Enforcer (Mafia Killing)

[DestroyerR225]

Enforcer (Mafia Killing)

Attack: Powerful
Defense: None

Role name: Enforcer

Role alignment: Mafia Killing

Abilities: Each night, choose a fellow Mafia member to back up.

Attributes:
•If the Mafia member you chose dies or is prevented from successfully using their ability (e.g. Mafioso hitting an SK, Consort hitting a Transporter, rb’ed, etc.), you will attack their target.
• If there are no kill-capable Mafia roles left you will become a Mafioso.


Special attributes: None

Investigative results:
Investigator - Your target could be a Vigilante, Veteran, Mafioso, or Enforcer.
Sheriff - Your target is a member of the Mafia!
Witch/Consig - Your target serves as a backup killer, they must be an Enforcer.

Goal: Normal Mafia goal

Wins with: Normal Mafia Win con

Notifications:
Spoiler: For Enforcer:
You have decided to back up [name] tonight.
You have instead decided to back up [name] tonight.
Your fellow Mafia member failed to use their ability, so you attacked their target!
Your fellow Mafia member died, so you attacked their target!

For Mafia (when backed up in jail):
The Enforcer tried to back you up but you were in jail!

Thoughts?

[triangularbrick]

1. If you hit an immune whats the point?
2. If you dont hit an immune the original will kill them
3. If the mafioso is rbed GF attacks any way

So really useless

Edit: also mafia dont need another kpn.

[DestroyerR225]

1. There are levels of immunity, you know. This could kill a lot of roles mafioso can’t.
2. Excuse me, are you aware that there are Mafia roles that don’t kill? And even for MK, see point 1.
3. What if the mafioso is dead? What if the Enforcer chooses to back up another person? What if both the GF and Mafioso are RB’d?
4. This is only an extra KPN when either a Mafia can’t use their ability, or when one dies. So this is more of a comeback role for Mafia.

Please, do try to understand the role BEFORE the feedback. Thank you.

[triangularbrick]

1. There are levels of immunity, you know. This could kill a lot of roles mafioso can’t.
2. Excuse me, are you aware that there are Mafia roles that don’t kill? And even for MK, see point 1.
3. What if the mafioso is dead? What if the Enforcer chooses to back up another person? What if both the GF and Mafioso are RB’d?
4. This is only an extra KPN when either a Mafia can’t use their ability, or when one dies. So this is more of a comeback role for Mafia.

Please, do try to understand the role BEFORE the feedback. Thank you.

Are you having a laugh mate?
A conditional KPN is still not on. Imagine getting kills half the nights you would normally youre still getting 3 kills every 2 nights say which is still not cool. Theres a reason mafia only kills once night its for balance. Also on re-read ive just seen that it kills NKs when it can pierce basic defense (SK and Arso - already have it tough enough without this OP instant kill at night)

Its so overpowered it hurts
Also if youre going to disregard my criticism because i disagree dont post to the role ideas board? K cool .

[DestroyerR225]

You can’t give evidence from the game that they try to restrict Mafia to one KPN for balance, since Ambusher is a thing. And you can’t say ‘oh this works very well against SK, so it’s OP’, because then I could just say ‘oh this works very poorly against veteran, so it’s UP’. Balancing roles based on what other specific roles will deal with it is just a bad idea IMO. Also, i DIDN’T disregard your criticism, seen as I have offered answers to all of your arguments. The reason why I wrote it in a sarcastic manner is because your criticism seems to be built around a wrong concept (the one that this only backs up Mafioso) and is kind of self contradictory (your first post’s conclusion was that this is useless, and your second’s is that this is ‘so overpowered it hurts’). So yeah, I think you earned a bit of a snark there.

[DestroyerR225]

Again, Ambusher is now a thing, so you can’t say it is...

[DestroyerR225]

But the claim that Mafia should always only have one KPN in all cases is your opinion, which I must take the liberty to disagree. I believe an overall concept (like extra KPN for Mafia) that is impossible to balance and implement is very rare. Plus, this is EVEN MORE situational than Ambusher, since you have not only to have one of your Mafia fail to do their job (or die), you also have to pick the Mafia to which this happened. Again, this is more of a backup KPN than a possibly regular KPN, which makes this all the more balanced. I have been considering to remove the attack if your Mafia dies though, to make it even more situational. If enough people want, I’ll do it.

[DestroyerR225]

Now hold on a second: Mafia does NOT decide as a team who to kill. Godfather decides alone, but the other Mafias can talk with him and debate on who to kill. I don’t see a difference on how this role would work collaboration-wise. And again, the Enforcer’s kill must ALWAYS come with a loss to the Mafia, be it a waste of an ability or a dead member. In fact, the term KPN doesn’t really make sense in this role. This role isn’t a consistent killer, and it doesn’t purport to be, either. But the fact that this doesn’t kill consistently doesn’t make it an inconsistent role. As the ability suggests, it’s a backup, in case things go wrong, so the night that an Enforcer kills will never be a perfect night for Mafia. Also, what do you mean when you say it doesn’t make sense lore-wise?

[triangularbrick]

Now hold on a second: Mafia does NOT decide as a team who to kill. Godfather decides alone, but the other Mafias can talk with him and debate on who to kill. I don’t see a difference on how this role would work collaboration-wise. And again, the Enforcer’s kill must ALWAYS come with a loss to the Mafia, be it a waste of an ability or a dead member. In fact, the term KPN doesn’t really make sense in this role. This role isn’t a consistent killer, and it doesn’t purport to be, either. But the fact that this doesn’t kill consistently doesn’t make it an inconsistent role. As the ability suggests, it’s a backup, in case things go wrong, so the night that an Enforcer kills will never be a perfect night for Mafia. Also, what do you mean when you say it doesn’t make sense lore-wise?

Yes, that's what I meant; Mafia can freely discuss and choose who will die. It's harder to freely decide who will die in the case of Enforcer because that requires the Mafia member the Enforcer is targeting to change their target in order to satisfy who might die as a result of the Enforcer's ability, which said Mafia member may not want to do because of other important factors.

My main argument is that this role deviates from what many deem to be the classical interpretation of Mafia, a consistent 1 KPN team. I just don't personally believe adding additional inconsistent killing power is necessary at all, because Mafia already has consistent killing power. This is what I mean when I say it doesn't make sense "lore-wise", if that's the right term for it.

This is what I was saying as well. It is so unpredictable and downright "unstable" it makes it really OP or useless.

[DestroyerR225]

Yes, that's what I meant; Mafia can freely discuss and choose who will die. It's harder to freely decide who will die in the case of Enforcer because that requires the Mafia member the Enforcer is targeting to change their target in order to satisfy who might die as a result of the Enforcer's ability, which said Mafia member may not want to do because of other factors. The fact that it is inconsistent killing power in itself impedes on discussion, as there is far more incentive to discuss when you have consistent killing power.

My main argument is that this role deviates from what many deem to be the classical interpretation of Mafia, a consistent 1 KPN team. I just don't personally believe adding additional inconsistent killing power is necessary at all, because Mafia already has consistent killing power. This is what I mean when I say it doesn't make sense "lore-wise", if that's the right term for it.

But the Mafia could just ask the enforcer to back them up on their original target. You’re talking like the one who receives this role is always a stubborn idiot, which is just not true. Sure, there may be times when the Enforcer is dumb and doesn’t listen to the Mafia, but that’s not always the case. And again, just because Mafia started as a classical 1 KPN, and 1KPN only does not mean that is the only way Mafia can be balanced. And the inconsistent killing power only takes place when Mafia DOES need it; when a vigilante shoots a Mafia, when a Blackmailer is roleblocked and thus suspected the next day (since there’s no one blackmailed), when a Consort wastes a night on a transporter... you shouldn’t view this as another potential KPN for Mafia, but as a backup mechanic only.

[BasicFourLife]

All who know balance purely, can back up Flake's claim that Mafia should have 1 KPN, and "Mafia Killing" alignment shouldn't exist. Also like someone mentioned, conditional 2 KPN breaks the game balance. Also you can't bring up Ambusher as an exception because it was not implemented by the Balancer nor TG, it was just something what the Devs randomly thought was a good idea to implement in the game.

[Soulshade55r]

Eh really kpn is difficult to balance in the first place if we truly wanted a balanced Tos all roles would be Citizen and Goon.

Tos is Never going to be balanced, especially with Nks Town Killers, ect.
But it wouldn't be fun stripping it down to crap, I agree Ambusher shouldn't ever be in ranked but considering its outside of ranked and its a coven role its fine.

At the end of the day your giving up fun for balancing a lot of the time.


Anyway that being said this role is very pointless, situational, also I really don't think we need a role that kills Nks. It's like Strongman in a way if I had to compere it to a role, I just think it's best we stick to Deception and support roles right now, until Tatical Mafia comes along in year 20XX

[BasicFourLife]

Eh really kpn is difficult to balance in the first place if we truly wanted a balanced Tos all roles would be Citizen and Goon.

Tos is Never going to be balanced, especially with Nks Town Killers, ect.
But it wouldn't be fun stripping it down to crap, I agree Ambusher shouldn't ever be in ranked but considering its outside of ranked and its a coven role its fine.

At the end of the day your giving up fun for balancing a lot of the time.


Anyway that being said this role is very pointless, situational, also I really don't think we need a role that kills Nks. It's like Strongman in a way if I had to compere it to a role, I just think it's best we stick to Deception and support roles right now, until Tatical Mafia comes along in year 20XX

Fun comes from certain balance.

[DestroyerR225]

Eh really kpn is difficult to balance in the first place if we truly wanted a balanced Tos all roles would be Citizen and Goon.

Tos is Never going to be balanced, especially with Nks Town Killers, ect.
But it wouldn't be fun stripping it down to crap, I agree Ambusher shouldn't ever be in ranked but considering its outside of ranked and its a coven role its fine.

At the end of the day your giving up fun for balancing a lot of the time.


Anyway that being said this role is very pointless, situational, also I really don't think we need a role that kills Nks. It's like Strongman in a way if I had to compere it to a role, I just think it's best we stick to Deception and support roles right now, until Tatical Mafia comes along in year 20XX

Ok, the conditions for this are not THAT situational. They are rare, but they could happen, and the reward is reasonably high IMO

[Soulshade55r]

Eh really kpn is difficult to balance in the first place if we truly wanted a balanced Tos all roles would be Citizen and Goon.

Tos is Never going to be balanced, especially with Nks Town Killers, ect.
But it wouldn't be fun stripping it down to crap, I agree Ambusher shouldn't ever be in ranked but considering its outside of ranked and its a coven role its fine.

At the end of the day your giving up fun for balancing a lot of the time.


Anyway that being said this role is very pointless, situational, also I really don't think we need a role that kills Nks. It's like Strongman in a way if I had to compere it to a role, I just think it's best we stick to Deception and support roles right now, until Tatical Mafia comes along in year 20XX

Fun comes from certain balance.

Agreed but I'm just saying roles like Ambusher, Vampire and even Pirate are fun to play but they aren't even close to balanced.

I'm just saying we shouldn't say a role is terrible just because it doesn't have balance, that being said it would be nice if they made a way of keeping balance on modes like ranked and other modes that are more competitive

[DestroyerR225]

All who know balance purely, can back up Flake's claim that Mafia should have 1 KPN, and "Mafia Killing" alignment shouldn't exist. Also like someone mentioned, conditional 2 KPN breaks the game balance. Also you can't bring up Ambusher as an exception because it was not implemented by the Balancer nor TG, it was just something what the Devs randomly thought was a good idea to implement in the game.

I’m not backing up my whole role with the fact Ambusher is in the game. I only used it to counter Flake’s claim that Mafia will always have 1 KPN, so much that I discarded that argument as soon as Flake clarified what he meant. And why, WHY do you think Mafia can ONLY 1 KPN to have a chance at being balanced? That’s thinking a little too inside the box IMO...

[Blackwolfe99]

All who know balance purely, can back up Flake's claim that Mafia should have 1 KPN, and "Mafia Killing" alignment shouldn't exist. Also like someone mentioned, conditional 2 KPN breaks the game balance. Also you can't bring up Ambusher as an exception because it was not implemented by the Balancer nor TG, it was just something what the Devs randomly thought was a good idea to implement in the game.

I’m not backing up my whole role with the fact Ambusher is in the game. I only used it to counter Flake’s claim that Mafia will always have 1 KPN, so much that I discarded that argument as soon as Flake clarified what he meant. And why, WHY do you think Mafia can ONLY 1 KPN to have a chance at being balanced? That’s thinking a little too inside the box IMO...

A higher KPN would allow the Mafia to kill off the Town too quickly to give Town a chance.
That's one reason why Coven is unbalanced, they start off with a low KPN then gain a very strong KPN after Night 3. In fact after n3, they usually kill off the Town within a couple of nights, especially when NKs are in play.

[triangularbrick]

Just going to leave this here from the "Role ideas not to make" stickied thread.

Important details highlighted in red.

NOTE: This thread will be the guide on the roles that should not be made if you are trying to build a balanced role. In the Role Ideas forum, you are not required to make your role balanced, but if you wish to fully balance your role, we advise you to stay clear of the following concepts and roles.

Concepts Not To Make:
Role Dependency/Hardcounters - Roles that depend on, exist to counter or copy abilities from roles being generated in the game
Independent Mafia Killing - Roles that increase the Mafia’s killing ability by duplication or independent killing
Conversion Role - Roles that can change the win condition of another role
Overly Complex Role - Roles that are hard to implement, understand and operate
RNG Role - Roles that have abilities based on random number generation
Negative Utility - Roles that negatively impact their own alignment
Self-Confirming Town - Roles that can easily confirm themselves
Night Immune Town - Town roles that have permanent night immunity
Limited Neutral Killing - Neutral Killing roles that have limitations to how and who they can kill
Chaos Role - Any role that is built to bring chaos to the game
Non-Evil Neutral Evil - Any Neutral Evil that can win with Town
Omniscient Town Killing - Any Town Killing that has no charge limit to its abilities
Easily Confirmable Roles - Any role that can be easily confirmed
Vote/Chat Blocker - Any role that can block others from voting or chat
New Alignment - Any alignment made solely for one role

Roles Not To Make:
Firefighter - A role built to put out the douses of the Arsonist
Copycat - Any role that uses other role's night abilities
Postmortem Lookout - Any role that can see who visited a dead player
Survivor Rehash - Any Neutral Benign role whose only goal is to survive to the end of the game
Buddy - Any role that requires another specific person to survive to win
Roleswapper - Any role that swaps/changes others' roles
Visitor - Any role that has a win condition involving visiting other players
Silver Bullet - A role that can shoot an evil without finding the evil
Old Spy - Any role that can read the mafia chat
Necromancer - An evil Retributionist that can revive a dead teammate

[DestroyerR225]

All who know balance purely, can back up Flake's claim that Mafia should have 1 KPN, and "Mafia Killing" alignment shouldn't exist. Also like someone mentioned, conditional 2 KPN breaks the game balance. Also you can't bring up Ambusher as an exception because it was not implemented by the Balancer nor TG, it was just something what the Devs randomly thought was a good idea to implement in the game.

I’m not backing up my whole role with the fact Ambusher is in the game. I only used it to counter Flake’s claim that Mafia will always have 1 KPN, so much that I discarded that argument as soon as Flake clarified what he meant. And why, WHY do you think Mafia can ONLY 1 KPN to have a chance at being balanced? That’s thinking a little too inside the box IMO...

A higher KPN would allow the Mafia to kill off the Town too quickly to give Town a chance.
That's one reason why Coven is unbalanced, they start off with a low KPN then gain a very strong KPN after Night 3. In fact after n3, they usually kill off the Town within a couple of nights, especially when NKs are in play.

Again, this is a very conditional KPN, there is no worries the Mafia will kill too fast, since it isn’t consistent KPN

Just going to leave this here from the "Role ideas not to make" stickied thread.

Important details highlighted in red.

NOTE: This thread will be the guide on the roles that should not be made if you are trying to build a balanced role. In the Role Ideas forum, you are not required to make your role balanced, but if you wish to fully balance your role, we advise you to stay clear of the following concepts and roles.

Concepts Not To Make:
Role Dependency/Hardcounters - Roles that depend on, exist to counter or copy abilities from roles being generated in the game
Independent Mafia Killing - Roles that increase the Mafia’s killing ability by duplication or independent killing
Conversion Role - Roles that can change the win condition of another role
Overly Complex Role - Roles that are hard to implement, understand and operate
RNG Role - Roles that have abilities based on random number generation
Negative Utility - Roles that negatively impact their own alignment
Self-Confirming Town - Roles that can easily confirm themselves
Night Immune Town - Town roles that have permanent night immunity
Limited Neutral Killing - Neutral Killing roles that have limitations to how and who they can kill
Chaos Role - Any role that is built to bring chaos to the game
Non-Evil Neutral Evil - Any Neutral Evil that can win with Town
Omniscient Town Killing - Any Town Killing that has no charge limit to its abilities
Easily Confirmable Roles - Any role that can be easily confirmed
Vote/Chat Blocker - Any role that can block others from voting or chat
New Alignment - Any alignment made solely for one role

Roles Not To Make:
Firefighter - A role built to put out the douses of the Arsonist
Copycat - Any role that uses other role's night abilities
Postmortem Lookout - Any role that can see who visited a dead player
Survivor Rehash - Any Neutral Benign role whose only goal is to survive to the end of the game
Buddy - Any role that requires another specific person to survive to win
Roleswapper - Any role that swaps/changes others' roles
Visitor - Any role that has a win condition involving visiting other players
Silver Bullet - A role that can shoot an evil without finding the evil
Old Spy - Any role that can read the mafia chat
Necromancer - An evil Retributionist that can revive a dead teammate

I already explained why I think this is balanced enough despite that claim. This isn’t going to change my mind, because I’ve already disagreed with the argument why.

[DestroyerR225]

Bump