Role Idea: Solicitor (Forger Overhaul) (Slightly Reworked)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

1. Solictor Vs Forger 2. Should the second visit be astral?

1. Forger (currently) is better
1
20%
Forger (Suggested change in my analyses (second post)) is better
0
No votes
Solicitor is better
2
40%
They can co-exist!
1
20%
2. Yes, lets make the spies doubt themselves!
1
20%
No, its unbalanced and make this role too powerful
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 5

Role Idea: Solicitor (Forger Overhaul) (Slightly Reworked)

Postby sunbird1002 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:09 pm

I haven't made many overhauls in a while, but I had an idea, originally an NE, which I gradually saw could become a possible Forger replacement. Forger isn't the strongest of roles, so I think that this may be a cool way to reform it.

You are a corrupt lawyer who often misplaces wills.
Name: Solicitor

Alignment: Mafia Deception

Goal: Standard Mafia

Wins with: Mafia
Witches
Survivors
Must Kill: Town
Serial Killers
Arsonists
Werewolf
Vampires


Abilities: Choose two people at night, swapping their wills

Attributes: You will get 2 columns of checkboxes, like the Transporter
The first row is for non-Mafia only
Your second row is for everyone, including Mafia
Your second row visit is astral
You can use your abilities 2 times
The wills will remain switched until the Solicitor changes his pair, dies or is promoted to a Mafioso
There may only be 1 switched pair at a time.
If the Solicitor change its current pair where BOTH members of the previous pair are alive, it will not use an ability, but it will notify both people in the previous pair about the Solicitor's attempts to change their wills
When one switched person dies, they will reveal the most recent saved version of the other's will.
Priority: 4


Investigative Results:
Sheriff: Your target is a member of the Mafia!
Investigator: Your target has an overview of people's information. They must be a Lookout, Amnesiac or Solicitor
OR
Your target regularly meddles with death. They must be a Doctor, Medium, Solicitor or Butcher (TG Variant)
Consigliere: Your target has a large stack of will paper. They must be a Solicitor!


Flavour Text:
Spoiler: When choosing target 1: You have decided to swap ______'s will
When changing your mind: You have instead decided to swap ______'s will
When choosing target 2: You have decided to switch _______'s will
When changing your mind: You have instead decided to switch ______'s will


Special Notes:
Spoiler: This variant, in my opinion, gives the Forger/Solicitor so much more to do. Switching 2 Townie wills can confuse the town, and discourages leaving your will reveal too late. As well as that, it can forge its own wills (By choosing himself, the Solicitor can make forgeries to a random member, and also allows the mafia to forge wills too, but this needs to have some co-operation. It can also semi-confirm Mafia, by the Mafia being switched, the other person dying, it leaving a will which looks like a legit town will, but by a different name. As well as that, Disguisers now have an easier job.

Lore: Spoiler: In a dingy little house, at the corner of the town, a chest, old, rusty and stiff, stood at the very edge of the room. It contained nothing, but large stacks of will paper, bottles of ink, and quill pens. This was the home of the Solicitor. The sign on the door has been long rusted and smoothed, with age, until its very message became unintelligible. The Solicitor sat, brooding over a large pile of wills, kindly, oh so kindly, given by the Town.

Well, in the past, in the long past, the Town could trust the Solictor. They would deposit their wills, so, if they were attacked, or endangered in any way, they know their wills would be safe. The Solicitor was not a man to be dealt with, and not one who would give into threats. His failing sight was his only weakness. It was many a time when he unwittingly let an intruder in. The Janitor was a silent beast.

Yet that was then. Now, he broods, seeing what he could get away with. He was never particularly respected, only accepted. He liked the extra pay in his pockets, and his unique disposition allowed him to get away with several things. He wouldn't feel guilt. He was never taught right and wrong, only strength and weakness. It would be so easy just to switch two wills, just to weaken the newly formed enemy. How about making his own? How about... He stopped, startled at his newfound ingenuity. He began writing, feverishly. Of course, they would find the Sheriff's will on him when he passes, but was he going to pass? Not if he had anything to do with it. And so, when the Sheriff died, by the hands of the Mafia, he commented on the suggestiveness of its contents. On how, someone who was thought to be innocent, was not. He lucidly filled in the loose ends suggested by the will. The town swayed to his command like puppets, and he enjoyed it.

He knew he couldn't do something of this risk again. Yet, perhaps, the Mafia could assist him. Perhaps, they could let the fun continue. Perhaps, they could prove themselves stronger than they had ever thought themselves before...
Last edited by sunbird1002 on Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Role Idea: Solicitor (Forger Overhaul)

Postby BasicFourLife » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:51 pm

How does this help? It’s much less useful than original Forger.
I am kindly telling you to fuck off. Thank you.

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Re: Role Idea: Solicitor (Forger Overhaul)

Postby sunbird1002 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:20 pm

Well, while it could be seen as weaker as a forger (if the switched mafia dies, then the real town will gets leaked), but I can see quite a few upsides. It can be used as an original forger, as the Solicitor can switch others wills for theres, which means either a convincing forgery, or a blank will can be replaced. Similar things can happen to other mafia members. There can be confusion, when a will is replaced between 2 town members, as well as it is able to create certain scenarios (such as switching a legit looking mafia will with a town), where it can make mafia members look like victims of the Solicitor, not the perpetrators of it. As well as that, it gives Disguisers more claim space, with this role within the game. Also, the wills can be switched whenever, so, for example, lynching a switched person will reveal the switching of the wills. Also, mafia can fake this role, by creating wills in other people's names, and, if they die, it will look like their will has been switched. I can see this role going for more dynamic games. Yet, what do I know? I am only a silver rank in ranked, and a Doctor on this forum, and I have never participated in TG games (though it might be interesting to do in my summer holidays). Perhaps you can see something I cant.


(EVERYTHING AFTER THIS POINT IS EDITED)
OK, I now see my role through less rose tinted spectacles, and I do need to consider if it is at all much better than the Forger. I am, as I admit, a silver rank in ranked, so I may not have the best point of view. Here are the upsides and downsides of both roles.

Forger
Upsides
Can destroy information
Can create misinformation (if done well, it can be trusted 100%)
Can prepare wills the night before, to deal with downsides

Downsides
Limited time to create wills
(Is destroying information really the Forger's job?)
The double visit to Spies gives them away

Can the downsides be dealt with?
This may be dealt with if the Forger is allowed to visit their target to change their will. They will get an extra will button. Anyone who dies who the Forger has forged would appear with the Forger's extra will. This also deals with the limited time problem, as the Forger can constantly edit their wills, but they need to be dedicated to the people they chose

Solicitor

Upsides
Can create misinformation
Can reveal Town members in inopportune moments by someone dying with their will being revealed
Can also attempt to reveal Mafia with Town-like wills to semi-confirm them as Town by someone dying and their will being revealed
A night time death can give cover to Disguisers
This role can be faked by Mafia, by them dying and them having wills with other people's names on. This suggests that a solicitor switched the wills with those members
Can shade perfectly good wills (If a Mafia member has a will with someone else's name on, then it looks like the Solicitor has changed someone's will with a well done fake Mafia one.) This can mean that information can be shaded.

Downsides
Cannot destroy information
Once a double will has been found, one version cannot be 100% trusted, unless confirmed by a Medium or Retributionist
If a town is found with someone elses will, this role is almost confirmed (assuming there are no Disguisers within that game)

Can the downsides be dealt with?
For now, in this role's early stages, I cannot but think that the downsides cannot be completely bypassed. However, I don't know whether the downsides of this role are merely balancing features or serious flaws.

Which is better?
I have little idea. I think that the Solicitor offers a wider range of utility, but I am biased, of course. If enough people want it, I can turn that into the poll.
Last edited by sunbird1002 on Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Role Idea: Solicitor (Forger Overhaul)

Postby screeee » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:48 pm

I think this role is great but I would suggest 1 change, Get rid of the second astral visit.
It doesn't make sense and can also make spy doubt themselves as you can visit maf.
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Re: Role Idea: Solicitor (Forger Overhaul)

Postby sunbird1002 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:36 pm

For now, the Spy's only real ability is to confirm people not mafia, by seeing who mafia visit. I understand that people are asking for this to be changed. On the same page, there is a post by Kirize12 saying why it should be removed. I just don't think spies other ability is that good. Its like Lookout, but without knowing who visits, only knowing what happens. As people usually reveal what happens in their night, I can see this not being as useful as TIs. Sure, I can change the poll here, to ask whether this is better than Forger, and whether the second visit is to be astral, for Spies. I'll do that. I can see that some people don't like that Spies can confirm non-Mafia, but Spies themselves are easily faked. Just my opinion. Let me change the poll now.
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Re: Role Idea: Solicitor (Forger Overhaul)

Postby sunbird1002 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:06 pm

I have now added Lore, and may I have some more feedback? I know its quite a bit to ask, but I do feel some confidence with this idea.
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Re: Role Idea: Solicitor (Forger Overhaul)

Postby Mystoc » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:54 pm

The wills will remain switched for the rest of the game


yea but people will just put their names at the top of their wills and ur 100% countered like old disguiser

You can choose yourself once


thats a huge nerf, but the rest of the changes make it laughably ignorable cause the role is OP now

this rework is bad it has unlimited uses to make peoples wills be swapped sure people will know right away they are fake wills cause of name at top of will but

going from 3 forges to unlimited is OP
not mention it swaps two wills at once so it works twice as fast

in just 3-4 days a forger can swap all town's wills who are alive

making it so any town role the dies will have useless info related to them

=======================================================

you also don't realize if you swap wills with john and sam and john dies sams will gets displayed now upon johns death

problem is sam is still alive right so now sams role just got outed to everyone because of johns death (people always put names in wills)

this make this role is a will deleter with unlimited uses and consig like powers

people would just not use wills and notepad instead ur role is too destructive to the game
ofc people could choose to stop putting names in wills but then the first part of your role isn't countered anymore so its cant win cant loose situation

only TI Jailor and transporter NEED wills rest of town just need a will to copy and paste when asked for one to prove they are town, this where notepad comes in
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Re: Role Idea: Solicitor (Forger Overhaul)

Postby sunbird1002 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:23 pm

Mystoc. 3 words. Read the role.
You can use your abilities 3 times

This is in there. So, thats 1 argument completely disbanded.

Secondly, this cannot and will not delete any information of any sort. Your sam and John example works both ways. When Sam dies, John's Will will also be shown. This actually means it CANNOT delete information. Unlike previous Forger, where information is replaced, in this role, information is redistributed instead.

Also, I foresaw that people will put their names in the top of their wills. Now, let's go back to the Sam and John example. John is dead. Sam's will is shown. Now, Sam's role is outed, which could make her confirmed Town. This means that, though John's will isn't shown, which could have interesting information, Sam is now confirmed town...

Or is she? As you know, the Solicitor can switch a town will with a mafia one. Now, if Sam was a fellow mafia member, then she could make a legit town looking will, and then be 'confirmed' as town. Already, there will be subtle interplays with the role. The role cannot directly change 2 mafia wills. So the town can use this as information...

Or can they? If the Solicitor uses their ability 3 times, in a special order, then it could end up with 2 Mafia having switched wills. This rule of thumb cannot be taken for granted, yet it always happens if the Solicitor wants wide scale disruption over plays.

And this hasn't even got to the 'forging' side of the role. By using will switches, it is fully possible for a mafia role to make a will in someone else's name, and that be switched, before the mafia pastes their fake will to use for their claim. Yet again, the will isn't destroyed. It will appear if the mafia member dies. But only they do.
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Re: Role Idea: Solicitor (Forger Overhaul)

Postby Mystoc » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:56 pm

sunbird1002 wrote:Mystoc. 3 words. Read the role.
You can use your abilities 3 times

tbh I was reading your wall of texting that wasn't part of your post which i thought was your role the third post and didnt see a number so I thought it was unlimited


This is in there. So, thats 1 argument completely disbanded.

not completely can still can do 6 wills which twice amount before mafia can still swap all wills by n3 easily

if 4-5 people are dead by n3 and you can swap 6 wills there's 9 town so easily all of the alive town have wrong wills now


Secondly, this cannot and will not delete any information of any sort. Your sam and John example works both ways. When Sam dies, John's Will will also be shown. This actually means it CANNOT delete information. Unlike previous Forger, where information is replaced, in this role, information is redistributed instead.

it doesnt delete but delays it alot, if you swap it with a mafia member which you wont kill town will never see it if you keep that mafia alive
if you swap with a town the info is useless usauly and just reveals another townies roles to everyone which helps and hurts mafia at the same time


Also, I foresaw that people will put their names in the top of their wills. Now, let's go back to the Sam and John example. John is dead. Sam's will is shown. Now, Sam's role is outed, which could make her confirmed Town. This means that, though John's will isn't shown, which could have interesting information, Sam is now confirmed town...

Or is she? As you know, the Solicitor can switch a town will with a mafia one. Now, if Sam was a fellow mafia member, then she could make a legit town looking will, and then be 'confirmed' as town. Already, there will be subtle interplays with the role. The role cannot directly change 2 mafia wills. So the town can use this as information...

some roles cant be faked though so it will out some town roles like jailor and transporter, also because of the very reason u just stated town will examine the will and see if it makes sense unlike a town will which cant make mistakes if your mafia teammate has just one fake fact that doesn't line up everyone has seen their will and then they get hanged,

ofc they could put a different name that isn't theirs but the risk of having a wrong name when having to quickly and copy and paste a will when asked for one without time to edit is high but maybe accaptable



Or can they? If the Solicitor uses their ability 3 times, in a special order, then it could end up with 2 Mafia having switched wills. This rule of thumb cannot be taken for granted, yet it always happens if the Solicitor wants wide scale disruption over plays.

yes thats true

And this hasn't even got to the 'forging' side of the role. By using will switches, it is fully possible for a mafia role to make a will in someone else's name, and that be switched before the mafia pastes their fake will to use for their claim. Yet again, the will isn't destroyed. It will appear if the mafia member dies. But only if it does.


town will be able to tell when a will is fake so at best its a very obv fake will that they know was swapped but cant trace to who it was swapped too, so really how it any different then forger just deleting the will town now knows the info cant be trusted, its info but it was swapped with possibly mafia so any swaped info is just ingored if you do the swap with mafia method which is three uses

but now addition they can no longer be sure the same trick isnt be used on them if its a town swap and with town

so really its 6 charges vrses 3 that can alter wills that cant be trusted which is the same has deleted them really


why its too strong my main points

can swap of all of the alive town by end of n3
-also the will altering/swapping in permante unlike forger which is only one night so the will miss information is guaranteed if done there is no factor they target has to die that night so there is no risk really, you dont fear LO or BG or DOC basicly only vet but everyone fears that too strong
swapped wills cant be trusted that the name is correct at top so info is ingored same has deleting the will
-has 6 uses instead of 3 uses

i understand the role better but its too strong there's no counterplay to it, and it takes a lot less skill then forger (even though its a bad role it still took skill to fake a will)
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Re: Role Idea: Solicitor (Forger Overhaul)

Postby sunbird1002 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:46 pm

Good points Mystoc. Here are the beginning of some changes. How do these look:

Buffs, Neutral, Nerfs

The Solicitor's switching with himself limit has been removed

An ability is only 'used' if one of the two people in the pair die


Reduced 3 time ability to 2 time ability

The switches will now remain until the Solicitor dies or is promoted to a Mafioso, not the end of the game

The Solicitor may only have 1 switched pair at a time. If a Solicitor decides to change his pair, without either of them dying
an ability will not be used.

However, there WILL be a notification made to the pair, revealing that the Solicitor attempted a switch.

A Solicitor cannot cause as much chaos as he could have once did. While he can play a whole game without his role being revealed, he does need to balance being revealed and his forgeries not being trusted. He cannot switch as much as he could before, and the one pair at the time thing really limits his power. I think this could make the role more balanced.
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