Double - Neutral Benign

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Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Schultz128 » Tue May 29, 2018 9:17 pm

Name: Double

Alignment: Neutral Benign

Abilities: Once, shoot a player and inherit their role and alignment.

Attributes:
  • Shot pierces night immunity and cleans the victim.
  • Inherits all attributes of the victim, including any effects such as douses.
  • If the Double's shot fails for any given reason or is killed during the night of its conversion, the Double will lose.
  • The Double cannot win as a Double. They must become another role to win.

Goal: Inherit a new role/alignment and fulfill that alignment's wincon.

Win Conditions: Obtain a new role and achieve the wincon of that alignment.

Investigative Results:
Sheriff: Your target is not suspicious.
Investigator: Same grouping as Amnesiac.
Interviewer: Group C.
Consig/Witch: Your target is a gunman full of envy. They're a Double.

Additional Information: The only Neutral you'll ever need. Impactful with minimal swing to game balance.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby fwogcarf » Wed May 30, 2018 5:09 am

I highly doubt this is the ONLY Neutral we'll ever need, cause then it's confirmable. Also this is very similar to amnesiac in the sense of inheriting a role.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed May 30, 2018 5:55 am

I like this role, but I am quite neutral on it. It is quite balanced, but yeah it could fit in TG.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Jackparrot » Wed May 30, 2018 7:00 am

This role looks pretty great, only thing is, what is its def and attack value? (None,basic,powerful, unstoppable/invincible. Also, I’m not so sure about invest results,and it is kinda similar to Amne

/kinda support
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Schultz128 » Wed May 30, 2018 7:20 am

Pierces night immunities.

Can be roleblocked and stopped by TPs.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Parallax7 » Wed May 30, 2018 8:41 am

The main issue I have with Double - is that it’s an Amnesiac that is much less healthy for game health. In a game dependent on roles that are both engaging, and not complex(

Let me expand ~ while Double itself is more engaging than Amnesiac, it removes engagement in doing so. It kicks a player out of the game, and replaces them, Amnesaic does this as well, without kicking anyone out.

Double simply cannot exist, by virtue of the backlash and disengagement it’d introduce to the Town of Salem playerbase.

I mean, honestly, what can Double provide that Amnesiac cannot?
Last edited by Parallax7 on Wed May 30, 2018 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed May 30, 2018 8:43 am

Parallax7 wrote:The main issue I have with Double - is that it’s an Amnesiac that is much less healthy for game health. In a game dependent on roles that are both engaging, and not complex, Double simply cannot exist, by virtue of the backlash and disengagement it’d introduce to the Town of Salem playerbase.

I mean, honestly, what can Double provide that Amnesiac cannot?

Less swing and more balance
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Parallax7 » Wed May 30, 2018 8:46 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:The main issue I have with Double - is that it’s an Amnesiac that is much less healthy for game health. In a game dependent on roles that are both engaging, and not complex, Double simply cannot exist, by virtue of the backlash and disengagement it’d introduce to the Town of Salem playerbase.

I mean, honestly, what can Double provide that Amnesiac cannot?

Less swing and more balance



Please explain to me how, Hidden, I implore you. I’ve been waiting for a debate with you.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Schultz128 » Wed May 30, 2018 9:37 am

Parallax7 wrote:The main issue I have with Double - is that it’s an Amnesiac that is much less healthy for game health. In a game dependent on roles that are both engaging, and not complex(

Let me expand ~ while Double itself is more engaging than Amnesiac, it removes engagement in doing so. It kicks a player out of the game, and replaces them, Amnesaic does this as well, without kicking anyone out.

Double simply cannot exist, by virtue of the backlash and disengagement it’d introduce to the Town of Salem playerbase.

I mean, honestly, what can Double provide that Amnesiac cannot?


Double is for maintaining strength without revealing information.

Is Mafia likely going to win, but their role that is key to winning is likely to be lynched the next day?

Double up, it gives Mafia a new chance without revealing the dead player's alignment or role.

Is there a PR in the Town that's outed and left without protection?

Double up.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Schultz128 » Wed May 30, 2018 9:39 am

Issue I have with Amnesiac is that it's for the most part Town sided.

It's goal to convert its own alignment isn't intuitive as it's something that can't be countered by anything except a roleblock.

Double is balanced from a standpoint where you could run it as the only Neutral in the game without adding any swing to a simple Town vs Mafia game.

It has the kill of a NK and the support of a NE/NB.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby TheBrighterSkies » Wed May 30, 2018 10:41 am

I'm not a very good analyzer on role ideas and stuff, more like a casual watcher.

But I actually kinda like the idea of the Double.

However, I think that if the Double fails to inherit someone's role, the Double should die.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed May 30, 2018 11:36 am

TheBrighterSkies wrote:I'm not a very good analyzer on role ideas and stuff, more like a casual watcher.

But I actually kinda like the idea of the Double.

However, I think that if the Double fails to inherit someone's role, the Double should die.

If the Double's shot fails for any given reason or is killed during the night of its conversion, the Double will lose.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby TheBrighterSkies » Wed May 30, 2018 1:06 pm

You can lose without dying, right? Or am I just dumb?

Also, yeah, I get it BFL.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed May 30, 2018 1:14 pm

TheBrighterSkies wrote:You can lose without dying, right? Or am I just dumb?

Also, yeah, I get it BFL.

If you don't remember a role like Amne, then yes you can lose wo dying.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby ManateeDude » Wed May 30, 2018 1:48 pm

This is the perfect amne replacement, it lowers the easy confirmability of amne and makes it way less town sided.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Parallax7 » Wed May 30, 2018 2:45 pm

ManateeDude wrote:This is the perfect amne replacement, it lowers the easy confirmability of amne and makes it way less town sided.


This role is equally town sided - what...? And just remove Amnesiac’s remembrance notification.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby TheGator » Thu May 31, 2018 3:04 pm

this is a living amnesiac....
except you kill the person's role whom your remembering.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby walkerh13 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:34 pm

I like this role a lot as a replacement to Amnesiac. You have my vote!
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:24 pm

not sure if sure if post above this necroed since last post was may but

what if the target dies the night you shoot them from another source? does it still count?

and doesn't this role confirm itself? wouldnt it say sam was killed by the double exposing the double is now the dead that persons role? has same problem as anme in that it can confrim itself but unlike anme has to kill one its own allies to confirm itself basically a worse anme


===============================================


also this exactly like my admirer role but my role waits for the target to die and cant kill them itself

isn't there a rule NB isn't allowed to kill? i mean benign means harmless right?, this seems to break the core rule of the alignment

this is very counter-intuitive to join the side it must win with it has to kill one its allies HUGE anti synegry
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby ManateeDude » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:33 pm

The role is cleaned.
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:45 pm

ManateeDude wrote:The role is cleaned.



yea but people still know an double became a role so it can somewhat confirm itself

cleaning the role would only be useful to evil side and very hurtful to town

so to join town it has to kill an ally AND clean the role denying town info from the will and what role they were

so much anti synergy sure anme has problems but it doesn't shoot the side it joins in the foot, this role does its bad design
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby ManateeDude » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:48 pm

Mystoc wrote:
ManateeDude wrote:The role is cleaned.



yea but people still know an agent became a role so it can somewhat confirm itself

cleaning the role would only be useful to evil side and very hurtful to town

so to join town it has to kill an ally AND clean the role denying town info from the will and what role they were

so much anti synergy sure anme has problems but it doesn't shoot the side it joins in the foot, this role does its bad design


Amne brings back a dead slot, double takes a living slot. I dont see a problem
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:55 pm

ManateeDude wrote:
Mystoc wrote:
ManateeDude wrote:The role is cleaned.


Amne brings back a dead slot, double takes a living slot. I dont see a problem


the person that died though was killed by the opposite side in amnesiacs case

town who died at night evil killed them

evil role killed at night or was hanged

in both cases actions were used by the opposite side to cause the death thus giving the otherside a buffer the person who was killed died in the place of another ally who could of been killed (basicly they absorbed an attack which could of been on someone else)

===================================================================

this role unlike the anime cause they death of the ally so the person who was alive never "absorbed" an attack/hanging from the other side

also the whole cleaning thing hurts town too much i didn't see you mention that point at all
while the cleaning makes it easier to become evil it just hurts town too much and denies info

killing the an ally and then having to win with their allies is gonna hurt you chances of winning way the person died never abosrbing an attack from the opposite side was my point
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby ManateeDude » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:58 pm

It doesnt hurt town, it makes it much less easily confirmable. Yes it causes a death but it literally just does what amne does except amne is after death and this is before
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Re: Double - Neutral Benign

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:09 pm

ManateeDude wrote:It doesnt hurt town, it makes it much less easily confirmable. Yes it causes a death but it literally just does what Mnd does except amne is after death and this is before


you didn't address anything from what I just said at all

less confirmable yes, cleaning the role does this but hurts town tons it deny town info on a roleslot which make it harder to know what role can and cant still be allowed to roll in the game

and access to the persons will if the person thats identity the double took had important info in their will like jailor transporter or invest it just screwed over the side its trying to win with BIG TIME

the cleaning makes the double less confirmable but hurts town to much is my point

it killing the person and taking their role DOES hurt town or even mafia, if it kills NK then NK looses the game which is very hurtful (NK that is killed should win if the double wins IMO to be fair)

also it hurts town/mafia in this way

for the town/mafia to die the oppostion had to kill them for anmes case they died which took up an action of the other side is my point

this role has to use its own action to kill the person they died so you can become their role and help their side win but they never died absorbing an attack/hanging from the opposition

============================================

here since you arent getting it

n1 sam dies from a mafia attack
n2 amne remebers sams role

in double case

n1 sam is shot by the double and take his identity, mafia never had to waste a night to kill the same n1 they kill someone else n1 two town die instead of just one, sure you gain the ally of the agent but mafia doesn't waste the attack

do you get it now? it is not the same situation at all
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