafioso, who consistently kills somebody each night. Mafioso on all levels is a stronger role than the Riddler, and therefore the Riddler is weak. It is important to balance each role equally to prevent swing being introduced in the rolelist.
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby EgyptFalcon » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:45 pm

Gooose26 wrote:While you could discuss the problems with the guessing mechanic, I would like to focus on the RNG factor in this role. What this does is provide swing thst is not dependent on skill. It is not fair to somebody who does really well to be killed for guessing right the second time the exact opposite is true for somebody who survives without getting it right until the second to last guess. The RNG mechanic needs to be removed.

You can also discuss the power of this role. If somebody guesses the right player correctly, the Riddle dies. This means that it is not near as powerful as the Mafioso, who consistently kills somebody each night. Mafioso on all levels is a stronger role than the Riddler, and therefore the Riddler is weak. It is important to balance each role equally to prevent swing being introduced in the rolelist.


But Mafioso and Godfather can only get one kill between the two of them... the Riddler kills independently of the Godfather.

Although there is some RNG in this role it is much more about mind games. There is absolutely skill involved in determining roles -- which is exactly what Riddler forces you to do. You probably don't want to Riddle investigative as they might have more information on who you might be. The person being targeted has to try to scum read and put all the info they have together. Also I'm very confused by your wording. "It is not fair to somebody who does really well to be killed for guessing right the second time the exact opposite is true for somebody who survives without getting it right until the second to last guess." What?
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby Gooose26 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:06 pm

EgyptFalcon wrote:
Gooose26 wrote:While you could discuss the problems with the guessing mechanic, I would like to focus on the RNG factor in this role. What this does is provide swing thst is not dependent on skill. It is not fair to somebody who does really well to be killed for guessing right the second time the exact opposite is true for somebody who survives without getting it right until the second to last guess. The RNG mechanic needs to be removed.

You can also discuss the power of this role. If somebody guesses the right player correctly, the Riddle dies. This means that it is not near as powerful as the Mafioso, who consistently kills somebody each night. Mafioso on all levels is a stronger role than the Riddler, and therefore the Riddler is weak. It is important to balance each role equally to prevent swing being introduced in the rolelist.


But Mafioso and Godfather can only get one kill between the two of them... the Riddler kills independently of the Godfather.

Although there is some RNG in this role it is much more about mind games. There is absolutely skill involved in determining roles -- which is exactly what Riddler forces you to do. You probably don't want to Riddle investigative as they might have more information on who you might be. The person being targeted has to try to scum read and put all the info they have together. Also I'm very confused by your wording. "It is not fair to somebody who does really well to be killed for guessing right the second time the exact opposite is true for somebody who survives without getting it right until the second to last guess." What?

You guess right the second time, you are a good player --> You still die
You guess right the second time, you are a bad player --> You still live

This kind of injustice is what makes the role swingy, that is what I mean.

Also, there is very little basis when guessing roles. You can scumread somebody as evil but there isn't much to go off of other than just thinking someone is evil. What you are doing is describing how to play the role rather than focusing on the balance of the role, it is a very common think you see among rolemakers. I'm not curious how to play the role, I'm curious if it is fair compared to the rest of the game.
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby MegaLT » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:10 am

EgyptFalcon wrote:
MegaLT wrote:Veteran is immune to roleblock anyways, so even if it has roleblock or not, it still kills the veteran, I dont find roleblock nessesary thought....
I also dont think that it should die after being revealed, after all, town would know him.... because if player randomly guesses it would be big blow to mafia seeing maf members die so early..


Veteran can't alert when pirated. The roleblock is the same as the pirate's roleblock.
I wanted compensation for him being an independent Mafia killer. I suppose learning his identity is the same punishment Ambusher gets...



Veteran CAN alert while pirated. I had more than 1 game where pirate gets killed by veteran, I even myself killed pirate as veteran 2times.
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby PikamanUltra » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:04 pm

Cool concept! But im not sure how the execution is... btw I voted meh
I feel like this should be similar to pirate, succesfuly kill 3 people as NK
I feel like the suicide is kinda unneeded. Target should just be told they got it right, maybe day chat is informed too incase of exe claim.
Rb makes sense
I feel the d1 cooldown needs to be longer, I say you should be able to riddle by N3 rather than N2, it puts serious pressure on someone and it's too hard, your whole idea is towwn is rando guessing and i dont like that.
Overall, nice job! Good potential but lacks the current punch imho. Clearly the poll disagrees tho, so u do u
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Re: Riddler (Mafia Killing)

Postby Brilliand » Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:51 pm

EgyptFalcon wrote: - If the target guesses incorrectly, they will be attacked (basic) and if they die their will is wiped (to prevent recording who they guessed)


It comes to mind that this can be defeated with a meta that tells players exactly what to guess. Example: "Guess the X players below you, skipping any that would have been included in a previously-killed player's guess according to this meta".
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