Concealer (Mafia Deception)

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Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:47 am

Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Attack: None
Defense: None

Role name: Concealer

Role alignment: Mafia Deception

Abilities: At any time, you may edit or delete messages in the chat log, as long as that message is not in the recent chat box.

Attributes:
•Edits/deletions are permanent, starting from the next time a player opens the chat log (so if a Concealer edits/deletes a message while a player is viewing the chat log, the change will only start to take effect next time they open the chat log).
•If a Concealer tries to edit/delete a message while it’s still in the recent chat box, the change will only start to take effect once that message leaves the recent chat box.
•Mafia members will see the chat log as normal, but will be notified that the Concealer changed it (message’s display is shown in notifications).
•If a message is edited, all other identical messages in chat will be edited the same way (to combat spam)
•Mafia members will be able to chat privately during the day. If a Mafia member types “/m [message]” during the day, the message will only be displayed to the Mafia.
•Non-Mafia roles will NOT be notified when a Mafia member does this (unlike whispering).

Special attributes: None

Investigative results:
Investigator - Your target could be an Investigator, Consigliere, Mayor, or Concealer.
Sheriff - Your target is a member of the Mafia!
Witch/Consig - Your target is an expert communicator working for the Mafia. They must be a Concealer.

Goal: Normal Mafia goal

Wins with: Normal Mafia win con

Notifications:
Spoiler: For Mafia (when viewing an edited message):
[message] This message was edited by [Concealer’s name] to: [edited message]
[message] This message was deleted by [Concealer’s name].

For Mafia (when viewing a ‘Mafia Whisper’):
From [sender’s name]: [message]


Thoughts?
Last edited by DestroyerR225 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby ZzFifthElementzZ » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:55 pm

The idea is great.

BUT,
If the Concealer can change messages in the chat-log, could this potentially damage any in-game reports?. For example, a player from the mafia team begins to spam "JOHN PROCTOR IS GODFATHER, I AM MAFIOSO, MARY IS JANITOR AND WILLIAM IS CONCEALER!" .. the concealer most likely is going to edit/delete the message quickly. Once the reports are in, are the moderators going to get the edited/deleted message, or will the original text be there?.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:47 pm

The idea is horrible.

It messes with information such as SRing and information by posts and manipulates with the most important part of the game. The game should be based around that, you shouldn’t make a role which manipulates. Also as in mentioned, messes with the reports system.
I am kindly telling you to fuck off. Thank you.

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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:42 pm

ZzFifthElementzZ wrote:The idea is great.

BUT,
If the Concealer can change messages in the chat-log, could this potentially damage any in-game reports?. For example, a player from the mafia team begins to spam "JOHN PROCTOR IS GODFATHER, I AM MAFIOSO, MARY IS JANITOR AND WILLIAM IS CONCEALER!" .. the concealer most likely is going to edit/delete the message quickly. Once the reports are in, are the moderators going to get the edited/deleted message, or will the original text be there?.

The trial system will see the chat log like the Mafia does, of course
BasicFourLife wrote:The idea is horrible.

It messes with information such as SRing and information by posts and manipulates with the most important part of the game. The game should be based around that, you shouldn’t make a role which manipulates. Also as in mentioned, messes with the reports system.
Why? Why shouldn’t you make a role that manipulates? Maybe that’ll make players pay more attention to what’s going on. Like, why you gotta immediately discard an idea when you see the slightest inconvenience in it?
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby AfroMonkey010 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:35 am

I like this idea, I just think it needs very clear boundaries.

Concealer - Night Ability
Erase one player's messages from chat history permanently.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:46 am

AfroMonkey010 wrote:I like this idea, I just think it needs very clear boundaries.

Concealer - Night Ability
Erase one player's messages from chat history permanently.

If it was only one message per night, it would be trash
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby Villagerlover » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:57 am

I like this a lot.
It touches a subject that I haven't seen touched yet.


I am not all up for the idea of non-mafia members being notified when a mafia members checks /m though....it should just remain completely anonymous and force people to pay attention. Mafia should just have an ability to know what the original messages were versus the fake ones without any interference from town.

Anyways, yeh! I like it a lot.
My only issue I can see is maybe the chat messages could get spammed to make the job of the Concealer harder....like. A sheriff accuses someone of being mafia. So to help get around the concealer, they will try to spam their results many times and give the concealer more work.

But anyways, it's a really great Mafia Deception role, and should be added because it punishes people who don't pay attention to the chatbox. Way to go for thinking outside the box!

/Support
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:14 am

Villagerlover wrote:I like this a lot.
It touches a subject that I haven't seen touched yet.


I am not all up for the idea of non-mafia members being notified when a mafia members checks /m though....it should just remain completely anonymous and force people to pay attention. Mafia should just have an ability to know what the original messages were versus the fake ones without any interference from town. (1)

Anyways, yeh! I like it a lot.
My only issue I can see is maybe the chat messages could get spammed to make the job of the Concealer harder....like. A sheriff accuses someone of being mafia. So to help get around the concealer, they will try to spam their results many times and give the concealer more work. (2)

But anyways, it's a really great Mafia Deception role, and should be added because it punishes people who don't pay attention to the chatbox. Way to go for thinking outside the box! (3)

/Support


1. I think you misunderstood Concealer’s abilities. Concealer has 2 abilities:
A. Edit messages on chat log (non-mafias won’t know it has been changed, Mafias will). Non-mafia will NOT know Mafia is checking the messages (just like normal chat log viewing works; you’re never notified if someone views the chat log!)
B. ‘Mafia Whisper’. When a Mafia types /m before talking on chat, their message will only be shown to the Mafia. Non-mafia will NOT be notified when a Mafia uses ‘Mafia Whisper’.

Both abilities are hidden to everyone except the Mafia, so there’s no way Town will interfere whatsoever.

2. I guess, but Concealer can still do it, and that’s the important thing. Besides, that sheriff is risking being reported for spam...

3. Thanks!
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby KingArmaan » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:15 am

Nice idea, but I think its too OP, maybe you can create a limit to how many messages can they delete and/or how many times they use their ability and/or how long their ability lasts.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:07 am

KingArmaan wrote:Nice idea, but I think its too OP, maybe you can create a limit to how many messages can they delete and/or how many times they use their ability and/or how long their ability lasts.

That would kind of ruin this role’s concept; a constant threat to force people to concentrate in the game. I don’t think it’s OP because it can’t really prevent information from coming out, it only punishes people for not taking the information given in chat seriously.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby sunbird1002 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:26 pm

A pretty decent idea, overall. I havent been on these forums in a while but I love to come back to see an unique idea like this. Now, there is one thing I can see. I have tried to play the game, with my chat log visible the whole game, without closing it.
It was HARD. I couldnt use my day abilities, nor vote. I could access my own will, but no one else's without closing it.

However, if 1 town wants to become the fall guy, then they could combat against it well. For example, roles like Sheriffs or Investigators still have access to their will, chat and night abilities. Playing with it up is a nuisance, but not impossible. Spamming chat is an easier, but less foolproof technique. I am just suggesting a way for people to counter this role. The idea is good, but I am just considering how this idea can be countered.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:32 pm

sunbird1002 wrote:A pretty decent idea, overall. I havent been on these forums in a while but I love to come back to see an unique idea like this. Now, there is one thing I can see. I have tried to play the game, with my chat log visible the whole game, without closing it.
It was HARD. I couldnt use my day abilities, nor vote. I could access my own will, but no one else's without closing it.

However, if 1 town wants to become the fall guy, then they could combat against it well. For example, roles like Sheriffs or Investigators still have access to their will, chat and night abilities. Playing with it up is a nuisance, but not impossible. Spamming chat is an easier, but less foolproof technique. I am just suggesting a way for people to counter this role. The idea is good, but I am just considering how this idea can be countered.

If BMG were to implement this role into the game, they could easily fix that counter. Just make it so at the end of each phase, the chat log is automatically closed if it was still open at the end of the previous phase.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby sunbird1002 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:35 pm

I mean, I was thinking things like that too. Im saying that, in the current game, it has problems such as this. BMG fixing the chat log like this is fine, and not too hard.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby Villagerlover » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:36 pm

sunbird1002 wrote:A pretty decent idea, overall. I havent been on these forums in a while but I love to come back to see an unique idea like this. Now, there is one thing I can see. I have tried to play the game, with my chat log visible the whole game, without closing it.
It was HARD. I couldnt use my day abilities, nor vote. I could access my own will, but no one else's without closing it.

However, if 1 town wants to become the fall guy, then they could combat against it well. For example, roles like Sheriffs or Investigators still have access to their will, chat and night abilities. Playing with it up is a nuisance, but not impossible. Spamming chat is an easier, but less foolproof technique. I am just suggesting a way for people to counter this role. The idea is good, but I am just considering how this idea can be countered.


There's no reason to have a counter against this.
The best counter against this role is to simply pay attention to the game you're playing
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:38 pm

Why do we need a role which manipulates with speaking. No role should EVER do this. Ranked is supposed to be based around scum-reading and good plays, not night actions, RNG and luck.
I am kindly telling you to fuck off. Thank you.

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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:46 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:Why do we need a role which manipulates with speaking. No role should EVER do this. Ranked is supposed to be based around scum-reading and good plays, not night actions, RNG and luck.

This mechanic is not based on night actions, RNG OR luck. It actually is a very strategic deception role, in which you could frame someone else and throw guilt off Mafia very convincingly, if played correctly. This role actually relies on strategy and cunning more than any other role, since it doesn’t just leave up to the player WHO to use the ability on. It also leaves up to the player HOW to use the ability, which can lead to countless creative plays. On the other hand, it also forces the TOWN to be more strategic, forcing them to pay close attention to claims and leading to EVEN MORE skill-based gameplay. Don’t just say that no role should EVER represent a certain concept without clear reasoning, as that is just killing off creativity.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby Villagerlover » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:57 pm

I have a question about this role actually.


When you manipulate the chat log....does it only affect the chat log once the text that's manipulated is outside of the in-game chat box?


What I'm asking is like....Let's say on day 2, someone starts the day off with saying "hey guys", and it remains in the chat box.
If the concealer suddenly decided to change that text to something like "im jailor tp on me" then....would the town suddenly see the change in the text while it remained inside the chat box? Or would it only go into effect once that "hey guys" gets passed outside the chat box?
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:05 am

Yeah, the Concealer may only change a message when it is not on the recent chat box. I believe that is covered in the ability’s description:
DestroyerR225 wrote:Abilities: At any time, you may edit or delete messages in the chat log, as long as that message is not in the recent chat box.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby sunbird1002 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:20 pm

So, time for some constructive criticism, I guess? People are more inclined to spam their message to get their point across, with this role in game. I think to solve this is that, if a Concealer conceals/edits one bit of chat, then all identical pieces of that chat posted by the same person will be deleted too. This will stop identical copying and pasting. Of course, they may simply add punctuation, every time, but it stops the most spammy techniques.

This role, to be used much at all usefully, can have one large effect. They could simply delete huge swathes of chat, meaning that people have no log of it at all. This is extremely destructive for the game, as it means, if mafia just talk a lot, and spam the chat, then nothing will get across. For this, I recommend a small delay between each and every time you edit one line, to stop this technique, or at least, make it harder to edit lots of text at once. Currently, how I see it, this role has a large scope to edit large swathes of text. This change makes editing text the preferred play, not the destruction of it.

The mafia whispering during the day I'm fine with. The mafia may have got more things to say than they get time with during the night, though this is less essential since the chat liberation (from le Spy). Seems to be just an extra ability filed on top of the role's main unique ability, but it doesn't stop it being a decent one.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:06 pm

sunbird1002 wrote:So, time for some constructive criticism, I guess? People are more inclined to spam their message to get their point across, with this role in game. I think to solve this is that, if a Concealer conceals/edits one bit of chat, then all identical pieces of that chat posted by the same person will be deleted too. This will stop identical copying and pasting. Of course, they may simply add punctuation, every time, but it stops the most spammy techniques.(1)

This role, to be used much at all usefully, can have one large effect. They could simply delete huge swathes of chat, meaning that people have no log of it at all. This is extremely destructive for the game, as it means, if mafia just talk a lot, and spam the chat, then nothing will get across. For this, I recommend a small delay between each and every time you edit one line, to stop this technique, or at least, make it harder to edit lots of text at once. Currently, how I see it, this role has a large scope to edit large swathes of text. This change makes editing text the preferred play, not the destruction of it.(2)

The mafia whispering during the day I'm fine with. The mafia may have got more things to say than they get time with during the night, though this is less essential since the chat liberation (from le Spy). Seems to be just an extra ability filed on top of the role's main unique ability, but it doesn't stop it being a decent one.(3)


1. Good thinking, I’ll change it right now.

2. I see what you mean... and yet, if there is a small delay between the editing of messages, the Concealer could have a problem with keeping up with the chat. After all, he needs to edit fast, before people open the log. But now that I think about it, the Concealer’s ability to edit the message while still in the recent chat should help, since although it doesn’t change at the moment he edits (only when it leaves, see the second •) it helps him cope with the messages sent more quickly. ALL of that being said, I won’t write it on the actual OP since it’s only a technical change in the programming of the role.

3. That was EXACTLY my thought process while making this. It seemed to me that it would be a tad UP if included only the editing ability, so I threw another minor ability as well.

Thank you for the constructive criticism, exactly what I was looking for!
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby Schultz128 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:42 pm

Everything about this role besides the Mafia day chat is busted honestly.

Message editing/deleting isn't just punishment for lack of attention, because no one could theoretically keep up with everything being said in the game and be able to remember what everyone said. It's just an unfair mechanic.

It doesn't help that it can perform the ability with no cooldown or cap.

/no support
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:57 pm

Schultz128 wrote:Everything about this role besides the Mafia day chat is busted honestly.

Message editing/deleting isn't just punishment for lack of attention, because no one could theoretically keep up with everything being said in the game and be able to remember what everyone said. It's just an unfair mechanic. (1)

It doesn't help that it can perform the ability with no cooldown or cap. (2)

/no support


1. Strongly disagree. If you know what you’re doing and paying attention to the game, you don’t even NEED to open chat log. If anything, you could actually confirm a Mafia member by paying enough attention, which is definitely not OP.

2. It does have a cool down of a few seconds between each edit/delete (as I agreed with sunbird1002), but I assume you mean an in game stage cool down/limit. I don’t even have to start saying how horribly UP that is. If you want to be actually comment at doing what this role is supposed to do (conceal ignored information) than you can’t have the ability to only change ONE message each period of time, MUCH less a limit.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:37 am

Flake wrote:The issue I have with this role is that it directly removes/alters opinion, and thus removes a player's potential to make skilful plays by way of their opinion. This role effectively causes a trade-off; it encourages tactical and active play whilst simultaneously removing tactical and active play. Whether the trade-off is worth it or not is arguable, but I wouldn't say it is, mainly due to the fast pace of the game; the potential to make tactical plays is very situational as it would only really make a difference in cases of crucial information, of which will usually be memorable anyway. As such, the role effectively thrives on Town not paying attention. While the positive effect of this is obvious (Town is encouraged to pay more attention), there is also an overwhelmingly negative effect as a result of this; the Concealer is overly reliant on the skill/attention levels of other players, and not reliant enough on the skill level of the Concealer them self.

I agree the Concealer being mostly reliant in the lack of attention of townies would be a problem, IF in most games most of town payed close attention to any information that may reveal itself important. But, I think you’re realistic enough to admit that isn’t the case. The Concealer is MEANT to be a punishing role, having much more power when the concentration of his opponents slip up. I don’t think it’s bad design; playing it safe until your opponent makes a small mistake to exploit it is a very valid strategy IMO. After all, it’s unrealistic to think all townies would pay close attention to what a sheriff claim says D2 to verify his veracity in D10. It’s just a complete waste of concentration if a Concealer isn’t in that game. Meanwhile, the Concealer can just change ONE little thing, and that would blow his claim completely. Even something that isn’t information can be changed by the Concealer to something incriminating, like changing a ‘lol’ into ‘I was jailed’ or something along those lines. That, combined with the power this has if town DOES screw up majorly (whether to make a Mafia member’s claim seem completely believable to framing a townie with their own words) and the admittedly small but useful ability of Mafia Chat at day makes this role far from a dead weight in any situation.
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:15 pm

Flake wrote:
DestroyerR225 wrote:The Concealer is MEANT to be a punishing role, having much more power when the concentration of his opponents slip up. I don’t think it’s bad design; playing it safe until your opponent makes a small mistake to exploit it is a very valid strategy IMO.

There's a significant difference between punishing some after knowing they have already slipped up, and punishing someone for slipping up when you don't know if they will or not in the future. This role uses the latter method, not the former.

The only thing that changes is that the opponent may not make the mistake, and in that case the former method is also useless.
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Survivor
 
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Re: Concealer (Mafia Deception)

Postby DestroyerR225 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:28 pm

Flake wrote:
DestroyerR225 wrote:The only thing that changes is that the opponent may not make the mistake, and in that case the former method is also useless.

No idea what I was writing before lol, think I was tired. Both methods are equally awful when a role (like Concealer) is overly reliant on it.

This role places far too much emphasis on the skill level of other players in order for it to be effective; your utility in a game shouldn't be largely decided by factors outside of your own control.

On a punishing role, yes, it should. I was arguing PRECISELY the point you’re making in my previous comment: it’s really almost impossible for the players to pay attention to all of the chat as it is being written, therefore Concealer can be useful in 99.99% of the cases.
Coroner
Informant
Cult Leader
Concealer
Stager

Other roles that can’t be linked because of the URL limit:
Stalker
Enforcer
Lawyer

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DestroyerR225
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Posts: 39
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