Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

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Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Postby Lachek » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:10 pm

Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Attack: Unstoppable Defense: None


Role name: Prisoner

Role alignment: Neutral Evil

Abilities: Each day, you may choose a player, if it's jailor he can't use his ability and dies, if you chosed anyone else you die instead.

Attributes:
•If jailor died from someone else you turn into Jester.

Special attributes: none

Investigative results:
Investigator - Your target could be a Escort, Transporter, or Consort., or Prisoner.
Sheriff - Your target is not suspicious.
Witch/Consig - Your target trys to escape from jail. They must be an Prisoner.

Goal: Kill Jailor.
Sey979 wrote:The problem is that you don't listen to players who play the game. You listen to someone else that don't play the game or barely play. Why did you even ban SkyElo, the #1 in the leaderboard?
Your members of trial system also promote bad playstyles. They bully serious ranked players.
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Re: Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Postby fwogcarf » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:17 pm

Hardcounter to Jailor

/nosupport
Spoiler: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M79vYZu-WIKrW0WQ0pCISBq66DeBfSir5T7RCuy0OWY/edit?usp=sharing
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Re: Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Postby Lachek » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:47 am

It only counter Jailor claim d1 meta.
Sey979 wrote:The problem is that you don't listen to players who play the game. You listen to someone else that don't play the game or barely play. Why did you even ban SkyElo, the #1 in the leaderboard?
Your members of trial system also promote bad playstyles. They bully serious ranked players.
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Re: Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Postby oOYuuArtSuiOo » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:14 am

Lachek wrote:It only counter Jailor claim d1 meta.


No it counters jailor as a whole.
Not only does this role DIRECTLY kill as a jailor, (Noting also the fact that you didn't specify what kind of attack it deals) but it is can also be considered as a hard-counter since if you VISIT jailor, the jailor dies and can't use his ability.

This role is also underpowered that medium as if you visit the wrong player, you die. That is undeniably underpowered and bad.

Sorry but /nosupport
MY OTHER IDEAS!

The Taboo Caster (Coven Evil)
--------------------
Role Alignment Idea: The Equilibrium
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The Witness (Neutral Evil)

Shilster wrote:Isn't this just a better Janitor? It can totally disable people, and yeah, it nerfs lynching. People who can't vote (especially Town members) are useless to their team.

YuuArtSui explained it pretty well.

Aww, thanks :3

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Re: Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Postby Lachek » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:31 am

This role would stop jailor claim d1 and early vfr, also I did specify this attack as unstoppable.

I don't know, but you guys seems like non ranked players if you think this is bad idea or underpowered.

Thanks to this role the whole game experience would be much better.
Sey979 wrote:The problem is that you don't listen to players who play the game. You listen to someone else that don't play the game or barely play. Why did you even ban SkyElo, the #1 in the leaderboard?
Your members of trial system also promote bad playstyles. They bully serious ranked players.
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Re: Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Postby BasicFourLife » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:49 am

Lachek wrote:This role would stop jailor claim d1 and early vfr, also I did specify this attack as unstoppable.

I don't know, but you guys seems like non ranked players if you think this is bad idea or underpowered.

Thanks to this role the whole game experience would be much better.

1. We are not Non Ranked players, when I used to play ToS still I played Ranked only and I know every single ToS mechanic, role and everything from the top of my head and so did Flake and many others.
2. Hard counters are never good ideas because:
- They make it unenjoyable for the player being hard countered and they make the game very unhealthy
- They are stale and boring often enough.
- There are always 1001 better ways to fix the problem, instead of implementing a hard counter.

You should accept criticism. You can't expect your first Role Idea to be good and implemented right away. It has never happened before. You should listen to other people more instead of just saying: "I don't know, but you guys seems like non ranked players if you think this is bad idea or underpowered." and trying to insult us and not accepting anything what others have to say.

I recommend reading the 4/7 stickies on how to make a role and what guidelines should it follow.
RNG is never good for any strategy based game. Please learn the definition of what that means, especially if you're one of the people constantly defending it.

FM / TG: 5 - 10 - 8
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Re: Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Postby Lachek » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:06 am

Flake wrote:Roles shouldn't exist solely to counter a certain role, mainly because it would induce a huge balance swing depending on whether the role exists in the game or not. A role shouldn't be much weaker purely due to the fact that another has rolled through RNG.


It doesn't matter if prisoner was rolled into game or not since the fact that he could be rolled is enough to make town weaker in early game.

Now let's look at other neutral evil roles, Exe and Jester. Their purpose is to waste one day for town and kill one of them (in most cases), sometimes also spread spite among town.
Prisoner's purpose is almost exact the same, the difference is that he kills the most important role and waste its night (Jailor's execution is slightly weaker then lynch in early game).
The biggest difference is that town needs to use lynch/exe/shot to get rid of other neutral evil roles and prisoner can kill himself and achieve nothing and in my opinion that is the biggest problem.

Flake wrote:The fact that this is solely a Jailor/VFR/Reveal D1 counter means that there is a lack of any sort of tactical element, which is especially an issue considering all of the other Neutral Evil roles in the game at current are largely based upon tactical elements. There is no real need to discuss or do anything when playing as this role; you can literally just sit back and do nothing until you think you know the Jailor.

Not to mention the fact that this role would be EXTREMELY boring, since it's literally a one-time ability where you either lose or win the game, and most of the time you'll be doing nothing else other than reading occasionally to find hints regarding who the Jailor might be. Considering the fact that a lot of the community finds roles like Medium and Retributionist boring, this definitely would suffer from the same issue, likely on a larger scale.


I have seen many players playing neutral evil roles with no tactic just waiting for some sort of luck. It's up to you. You can try to find out on chat who Jailor is or just wait.

Flake wrote:Also, you don't explain what happens once the Prisoner successfully kills the jailor. Does the Prisoner just die? Or continue to exist as a kingmaker?


Kingmaker, but without defense.

BasicFourLife wrote:There are always 1001 better ways to fix the problem, instead of implementing a hard counter.


When I will see one of thouse 1001 better ways in game then I will agree that there is no reason for Prisoner to be part of the game.
Sey979 wrote:The problem is that you don't listen to players who play the game. You listen to someone else that don't play the game or barely play. Why did you even ban SkyElo, the #1 in the leaderboard?
Your members of trial system also promote bad playstyles. They bully serious ranked players.
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Re: Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Postby Lachek » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:27 am

Flake wrote:My point is that the other Neutral Evils (Jester, Executioner and Witch) actively encourage tactical play. All of these roles are strongly based upon conversation and deception, and these traits are often required in order to succeed. Whether a given player decides to make tactical plays with these roles or not is irrelevant; the point is that these tactical plays are encouraged and will increase your win chances. The same can't be said for Prisoner; the only real things you need to do are read the chat and read who the Jailor is. No discussion or tactical play is encouraged at all.


If make town lynch someone through discusion is tactical, then why you can't say the same thing about lurk out Jailor?

For example:

As Prisoner you can ask random people for their roles and/or convince town to put someone on stand, this way you can find Jailor or Investigator who has Jailor in his will.

Claim tp, you have chance that Jailor will whisper to you and ask for protection.

Claim Jailor on stand, through crowd reactions you can exclude some players from being Jailor, then use your day action to be faster than real one.
Sey979 wrote:The problem is that you don't listen to players who play the game. You listen to someone else that don't play the game or barely play. Why did you even ban SkyElo, the #1 in the leaderboard?
Your members of trial system also promote bad playstyles. They bully serious ranked players.
Lachek
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Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:29 am

Re: Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Postby BasicFourLife » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:03 am

This is not a Neutral Evil role because it does not have the Neutral Evil goal: Survive to see the Town lose.

This can potentially help Town after kingmaking.
RNG is never good for any strategy based game. Please learn the definition of what that means, especially if you're one of the people constantly defending it.

FM / TG: 5 - 10 - 8
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Re: Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Postby fwogcarf » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:10 am

When there's a goal like "Kill the Jailor", you know that role's going to be terrible
Spoiler: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M79vYZu-WIKrW0WQ0pCISBq66DeBfSir5T7RCuy0OWY/edit?usp=sharing
We are creators of our own future


We are supporters of forces against despair


We defend against the evils of the world


We are guardians, we are strong
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Re: Prisoner (Neutral Evil)

Postby Seththeking » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:16 am

What happen to make you think of this role?
I'm curious.

Did the Jailor execute you and you wish that they had a way to not being able to or something?

Whatever the case may be, this is still a Jailor Hard Counter.

Maybe one day their will be a role that can stop Jailor, but it will never be a Jailor Hard Counter
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