Juggernaut Rework

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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:49 pm

fwogcarf wrote:I've actually never seen a Juggernaut in game, so I'd like to see it more.

Like all of these changes, but this can't be in ranked

Juggernaut is the worst and most broken NK which needs changes. Just read about it on Wiki if you do not know how it works. Also why couldn't this be in Ranked? As long as the NK spot exists it is a possible NK role to add along Serial Killer, Arsonist and Butcher.
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby DragonClaw66 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:49 pm

This is a very interesting rework for the Juggernaut. I like it. Lemonader says that because it kills slower than the Serial Killer it is automatically less powerful. In a way, that is kind of true. Killing for the Neutral Killings is more important than deception in pretty much all scenarios. Despite these facts, this would probably be the most entertaining Neutral Killing for players.

This reworked version of the Juggernaut is not underpowered in anyway (it is quite good), but I don't think anything could be on par with the Serial Killer.
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby Mystoc » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:16 pm

- After every second successful kill, your current Tier will be lowered by one.


should after every second kill attempt, that way TP is rewarded for outplaying you
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:32 am

DragonClaw66 wrote:This is a very interesting rework for the Juggernaut. I like it. Lemonader says that because it kills slower than the Serial Killer it is automatically less powerful. In a way, that is kind of true. Killing for the Neutral Killings is more important than deception in pretty much all scenarios. Despite these facts, this would probably be the most entertaining Neutral Killing for players.

This reworked version of the Juggernaut is not underpowered in anyway (it is quite good), but I don't think anything could be on par with the Serial Killer.

Arsonist is stronger than Serial Killer even though it has half the KP Serial Killer does.

Mystoc wrote:
- After every second successful kill, your current Tier will be lowered by one.


should after every second kill attempt, that way TP is rewarded for outplaying you

They'd be punished way too much. If they unsuccessfully kill, they waste a night anyways since they don't kill NOR gain any tiers. They'd don't need to be able to lose a tier also.
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby Brilliand » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:59 am

BasicFourLife wrote:You know what time it is


I think you're gonna have to spell if out for us.
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:52 pm

Brilliand wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:You know what time it is


I think you're gonna have to spell if out for us.

that was a bumped post from half a year ago, begone ty
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby Brilliand » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:14 pm

I was expecting some sort of explanation for why you would necro this old thing.

Well, since it's on the front page now, I may as well comment on it...

BasicFourLife wrote:Yeah it looks low on KPN, I'm increasing its KPN by making that by changing this part
- After every successful second kill, your tier will be lowered by one.

This increases its KPN all the way up to 0.75


That's a 0.66 KPN, not a 0.75 KPN. The pattern is Kill-Kill-Boost.

My recommendation: Don't lower the tier at all. The nights spent doing nothing at the start of the game are a high enough price to pay for the added power.

Other than that, it... looks about like the current Juggernaut to me, albeit less swingy. Note that the Rampage ability does a pretty good job of providing Lookout immunity.
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:49 pm

Brilliand wrote:I was expecting some sort of explanation for why you would necro this old thing.

Well, since it's on the front page now, I may as well comment on it...

BasicFourLife wrote:Yeah it looks low on KPN, I'm increasing its KPN by making that by changing this part
- After every successful second kill, your tier will be lowered by one.

This increases its KPN all the way up to 0.75


That's a 0.66 KPN, not a 0.75 KPN. The pattern is Kill-Kill-Boost.

My recommendation: Don't lower the tier at all. The nights spent doing nothing at the start of the game are a high enough price to pay for the added power.

Other than that, it... looks about like the current Juggernaut to me, albeit less swingy. Note that the Rampage ability does a pretty good job of providing Lookout immunity.

Rampage is garbage and if you want to argue its goodness, you don’t deserve existence.
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:27 am

BasicFourLife wrote:Rampage is garbage and if you want to argue its goodness, you don’t deserve existence.


Nice argument.

I wasn't arguing its goodness, I was pointing out a similarity. Rampage gives Lookout immunity among its various effects. Astral also does this, and your Investigation immunity also does this. So the Lookout immunity in particular isn't something you changed about the role.
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:54 am

Brilliand wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:Rampage is garbage and if you want to argue its goodness, you don’t deserve existence.


Nice argument.

I wasn't arguing its goodness, I was pointing out a similarity. Rampage gives Lookout immunity among its various effects. Astral also does this, and your Investigation immunity also does this. So the Lookout immunity in particular isn't something you changed about the role.

Ok, the Lookout can still survive rampage attacks and astral visits do way more then just LO immunity
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:46 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
Brilliand wrote:Rampage gives Lookout immunity among its various effects. Astral also does this, and your Investigation immunity also does this. So the Lookout immunity in particular isn't something you changed about the role.

Ok, the Lookout can still survive rampage attacks and astral visits do way more then just LO immunity


On that note, perhaps this role should have Astral instead of Investigation Immunity? I'm not really happy about it having Spy bug and Psychic immunity; I think it would make more sense for it to have Trapper, Bodyguard and Veteran immunity. (The sheriff immunity should stay, but I'd indicate that with the standard "Detection Immunity" keyword.)

Purely for flavor, though: instead of having the Juggernaut completely hidden from the Lookout, have the Lookout see the words "the Juggernaut" in place of the player's name. Lore-wise, there's no indication that the Juggernaut should be able to hide, though it would make fine sense for him to be unrecognizable as a human. (Heck, maybe the Werewolf should get that sort of lookout immunity too.)
Last edited by Brilliand on Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:31 am

Learn how to use quotes wrote:
Brilldumby wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:Rampage gives Lookout immunity among its various effects. Astral also does this, and your Investigation immunity also does this. So the Lookout immunity in particular isn't something you changed about the role.

Ok, the Lookout can still survive rampage attacks and astral visits do way more then just LO immunity


On that note, perhaps this role should have Astral instead of Investigation Immunity? I'm not really happy about it having Spy bug and Psychic immunity; I think it would make more sense for it to have Trapper, Bodyguard and Veteran immunity. (The sheriff immunity should stay, but I'd indicate that with the standard "Detection Immunity" keyword.)

Purely for flavor, though: instead of having the Juggernaut completely hidden from the Lookout, have the Lookout see the words "the Juggernaut" in place of the player's name. Lore-wise, there's no indication that the Juggernaut should be able to hide, though it would make fine sense for him to be unrecognizable as a human. (Heck, maybe the Werewolf should get that sort of lookout immunity too.)

im not here for your opinion, all you would do is make the role inconsistent against alignments with affecting some roles and others not in an alignment. Astral visits are pretty shit as they counter very very specific roles such as Lookout, Spy, Veteran, Bodyguard but in every category it still has roles which it does not counter Sheriff, Investigator, Doctor, Vigilante (if role doesnt have night immunity). This is why I don't listen to you on these forums, you use fancy words but don't realize what impact they would have on actual gameplay. Now go back into your corner from where you came from
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:56 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:im not here for your opinion, all you would do is make the role inconsistent against alignments with affecting some roles and others not in an alignment.


Exactly like the current Detection Immunity and Night Immunity do? Every immunity is quite specific in its effects. Your "investigative immunity" is actually novel (relative to the game as it currently exists) in that it tries to immunize against a full sub-alignment, although it doesn't quite succeed because the Investigator isn't blocked at all and the Lookout, Tracker and Psychic aren't 100% rendered useless (they can call out this role in certain edge cases).
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby lemonader666 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:41 pm

Brilliand
Writing walls full of soulless words mean nothing, they only make you look pretentious and condescending.
Talk like a normal person for fucks sake
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby Brilliand » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:41 pm

lemonader666 wrote:Brilliand
Writing walls full of soulless words mean nothing, they only make you look pretentious and condescending.
Talk like a normal person for fucks sake


Flame warrior duel

Philosopher vs. Howlers

GO

Nah man, I'm not going to adopt your style, both because it sucks at expressing the things that I want to express, and because I think it looks dumb. But thanks anyway.
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby lemonader666 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:02 am

Better to look human than to look reddit-like
Plus you love to address the argument by cherry picking too
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby Brilliand » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:19 am

lemonader666 wrote:Better to look human than to look reddit-like


Granted, this isn't how I behave in real life. In real life, I would just reply to one point, because I wouldn't want to deny you the chance to immediately reply to my reply.

lemonader666 wrote:Plus you love to address the argument by cherry picking too


I guess you could call it that, when I don't reply to things that I've accepted as correct, or things that are just baseless insults, or things that I can't think of any appropriate way to address.

Very well, I'll go back and indicate my opinion of some things that I didn't address.

(Quoted because it's long, and because I don't want to imply that those quoted need to respond.)
(I tried to spoiler it first but it didn't work what I don't understand)

BasicFourLife wrote:Ok, the Lookout can still survive rampage attacks and astral visits do way more then just LO immunity


He's right. It doesn't completely destroy my point, but it's a valid objection.

BasicFourLife wrote:Astral visits are pretty shit as they counter very very specific roles such as Lookout, Spy, Veteran, Bodyguard but in every category it still has roles which it does not counter Sheriff, Investigator, Doctor, Vigilante (if role doesnt have night immunity).


I did address this, though I didn't quote it. Addressing the sentence before it sufficed.

BasicFourLife wrote:This is why I don't listen to you on these forums, you use fancy words but don't realize what impact they would have on actual gameplay. Now go back into your corner from where you came from


Baseless insults.

lemonader666 wrote:Writing walls full of soulless words mean nothing


I'm really not sure how to evaluate the accusation that my posts are "walls of soulless words". I decided to read it as an expression of dislike rather than a statement of fact.

lemonader666 wrote:they only make you look pretentious and condescending.


Y'know... I wrote a response to this, then deleted it. It didn't seem important enough when you JUST finished accusing me of writing walls... and also, it seemed a bit rude.

But, to summarize: I'll cop to being condescending. Pretentious, I don't think so. Doing things better isn't being pretentious.

lemonader666 wrote:...than to look reddit-like


Okay, what? You apparently use the word "reddit" as something assumed to be horrible by default, and I can't make out why. I didn't learn these habits on Reddit, I learned them on other forums, and Reddit gave me a pretty mixed reaction to it. (All those people posting r/wooosh... gives me PTSD. The mild kind.)

This doesn't really seem worth taking you to task for, which is why I put it here, but... that's what I'm thinking.
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:49 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:You know what time it is


I think you're gonna have to spell if out for us.

that was a bumped post from half a year ago, begone ty


I already asked you to leave once. Please do so. I'm asking you nicely this time.
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:42 am

im bored, why not make this a topic, my favourite role ever created since it basically is a completely new role just with the Juggernaut’s name and lore, epic
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Re: Juggernaut Rework

Postby StrahmDude » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:02 pm

Guys, please take non-related comments to dms or something. Thank you! Also, please be more specific basicFourLife.
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