Double - Neutral Benign

[Shilster]

After Icibalus' argument, I completely switched my opinion. I now think that the Double is a much better role. I really don't think that the Double belongs in Neutral Benign, though, because it has the ability to kill (even if only once).

It’s not a kill, it swaps roles and suicides

Removing a player from the game =/= Killing

Double's kill is an actual kill, so you're wrong, but he can only do it once, so it's not a NK.

[BS4125]

After Icibalus' argument, I completely switched my opinion. I now think that the Double is a much better role. I really don't think that the Double belongs in Neutral Benign, though, because it has the ability to kill (even if only once).

It’s not a kill, it swaps roles and suicides

Removing a player from the game =/= Killing

Double's kill is an actual kill, so you're wrong, but he can only do it once, so it's not a NK.

No it’s not, the Double suicides but in the process swaps players with it’s target
The player is displaced from the game, but not the role, therefore doesn’t classify as a kill

[lemonader666]

After Icibalus' argument, I completely switched my opinion. I now think that the Double is a much better role. I really don't think that the Double belongs in Neutral Benign, though, because it has the ability to kill (even if only once).

It’s not a kill, it swaps roles and suicides

Removing a player from the game =/= Killing

Double's kill is an actual kill, so you're wrong, but he can only do it once, so it's not a NK.

No it’s not, the Double suicides but in the process swaps players with it’s target
The player is displaced from the game, but not the role, therefore doesn’t classify as a kill

It does kill, since cleaning only works when someone dies. But, it's not a harmful kill/a bad thing.

[Schultz128]

So what I'm hearing is this should be voted.

[Schultz128]

What’s the difference between this and an amnesiac with no feedback that can’t pick until N3?

One more time in English, por favor.

[BasicFourLife]

Btw Double has a single flawed mechanic which needs changing. If the Double copies a role which HAS to survive until the end of game or do something that cannot be won while dead no matter what (ex: Witch, Jester, Exe, Surv etc), it wins as long as the Double wins.

@Schultz ^

[BasicFourLife]

That’s not how this works. Survivor doesn’t win if other survivors win and it loses. If the double targets you, you should have done something to prevent that. If you failed, well, sucks to suck.

Double can target people for no reason. That’s why this needs to exist.

[Schultz128]

NEs should win after death by default regardless.

Only time you'll have two NBs show up is in a custom match or All Any, in both situations balance is not something to really care about.

[Mystoc]

well i give up cause i would be repeating myself

no other NB shares the same problem has this role, its the only NB the kills the side it joins , which means the other side who wants you dead has to do one less kill to you

also i'm just saying but the point of LyLo is literally exactly the same as the amount of kills needed to win the game -1
What determines LyLo is the amount of votes in the game. Therefore, Double has no affect on that.
why ToS dosen't end the game as soon as Mafia have parity with the town we may never know

no voting power is only what matters for town is only what they need to win mafia wins by killing enough people so they have majority one more death happening means that time, when mafia have majority, will happen day sooner and not being voteable its a huge difference, this role is hugely evil sided and hurts town way more then it does mafia, it makes mafia win a day sooner if it joins town and denies town info cause it cleans the role, on the other hand there no negatives for evils when it joins them

and why wouldnt the double vote with side hes going to join and help them win before he officaliy joins them and kills the person you act like before the double converts to a side he cant vote which isnt true

The other thing you forget Myst, is that because of the way Cleaning works, the Double has assess to the wills of the Jailor/Investigator/Transporter and can put them into their own will, which completely mitigates your point about wills being negative to the town.
obviously wills are dumb but you know :shrug:

where does it say the double has access to the cleaned will i read the whole role, and wills are not dumb every town of Salem like game has them for a reason dude they are needed ToS isnt a oddity here

but yea ALOT people seem to like this role, i think its better then the current anmesiac but has new problems the anme doesnt, i know when to give up here im bow out this one

[Icibalus]

the reason why wills are dumb is because they encourage Town to sit on information and to not bother trying to avoid being killed as investigatives
but that's a topic for another time.

What's important right now is I've literally mathematically shown that you're wrong about the Double, and there is zero reason for me to reiterate my argument when i've already done it.
You're wrong m8.

[BasicFourLife]

NEs should win after death by default regardless.

Only time you'll have two NBs show up is in a custom match or All Any, in both situations balance is not something to really care about.

That would make them the easiest role to win in the whole Ranked. They’d have Mafia+NK Winrate combined then. My suggestion would be to make them only win past-death if they survive X amount of nights, the X can be at least 3 or 4 nights.

Also just because balance does not exist in other modes doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to fix an unfair and an unbalanced feature. Remember we are trying to get it added in Town of Salem, TOWN OF SALEM!

[Mystoc]

What's important right now is I've literally mathematically shown that you're wrong about the Double, and there is zero reason for me to reiterate my argument when i've already done it.
You're wrong m8.

no you have mathematically failed to understand my logic or just chosen to ignore it so ive choosen to leave it be if you want i can pm you about it but doing so for the thread itself would be unproductive since i doubt even if you did understand it you would change your mind at this point

[BasicFourLife]

What's important right now is I've literally mathematically shown that you're wrong about the Double, and there is zero reason for me to reiterate my argument when i've already done it.
You're wrong m8.

no you have mathematically failed to understand my logic or just chosen to ignore it so ive choosen to leave it be if you want i can pm you about it but doing so for the thread itself would be unproductive since i doubt even if you did understand it you would change your mind at this point

His maths are correct and you are wrong Mystoc. The opposing team still has to kill as many members even with a Double. Because to begin with Double is no one’s enemy. It’s like the slot doesn’t exist until it inherits a role.

[Shilster]

What's important right now is I've literally mathematically shown that you're wrong about the Double, and there is zero reason for me to reiterate my argument when i've already done it.
You're wrong m8.

no you have mathematically failed to understand my logic or just chosen to ignore it so ive choosen to leave it be if you want i can pm you about it but doing so for the thread itself would be unproductive since i doubt even if you did understand it you would change your mind at this point

Really similar argument made by Eragon in 15B

and town will lose a vote...

He kills you

We get a Cit in exchange for an NB

The thing is, if you kill a person and take their spot, your faction is one step close to majority.

And that's a good thing.

[Parallax7]

The reason Amnesiac is better, is because it doesn’t function on the gimmick of kicking someone out of the game to assist their own win condition. This is counter intuitive and unfair to the player, not to mention it brings disengagement.

Amnesiac, conversely, brings a player, or more precisely, a role back into the game to assist a player/role’s win condition. This is much less toxic, and beneficial, since it adds to a faction’s numbers, or more accurately restores them.

Which overall is more impactful, and healthy for the game overall.

[Shilster]

The reason Amnesiac is better, is because it doesn’t function on the gimmick of kicking someone out of the game to assist their own win condition. This is counter intuitive and unfair to the player, not to mention it brings disengagement.

Except it doesn't kick anyone out of the game, it merely replaces them. They can still talk in the dead chat and the Medium.

Amnesiac, conversely, brings a player, or more precisely, a role back into the game to assist a player/role’s win condition. This is much less toxic, and beneficial, since it adds to a faction’s numbers, or more accurately restores them.

It doesn't. It just takes up another person's role. Not the actual person. It doesn't "bring back" anything.

[Schultz128]

Any killing actions kicks people out of the game with no positives for their faction.

[BasicFourLife]

What people don’t understand is that it works the same as any other Killing role. Killing somebody. What’s the difference if a Double does it? There is little to no difference. Also arguably Amnesiac is much more toxic than the Double, because for example:
- Mafia kills BG
- Amnesiac remembers BG

Now Mafia is pretty much fucked and its toxic for them that a NB slot becomes the BG with no negatives suddenly. I’d say that’s quite unfun to play against and vice versa for Town and NK like 99% of the times gets absolutely fucked if NB rolls Amnesiac because the only way Amne can help them is either if the NK dies, but it’s basically throwing for Amnesiac dies or if a NE dies which is actually a pretty low chance unless the role list guarantees multiple NEs.

[ManateeDude]

Amne = +1 net gain for the faction
Double = 0 net gain

Its easy to tell which is more balanced.

[BasicFourLife]

Conclusion, Double is more better and balanced for the meta.

[Schultz128]

Conclusion, Double is more better and balanced for the meta.

yeah but people will still vote for "generic edgy shadow NK" or "busted mafia role" over this because they're brainlets.

[ManateeDude]

Conclusion, Double is more better and balanced for the meta.

yeah but people will still vote for "generic edgy shadow NK" or "busted mafia role" over this because they're brainlets.

lmao

[Icibalus]

as we all know, literally the only fully balanced neutral in existence is RUBBISH compared to Plaguebearer except they're also a firefighter who can start a 16p event during the day that can kill up to half or all of the people who join it

[dyaomaster]

Is there anything Survivor and Executioner can do to protect themselves from Double? (not really; claiming Surv paints a target on you because Surv has such a high winrate, and claiming anything else almost always means claiming Town, which has the highest factional winrate)

apart from that, I support this mainly because it will add precedent for putting Jester and Executioner as NB.

[Schultz128]

Executioner/Survivor would still win so long as the Double completes the goal.