Potential Forger Change.

Old Role Ideas

Multi question poll, you know how it do guys. You know how it do.

1. How good is the role?
1
3%
1a. Great! Send it into TG.
8
22%
1b Good, but needs some tweaking
1
3%
1c Neutral, no hard feelings one way or the other
1
3%
1d Bad, needs major modifications
2
5%
1e Terrible, needs to be completely re-done
0
No votes
2. Should the Forger be able to make someone appear as unique roles in the graveyard?
0
No votes
2a Yes
6
16%
2b No
4
11%
2c Unsure
2
5%
3. Should the Forger be able to make someone appear as Mafia/Neutral?
0
No votes
3a Yes
8
22%
3b No
2
5%
3c Unsure
2
5%
Be sure to leave any additional comments in the thread, this is only for bite sized info bits and doesn't actually help me much.
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 37

Potential Forger Change.

Postby SkyW » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:07 am

So as 90% of the people who play ToS know, forger is an underwhelming role that can't do much. It relies on knowing the targets real role, but if someone's made a role claim they're probably posted their will. And if they've posted their will you have to include what they posted in your forgery if you don't want to get busted, so you can really only change maybe 1-2 nights of information. Playing forger "undetected" like this doesn't give mafia much of an advantage, so some people just do "will wiping" where they choose someone and just have their will blanked or just have their name on it. This playstyle however just makes you a worse janitor, because the janitor would've gotten to know their real will, hide their role from the public, and opened up some claim space. I think we can all agree forger is in a bad spot right now, so I decided to rip-off the april fools prank made by a mod over at the Salem reddit, and post the prank over here as an actual suggestion instead of a faux update. Edit: Credit goes to u/seth1299, moderator of r/townofsalemgame, I am only a messenger.

Anyway's, witty comment or whatever. Here's the idea I stole brought from somewhere else so it can be submitted to TG properly.

Forger (Mafia Deception)

Abilities:

- Chose a person at night to forge their last will
- Upon doing so, you will also be prompted to select what role they show up as if they die.

Attributes:

- If a target dies, their last will is replaced with your forgery
- If a target dies, their role is replaced with your choice of role
- You may only perform three forgeries. (Might go back to two, depends on how powerful this role is and how easy it is to expose it)
- Can forge unique roles as to what the dead player appears as.

Special Attributes:

- You can talk to other members of the Mafia at night.
- If there are no (Mafia killing) roles left, you will be promoted into a Mafioso
- If a mafia or neutral is forged, they can not be revived. If a town role is forged, they can be revived only if they appear in the graveyard as a townie.

User Interface:

- The forger will have a second "will" option called "forgery". This is where they can write the fake will.
- When clicking on somebody to use their ability, they will be given a list of roles separated by faction/alignment from which they can select what to make their target appear as.
- Once the forger chooses what to make their target appear as, the "forgery" they wrote will automatically replace the will if the target dies.

Investigative Results:

- Investigator: Honestly, I've never been good with these things. I would put the normal Forger results but in actuality it's changes in abilities and playstyle may warrant a new category.
- Sheriff: Your target is a member of the Mafia!
- Witchliere: Your target is an expert at false documentation and forgery, they must be a Forger!

Goal and Wincon:

- Blah Blah mafia wincon.

Additional Comments

Now I know some of you may be asking yourself "SkyW, what the are you on about? You're suggesting we remove a forgery from an already weak role and replaced it with an additional ability. You've done more harm than good!" And to that I say your just plain old wrong. By allowing the forger to choose what their target shows up as a whole new world of deceptive capabilities is opened. Sure, you could do some of the basics. You could have someone show up as a sheriff and put in their will "X is mafia" But you can do a lot more than that. For instance, claimspace. Mafia needs claimspace, and where as the janitor can remove a townie from the role list so a mafia member can slip into that crack, Forger does something else. Forger can take a Town (Support) role and force them to appear as a Town (Investigative). This allows for a member of the mafia to claim Town (Support) safely, but it also makes it harder for the real Town (Investigatives) to claim without being thrown under suspicion because of the pre-existing dead Town (Investigive) roles. You can also choose to make them appear as a member of the mafia who was shot by the mafia, transporter shenanigans would explain that, and now the town thinks that it is slightly more safe than it really is. Of course you would need to somehow explain how a mafia shot a mafia, this is either through witch or transporter. You could claim transporter and say "I did that", but that only works if transportation becomes silent and less conformable. The real issue one should have is "Is it too close to janitor?" Let's look, shall we?

Janitor:

- Three potential cleans
- Learns real role and will of the deceased
- Clears up claimspace for mafia three times
- Town knows that the victim was cleaned
- Does not make it harder to claim certain roles/categories
- Really hard to fuck up a clean
- Medium can say "WEEE WOOOO WEEE WOOO"
- Can make more advanced plays by claiming medium and sharing info (true or false) about the cleaned target.

Forger:

- Two potential forges
- Does not learn role and will of the deceased
- Clears up claimspace for the mafia twice.
- Town does not know the victim was forged
- Does make it harder to claim what the victim appears as
- Can screw up, causing disregard of whatever they did. Wasting one of their two uses. Can also screw up by putting a Town (Support) role as a Town (Support) role and accidentally pressuring mafia claimspace instead.
- Medium can say "WEEE WOOOO WEEE WOOO"
- Can make slightly more advanced plays by having the deceased appear as mafia/neutral.

So yeah, they're VERY different. They have diffrent advanced tech and playstyle in general, Janitor tries to clean people early in hopes of getting easy claim space while the forger would wait a bit so they can put more falsehoods into the will/role of the deceased and pressure townie claimspace.

Changelog:

Edit: Gave exact credit to the moderator who did the April fools prank, u/seth1299.
Edit: Clarified interactions with Retributionist under Special Attributes
Edit: Added poll for easy sharing of opinions
Edit: Clarified how the U.I works under User Interface
Edit: Finalized decision of if you can make someone appear as a unique role, decided yes.
Edit: Changed forge count from 2 to 3
Last edited by SkyW on Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:31 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby rdoukkali » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:42 pm

I like this, seems that one of the worst roles could become useable!

Quick question: Would the dead player not be reviveable, like cleaned and stoned victims?
If yes, the Retributionist would instantly know there is a Forger:
If no, they would tell their real role and Town would know there is a Forger:
Not sure how to balance this, but I’m sure you could come up with something!

Now we just need to fix the Disguiser...
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby SkyW » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:32 pm

rdoukkali wrote:I like this, seems that one of the worst roles could become useable!

Quick question: Would the dead player not be reviveable, like cleaned and stoned victims?
If yes, the Retributionist would instantly know there is a Forger:
If no, they would tell their real role and Town would know there is a Forger:
Not sure how to balance this, but I’m sure you could come up with something!

Now we just need to fix the Disguiser...


I would say that they could be revived if they showed up as town roles in the graveyard. If they weren't then one of the most easily confirmed town roles could call them out, confirm themselves, then proceed to just say "Also these guys were forged." If you make a town role appear as a mafia/neutral role, then you couldn't revive them as that would reveal it they were forged. This also allows for them to make for instance a Bodyguard, a generally good revive option, appear as a low priority revive such as medium or even a nuetral/mafia to just shut down the revive completely. Having a member of the mafia appear as a town role, and then revived, shouldn't happen though. So if you end up getting transported into a member of the mafia and forging them instead, they could not be revived. If you or someone else thinks it should work differently, try to tell me why.

Or delete retri because retri was a mistake.

However I'm still working out the whole unique role issue. Do you have any thoughts on that?
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby Eragon1329 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:44 pm

Cannot forge unique roles but can forge to unique roles.

just like disguiser can be disguised as ret, and there is still an actual ret in-game




but can't forge a role like jailor to look like another role
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby SkyW » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:47 am

Eragon1329 wrote:Cannot forge unique roles but can forge to unique roles.

just like disguiser can be disguised as ret, and there is still an actual ret in-game




but can't forge a role like jailor to look like another role


I don't see why you couldn't forge a role like Jailer to look like something else. It's one of the most powerful roles in the game already, and the Mafia has two options to deal with it without releasing its will

- Janitor (Hides role entirely, Jailer will released only to the mafia so they can make plays based off of those claims)
- Forger (Wipes will or fabricates some of the nights OR in my version changes role and will entirely but doesn't know what the will was)

The Janitor can hide the role of the Jailer, so why couldn't this version of the Forger? It doesn't make sense for someone to be immune to Forgery. When I wrote
Can't/can forge unique roles as the dead players role (Unsure, would like feedback on)


I really meant that I wanted to know if you should be able to make someone appear as a unique role in the graveyard. Which you seem to be in full support of? Can you explain why you want it to be like that?
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby Villagerlover » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:28 am

Helllll yeahhhh!! I am totally up for this!
Forger can now actually DECEIVE players and becomes 1000x more useful than it is now.

In fact....
My changes/suggestions:

1) I think you should give is 3 forges instead of 2. I don't think it's overpowered when you compare it to a janitor's power. I don't see a good reason reason to limit the forger's potential more by only giving it 2 forges.

2) Separate the Forge Will button and "Disguise" options by doing this:
-Make the Forge Will button appear at the top of the screen similar to a "sun icon" so that the forger can plan a out a forged will at any point in the game
-When the Forger clicks on someone's name at night, instead of the forger will popping up, a prompt similar to the hypnotist pops up, asking you to pick a role to make the dead target look like it. Their last will should be automatically forged with whatever is already written in your Forged Will icon

3) In the attributes of the whole "unique" roles thing....just ignore it. If a forger chooses to make someone appear as the murdered Jailor when the real jailor is already dead, then it is a strange choice indeed, but perhaps it is built for something more elaborate like a currently unseen tactic in the future. Perhaps it could be used to help "deceive" the town by making them think the REAL Jailor was the actual forged target and the "real" jailor just died now. I dunno. But it's still a thing.
I see no reason to restrict it. Give the players the freedom to let 'em forge whatever they wish.



Overall though, I feel this forger change would be EXCELLENT for the Mafia, and I hope it actually gets implemented as soon as possible.
/FullSupport
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby SkyW » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:46 am

Thanks man! I appreciate the support.

In regard to your suggestions

1. The reason I put it at two is because that's how it was in the original idea for the april fools prank, but I guess I could change it to three without much harm. I'll definitely consider it.

2. Doh! I feel like an idiot for not making it like this. Editing that into the post right now

3. Yeah, most town unique roles are easily conformable anyways so I guess there's no reason to make it NOT an option. Plus mafia/neutral unique roles can't be killed by the mafia anyways so that would automatically raise some eyebrows. Adding that to the "consider" list as I still have to iron out the kinks.

Thanks for the support and suggestions Villagerlover.
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:12 am

/support
This is a great idea (Thanks to the AF reddit post), and I woukd love to have this in game.
Now all that needs to be fixed imo:
BG/Trap counterattack RNG.
Crus/Ambush attack RNG.
LO, Forge, Witch/CL results.
Psychic.
Disguiser.
Framer.
Hypnotist missing notifications.
Etc.
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby Applemader666 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:15 am

I genuinely like this idea, it seems like an overpowered Janitor at first but looking over it you realize that it's more than that. This seems fun to play as too, much more fun than the original Forger. Though it does have some similarities to Janitor, but I wouldn't worry about that. /Support

A few extra things though, it doesn't really seem that much of a "Forger" if it's purpose is to change the role of their target. Maybe change the name to something like accuser (bad example, but it's an example). The original Invest results seem fine for this role too.

Oh and I definitely agree with Villagerlover, you should have 3 forges.
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby SkyW » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:28 am

Blackwolfe99 wrote:/support
This is a great idea (Thanks to the AF reddit post), and I woukd love to have this in game.
Now all that needs to be fixed imo:
BG/Trap counterattack RNG.
Crus/Ambush attack RNG.
LO, Forge, Witch/CL results.
Psychic.
Disguiser.
Framer.
Hypnotist missing notifications.
Etc.


Yeah, those could all use a change in the vain of this one, or even something even more minor than that. I could see some ways to start fixing them up a little bit, but right now I'm focused on this Forger role with my sights set on arsonist. Thanks for the support Blackwolf.

Applemader666 wrote:I genuinely like this idea, it seems like an overpowered Janitor at first but looking over it you realize that it's more than that. This seems fun to play as too, much more fun than the original Forger. Though it does have some similarities to Janitor, but I wouldn't worry about that. /Support

A few extra things though, it doesn't really seem that much of a "Forger" if it's purpose is to change the role of their target. Maybe change the name to something like accuser (bad example, but it's an example). The original Invest results seem fine for this role too.

Oh and I definitely agree with Villagerlover, you should have 3 forges.


"Accuser" sounds like some type of executioner clone. I'll keep my eyes peeled for any good names out there.

There seems to be a good amount of people wanting it to be three forges. I'll change it for now. Thanks for the suggestions Apples.
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby Eragon1329 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:26 am

SkyW wrote:
Eragon1329 wrote:Cannot forge unique roles but can forge to unique roles.

just like disguiser can be disguised as ret, and there is still an actual ret in-game




but can't forge a role like jailor to look like another role


I don't see why you couldn't forge a role like Jailer to look like something else. It's one of the most powerful roles in the game already, and the Mafia has two options to deal with it without releasing its will

- Janitor (Hides role entirely, Jailer will released only to the mafia so they can make plays based off of those claims)
- Forger (Wipes will or fabricates some of the nights OR in my version changes role and will entirely but doesn't know what the will was)

The Janitor can hide the role of the Jailer, so why couldn't this version of the Forger? It doesn't make sense for someone to be immune to Forgery. When I wrote
Can't/can forge unique roles as the dead players role (Unsure, would like feedback on)


I really meant that I wanted to know if you should be able to make someone appear as a unique role in the graveyard. Which you seem to be in full support of? Can you explain why you want it to be like that?


I want it to be like that for the main reason that disguisers can do it. this helps get rid of the confirmabilty of some unique roles.

When I said can't forge jailor, I meant it can't change the role of jailor, or unique roles. Because if there is a guranteed jailor on the role list, and no one sees a jailor, this could hurt the town much more than any other mafia role. With this, it would be way to OP.
It should definitely be able to change the will of jailor though.
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby SkyW » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:59 am

Eragon1329 wrote: Spoiler:
SkyW wrote:
Eragon1329 wrote:Cannot forge unique roles but can forge to unique roles.

just like disguiser can be disguised as ret, and there is still an actual ret in-game




but can't forge a role like jailor to look like another role


I don't see why you couldn't forge a role like Jailer to look like something else. It's one of the most powerful roles in the game already, and the Mafia has two options to deal with it without releasing its will

- Janitor (Hides role entirely, Jailer will released only to the mafia so they can make plays based off of those claims)
- Forger (Wipes will or fabricates some of the nights OR in my version changes role and will entirely but doesn't know what the will was)

The Janitor can hide the role of the Jailer, so why couldn't this version of the Forger? It doesn't make sense for someone to be immune to Forgery. When I wrote
Can't/can forge unique roles as the dead players role (Unsure, would like feedback on)


I really meant that I wanted to know if you should be able to make someone appear as a unique role in the graveyard. Which you seem to be in full support of? Can you explain why you want it to be like that?


I want it to be like that for the main reason that disguisers can do it. this helps get rid of the confirmabilty of some unique roles.

When I said can't forge jailor, I meant it can't change the role of jailor, or unique roles. Because if there is a guranteed jailor on the role list, and no one sees a jailor, this could hurt the town much more than any other mafia role. With this, it would be way to OP.
It should definitely be able to change the will of jailor though.



Let's talk about the whole... unique town roles here

1. Fake Mayor death, Mayor can reveal or has already revealed
2. Fake Retributionist death, Retri can either revive or has already done so, to which they have already confirmed who they are.
3. Fake Jailer death, people are still getting jailed
4. Real unique Town death faked as something not a town power, "Hey guys the Town (power) hasn't revealed themselves and no one is getting jailed, I think there might be a forger"

There are plays among these options, but all of them can be cracked well, and a good forger won't use any of them unless they need too for some insane play. There is no reason to limit it at all. It's like how the disguiser CAN make themselves look like any role in the game, but there are some dumb ways to go about doing it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't let them do it.

Also if you couldn't make a town unique role appear as something else, then you will see their role remain the same but their will say something different. It instantly exposes the forger. You could make it so that the forge will just fail, but then your buffing some of the most powerful roles in the game because.... reasons. Also Janitor exists. Janitor can wipe town power off the graveyard list.
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby Eragon1329 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:07 am

True. So I guess it's fine being able to forge any unique role.
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:07 am

I could totally see this being used to make Investigator or Escort claims appears as Consigliere or Consort, so that Town will believe a member of the mafia over their own townies.
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Re: Potential Forger Change.

Postby rdoukkali » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:25 pm

I’m only just now realising the power this could have...

If you had your Random Mafias as Forger and Janitor...

The possible plays...

AMAZING...
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