DestroyerR225 wrote:1. There are levels of immunity, you know. This could kill a lot of roles mafioso can’t.
2. Excuse me, are you aware that there are Mafia roles that don’t kill? And even for MK, see point 1.
3. What if the mafioso is dead? What if the Enforcer chooses to back up another person? What if both the GF and Mafioso are RB’d?
4. This is only an extra KPN when either a Mafia can’t use their ability, or when one dies. So this is more of a comeback role for Mafia.
Please, do try to understand the role BEFORE the feedback. Thank you.
Flake wrote:DestroyerR225 wrote:Now hold on a second: Mafia does NOT decide as a team who to kill. Godfather decides alone, but the other Mafias can talk with him and debate on who to kill. I don’t see a difference on how this role would work collaboration-wise. And again, the Enforcer’s kill must ALWAYS come with a loss to the Mafia, be it a waste of an ability or a dead member. In fact, the term KPN doesn’t really make sense in this role. This role isn’t a consistent killer, and it doesn’t purport to be, either. But the fact that this doesn’t kill consistently doesn’t make it an inconsistent role. As the ability suggests, it’s a backup, in case things go wrong, so the night that an Enforcer kills will never be a perfect night for Mafia. Also, what do you mean when you say it doesn’t make sense lore-wise?
Yes, that's what I meant; Mafia can freely discuss and choose who will die. It's harder to freely decide who will die in the case of Enforcer because that requires the Mafia member the Enforcer is targeting to change their target in order to satisfy who might die as a result of the Enforcer's ability, which said Mafia member may not want to do because of other important factors.
My main argument is that this role deviates from what many deem to be the classical interpretation of Mafia, a consistent 1 KPN team. I just don't personally believe adding additional inconsistent killing power is necessary at all, because Mafia already has consistent killing power. This is what I mean when I say it doesn't make sense "lore-wise", if that's the right term for it.
Flake wrote:Yes, that's what I meant; Mafia can freely discuss and choose who will die. It's harder to freely decide who will die in the case of Enforcer because that requires the Mafia member the Enforcer is targeting to change their target in order to satisfy who might die as a result of the Enforcer's ability, which said Mafia member may not want to do because of other factors. The fact that it is inconsistent killing power in itself impedes on discussion, as there is far more incentive to discuss when you have consistent killing power.
My main argument is that this role deviates from what many deem to be the classical interpretation of Mafia, a consistent 1 KPN team. I just don't personally believe adding additional inconsistent killing power is necessary at all, because Mafia already has consistent killing power. This is what I mean when I say it doesn't make sense "lore-wise", if that's the right term for it.
Soulshade55r wrote:Eh really kpn is difficult to balance in the first place if we truly wanted a balanced Tos all roles would be Citizen and Goon.
Tos is Never going to be balanced, especially with Nks Town Killers, ect.
But it wouldn't be fun stripping it down to crap, I agree Ambusher shouldn't ever be in ranked but considering its outside of ranked and its a coven role its fine.
At the end of the day your giving up fun for balancing a lot of the time.
Anyway that being said this role is very pointless, situational, also I really don't think we need a role that kills Nks. It's like Strongman in a way if I had to compere it to a role, I just think it's best we stick to Deception and support roles right now, until Tatical Mafia comes along in year 20XX
Ok, the conditions for this are not THAT situational. They are rare, but they could happen, and the reward is reasonably high IMOSoulshade55r wrote:Eh really kpn is difficult to balance in the first place if we truly wanted a balanced Tos all roles would be Citizen and Goon.
Tos is Never going to be balanced, especially with Nks Town Killers, ect.
But it wouldn't be fun stripping it down to crap, I agree Ambusher shouldn't ever be in ranked but considering its outside of ranked and its a coven role its fine.
At the end of the day your giving up fun for balancing a lot of the time.
Anyway that being said this role is very pointless, situational, also I really don't think we need a role that kills Nks. It's like Strongman in a way if I had to compere it to a role, I just think it's best we stick to Deception and support roles right now, until Tatical Mafia comes along in year 20XX
BasicFourLife wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:Eh really kpn is difficult to balance in the first place if we truly wanted a balanced Tos all roles would be Citizen and Goon.
Tos is Never going to be balanced, especially with Nks Town Killers, ect.
But it wouldn't be fun stripping it down to crap, I agree Ambusher shouldn't ever be in ranked but considering its outside of ranked and its a coven role its fine.
At the end of the day your giving up fun for balancing a lot of the time.
Anyway that being said this role is very pointless, situational, also I really don't think we need a role that kills Nks. It's like Strongman in a way if I had to compere it to a role, I just think it's best we stick to Deception and support roles right now, until Tatical Mafia comes along in year 20XX
Fun comes from certain balance.
BasicFourLife wrote:All who know balance purely, can back up Flake's claim that Mafia should have 1 KPN, and "Mafia Killing" alignment shouldn't exist. Also like someone mentioned, conditional 2 KPN breaks the game balance. Also you can't bring up Ambusher as an exception because it was not implemented by the Balancer nor TG, it was just something what the Devs randomly thought was a good idea to implement in the game.
DestroyerR225 wrote:BasicFourLife wrote:All who know balance purely, can back up Flake's claim that Mafia should have 1 KPN, and "Mafia Killing" alignment shouldn't exist. Also like someone mentioned, conditional 2 KPN breaks the game balance. Also you can't bring up Ambusher as an exception because it was not implemented by the Balancer nor TG, it was just something what the Devs randomly thought was a good idea to implement in the game.
I’m not backing up my whole role with the fact Ambusher is in the game. I only used it to counter Flake’s claim that Mafia will always have 1 KPN, so much that I discarded that argument as soon as Flake clarified what he meant. And why, WHY do you think Mafia can ONLY 1 KPN to have a chance at being balanced? That’s thinking a little too inside the box IMO...
EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW
/support
Gooose26 wrote:NOTE: This thread will be the guide on the roles that should not be made if you are trying to build a balanced role. In the Role Ideas forum, you are not required to make your role balanced, but if you wish to fully balance your role, we advise you to stay clear of the following concepts and roles.
Concepts Not To Make:
Role Dependency/Hardcounters - Roles that depend on, exist to counter or copy abilities from roles being generated in the game
Independent Mafia Killing - Roles that increase the Mafia’s killing ability by duplication or independent killing
Conversion Role - Roles that can change the win condition of another role
Overly Complex Role - Roles that are hard to implement, understand and operate
RNG Role - Roles that have abilities based on random number generation
Negative Utility - Roles that negatively impact their own alignment
Self-Confirming Town - Roles that can easily confirm themselves
Night Immune Town - Town roles that have permanent night immunity
Limited Neutral Killing - Neutral Killing roles that have limitations to how and who they can kill
Chaos Role - Any role that is built to bring chaos to the game
Non-Evil Neutral Evil - Any Neutral Evil that can win with Town
Omniscient Town Killing - Any Town Killing that has no charge limit to its abilities
Easily Confirmable Roles - Any role that can be easily confirmed
Vote/Chat Blocker - Any role that can block others from voting or chat
New Alignment - Any alignment made solely for one role
Roles Not To Make:
Firefighter - A role built to put out the douses of the Arsonist
Copycat - Any role that uses other role's night abilities
Postmortem Lookout - Any role that can see who visited a dead player
Survivor Rehash - Any Neutral Benign role whose only goal is to survive to the end of the game
Buddy - Any role that requires another specific person to survive to win
Roleswapper - Any role that swaps/changes others' roles
Visitor - Any role that has a win condition involving visiting other players
Silver Bullet - A role that can shoot an evil without finding the evil
Old Spy - Any role that can read the mafia chat
Necromancer - An evil Retributionist that can revive a dead teammate
Blackwolfe99 wrote:DestroyerR225 wrote:BasicFourLife wrote:All who know balance purely, can back up Flake's claim that Mafia should have 1 KPN, and "Mafia Killing" alignment shouldn't exist. Also like someone mentioned, conditional 2 KPN breaks the game balance. Also you can't bring up Ambusher as an exception because it was not implemented by the Balancer nor TG, it was just something what the Devs randomly thought was a good idea to implement in the game.
I’m not backing up my whole role with the fact Ambusher is in the game. I only used it to counter Flake’s claim that Mafia will always have 1 KPN, so much that I discarded that argument as soon as Flake clarified what he meant. And why, WHY do you think Mafia can ONLY 1 KPN to have a chance at being balanced? That’s thinking a little too inside the box IMO...
A higher KPN would allow the Mafia to kill off the Town too quickly to give Town a chance.
That's one reason why Coven is unbalanced, they start off with a low KPN then gain a very strong KPN after Night 3. In fact after n3, they usually kill off the Town within a couple of nights, especially when NKs are in play.
triangularbrick wrote:Just going to leave this here from the "Role ideas not to make" stickied thread.
Important details highlighted in red.Gooose26 wrote:NOTE: This thread will be the guide on the roles that should not be made if you are trying to build a balanced role. In the Role Ideas forum, you are not required to make your role balanced, but if you wish to fully balance your role, we advise you to stay clear of the following concepts and roles.
Concepts Not To Make:
Role Dependency/Hardcounters - Roles that depend on, exist to counter or copy abilities from roles being generated in the game
Independent Mafia Killing - Roles that increase the Mafia’s killing ability by duplication or independent killing
Conversion Role - Roles that can change the win condition of another role
Overly Complex Role - Roles that are hard to implement, understand and operate
RNG Role - Roles that have abilities based on random number generation
Negative Utility - Roles that negatively impact their own alignment
Self-Confirming Town - Roles that can easily confirm themselves
Night Immune Town - Town roles that have permanent night immunity
Limited Neutral Killing - Neutral Killing roles that have limitations to how and who they can kill
Chaos Role - Any role that is built to bring chaos to the game
Non-Evil Neutral Evil - Any Neutral Evil that can win with Town
Omniscient Town Killing - Any Town Killing that has no charge limit to its abilities
Easily Confirmable Roles - Any role that can be easily confirmed
Vote/Chat Blocker - Any role that can block others from voting or chat
New Alignment - Any alignment made solely for one role
Roles Not To Make:
Firefighter - A role built to put out the douses of the Arsonist
Copycat - Any role that uses other role's night abilities
Postmortem Lookout - Any role that can see who visited a dead player
Survivor Rehash - Any Neutral Benign role whose only goal is to survive to the end of the game
Buddy - Any role that requires another specific person to survive to win
Roleswapper - Any role that swaps/changes others' roles
Visitor - Any role that has a win condition involving visiting other players
Silver Bullet - A role that can shoot an evil without finding the evil
Old Spy - Any role that can read the mafia chat
Necromancer - An evil Retributionist that can revive a dead teammate
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