Mortician-Not just a Mafia Retributionist

Old Role Ideas

Mortician-Not just a Mafia Retributionist

Postby KillaJake99 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:55 am

Role Name: Mortician

Role Alignment: Mafia

Attributes: You may only resurrect one person.
Your target will become their original role, under the name and number of a dead townie of your choice.
If there is no mafia killing, they will become mafioso instead.
If your target was godfather, they will become mafioso if there is already a godfather.
If there are no kill capable Mafia roles left after using your ability, you will become a Mafioso.
You can talk with other mafia at night.

Abilities: Revive a member of the mafia and disguise them under the identity of a dead townie.

Goal: Kill anyone who will not submit to the mafia.

Wins with: Mafia (and all associated)

Special Attributes: Unique Role

Investigative Results:
Sheriff: Your target is not suspicious.
Investigator: Medium, Retributionist, or Mortician

Additional Information (comments): At night, the Mortician sees the graveyard. He can choose one mafia member, and one town member. In the morning, the chosen mafia member will assume the appearance, position, and number of the dead town member. Whispering to the number of the "townie" will send messages to the mafia member who assumed their position, which the mortician can see. If a Retributionist targets the same town member the Mortician is bringing the dead mafia back as, the retributionist is "killed by mafia." (an alternative would be for the revived townie the retributionist brings back to assume the identity of the dead mafia member).



Edit:
Removed "You can hear private messages to and from your revived target." from abilities. Thought it would make for some usefulness to the role POST ability use, but there was some dissent as to whether or not this makes this class too overpowered.
Last edited by KillaJake99 on Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mortician-The Mafia Retributionist, but cooler.

Postby simpson210 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:08 am

This is a the pre 1.5 disguiser but instead of disguising yourself you disguise other people.
hi

Favourite Roles: Werewolf, Serial Killer, Jailor, Retri, Mayor, Blackmailer, Consigliere, Vamp, Arso

Least Fav Roles: Medium, Spy, Escort, Framer, Disguiser, Exec

im currently getting into competitive play so thats a thing

P.S My usual names are city lights, nick and ku.

Check out my role ideas!
======================
MY NEW FACTION: THE CIRCUS!
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Re: Mortician-The Mafia Retributionist, but cooler.

Postby Stiersquid » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:09 pm

I like this idea because it makes retributionist less confirmed. I just don't see why it has the ability to read whispers from their revived target.
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Re: Mortician-The Mafia Retributionist, but cooler.

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:57 pm

You know what I thought of this idea the other day and I gotta say it's cool

L
It would run into the same problems has Disguiser, hell this role is OP, but it's a cool idea /somewhatsupport
I mean if Town has Ret why can't Mafia have this c:
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Re: Mortician-The Mafia Retributionist, but cooler.

Postby Mystoc » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:02 pm

t's a forum role not make evil rets that rez dead faction members plz read the sticky

this is disguises evil mafia members as town members and will make it look like they are game throwing when they suddenly side with mafia this can mess with the reporting system

i get what your trying to do make ret not confirmable but there is a very ez counter to this and

that's medium can be told by the dead town member the mafia member took their body

or the real ret rezing someone else since two rezes happen then one must be an evil mafia a simple sheriff check and you done for (most times if not GF) or take a 50 hang one person jail the other

also if real ret rezes before you rez, you basically cant use ur ability now since it draw towns attention to the fact their is at least one fake ret in the game either way your going all in that town will believe your the real ret so most times its better to just not rez at all in this case

lastly since you wont get their will when rezed a rezed person will instantly be asked to copy and paste their will to prove the have the right will that matches to the dead person's bodies will they took

if they dont have it instantly hanged even giving them access to the bodies will doesnt solve every problem

also you cant revive you mafia member in many town bodies if they cant fake the role. cant do it for mayor transporter escort jailor and invest because those roles are unfakeable (unless the person who died was consig or consort the can fake inves/escort) but town will be on guard from that so largey these role won't work as a suitable body

also since you are forced to wait for a mafia member to die and then hope a town member with an easly fakable role dies you are just waiting doing nothing if with no ability if you die before these conditions are met you were useless the whole game, this role is too all in and swingy and too easily discovered as a fake ret

to successfully fool town the fake ret (mortician) must come out and say they are ret or it will look susp that a ret won't reveal who they are since once rezed its used its ability since they are now a citizen. So to rez one evil the mortician must reveal they are fake ret, if the rezed mafia member or fake ret dies and is revealed as mafia then the fake ret/rezed person will be soon to follow because it will be clear they are not town since they the person who rezed them wasn't too so you go all in with two members of the mafia to just save one

this is a cool idea but there are way too many counters to this idea and it's to all since the morticain needs to actually fake ret and reveal themselves for it to work

i don't not support cause i don't think the concept is cool it definitely is, theres just to many problems and easy counters this role has

i have been on these forums a while and tried alot way to fix these problems this concept suffers so i could post my own version of evil ret, and it cant be done, the role is too sitional and has to many counters too

==============================================================================================

BTW i copied most of what i just said from another post cause the idea of evil mafia ret is brought up at least 1-2 times a month it saves me time
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Re: Mortician-The Mafia Retributionist, but cooler.

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:30 pm

Spoiler:
Mystoc wrote:t's a forum role not make evil rets that rez dead faction members plz read the sticky

this is disguises evil mafia members as town members and will make it look like they are game throwing when they suddenly side with mafia this can mess with the reporting system

i get what your trying to do make ret not confirmable but there is a very ez counter to this and

that's medium can be told by the dead town member the mafia member took their body

or the real ret rezing someone else since two rezes happen then one must be an evil mafia a simple sheriff check and you done for (most times if not GF) or take a 50 hang one person jail the other

also if real ret rezes before you rez, you basically cant use ur ability now since it draw towns attention to the fact their is at least one fake ret in the game either way your going all in that town will believe your the real ret so most times its better to just not rez at all in this case

lastly since you wont get their will when rezed a rezed person will instantly be asked to copy and paste their will to prove the have the right will that matches to the dead person's bodies will they took

if they dont have it instantly hanged even giving them access to the bodies will doesnt solve every problem

also you cant revive you mafia member in many town bodies if they cant fake the role. cant do it for mayor transporter escort jailor and invest because those roles are unfakeable (unless the person who died was consig or consort the can fake inves/escort) but town will be on guard from that so largey these role won't work as a suitable body

also since you are forced to wait for a mafia member to die and then hope a town member with an easly fakable role dies you are just waiting doing nothing if with no ability if you die before these conditions are met you were useless the whole game, this role is too all in and swingy and too easily discovered as a fake ret

to successfully fool town the fake ret (mortician) must come out and say they are ret or it will look susp that a ret won't reveal who they are since once rezed its used its ability since they are now a citizen. So to rez one evil the mortician must reveal they are fake ret, if the rezed mafia member or fake ret dies and is revealed as mafia then the fake ret/rezed person will be soon to follow because it will be clear they are not town since they the person who rezed them wasn't too so you go all in with two members of the mafia to just save one

this is a cool idea but there are way too many counters to this idea and it's to all since the morticain needs to actually fake ret and reveal themselves for it to work

i don't not support cause i don't think the concept is cool it definitely is, theres just to many problems and easy counters this role has

i have been on these forums a while and tried alot way to fix these problems this concept suffers so i could post my own version of evil ret, and it cant be done, the role is too sitional and has to many counters too

==============================================================================================

BTW i copied most of what i just said from another post cause the idea of evil mafia ret is brought up at least 1-2 times a month it saves me time


It's not a "rule" just guidelines, this fixed the issue of evil ret because normal evil rets would just waste a day and get there target hung again
The main issue is when reporting this roles, but IT can be easily fixed by making reports happen at the end of the game only and everyone can look back at reports
and instead of taking 2 reports it should only take 1 report.

to combat false reports players should get warnings.

But that's a lot of changes to make room for this role which is Overpowered. (Just like ret to be fair).
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Re: Mortician-The Mafia Retributionist, but cooler.

Postby Mystoc » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:13 pm

Soulshade55r wrote: Spoiler:
Mystoc wrote:t's a forum role not make evil rets that rez dead faction members plz read the sticky

this is disguises evil mafia members as town members and will make it look like they are game throwing when they suddenly side with mafia this can mess with the reporting system

i get what your trying to do make ret not confirmable but there is a very ez counter to this and

that's medium can be told by the dead town member the mafia member took their body

or the real ret rezing someone else since two rezes happen then one must be an evil mafia a simple sheriff check and you done for (most times if not GF) or take a 50 hang one person jail the other

also if real ret rezes before you rez, you basically cant use ur ability now since it draw towns attention to the fact their is at least one fake ret in the game either way your going all in that town will believe your the real ret so most times its better to just not rez at all in this case

lastly since you wont get their will when rezed a rezed person will instantly be asked to copy and paste their will to prove the have the right will that matches to the dead person's bodies will they took

if they dont have it instantly hanged even giving them access to the bodies will doesnt solve every problem

also you cant revive you mafia member in many town bodies if they cant fake the role. cant do it for mayor transporter escort jailor and invest because those roles are unfakeable (unless the person who died was consig or consort the can fake inves/escort) but town will be on guard from that so largey these role won't work as a suitable body

also since you are forced to wait for a mafia member to die and then hope a town member with an easly fakable role dies you are just waiting doing nothing if with no ability if you die before these conditions are met you were useless the whole game, this role is too all in and swingy and too easily discovered as a fake ret

to successfully fool town the fake ret (mortician) must come out and say they are ret or it will look susp that a ret won't reveal who they are since once rezed its used its ability since they are now a citizen. So to rez one evil the mortician must reveal they are fake ret, if the rezed mafia member or fake ret dies and is revealed as mafia then the fake ret/rezed person will be soon to follow because it will be clear they are not town since they the person who rezed them wasn't too so you go all in with two members of the mafia to just save one

this is a cool idea but there are way too many counters to this idea and it's to all since the morticain needs to actually fake ret and reveal themselves for it to work

i don't not support cause i don't think the concept is cool it definitely is, theres just to many problems and easy counters this role has

i have been on these forums a while and tried alot way to fix these problems this concept suffers so i could post my own version of evil ret, and it cant be done, the role is too sitional and has to many counters too

==============================================================================================

BTW i copied most of what i just said from another post cause the idea of evil mafia ret is brought up at least 1-2 times a month it saves me time


It's not a "rule" just guidelines, this fixed the issue of evil ret because normal evil rets would just waste a day and get there target hung again
The main issue is when reporting this roles, but IT can be easily fixed by making reports happen at the end of the game only and everyone can look back at reports
and instead of taking 2 reports it should only take 1 report.

to combat false reports players should get warnings.

But that's a lot of changes to make room for this role which is Overpowered. (Just like ret to be fair).


you did not address how easily this can countered and the fact you have reveal you fake ret and go all in on it if either of you dies the person rezed or fake ret will be hanged

also the copy paste will strategy defeats this right away

also you are useless until someone dies if you die first in mafia you will be useless, their also the correction of when the mafias member died and when they rezed if a person is rezed the day after a mafia died towns gonna put two and two together easily, so most times you have to wait a few days to rez an mafia member

the concept sounds cool but to many mechanical and ez counters to do vrs this for this idea to work
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Re: Mortician-The Mafia Retributionist, but cooler.

Postby KillaJake99 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:09 pm

simpson210 wrote:This is a the pre 1.5 disguiser but instead of disguising yourself you disguise other people.


Well, if you just rezzed a mafia member... lol. Insta-lynch. Although, that could make for a useful waste of a day for town, buying maf another night.

Stiersquid wrote:I like this idea because it makes retributionist less confirmed. I just don't see why it has the ability to read whispers from their revived target.


It was to add a little post-ability usefulness. Ret, when reviving a townie, brings 2 confirmed town roles, which is great for town, but they are basically useless afterwards unless the player is intelligent and can contribute to town. Not much of a reason for maf to kill them post-ability. Once the mortician brings back their member, I figured being able to see private messages between their mafia member and another allows for a little extra information and flavor, and differs them from Ret. It also allows a counter to the spytest, since if any spytest is whispered to or from their mafia member, the mortician can see it and pass it. Therefore, Mortician can claim ret OR spy for added counters. This is not flawless, however, if the town sends spytest whispers to others, but it could work if they succeed the ones from their hidden maf member, and the town doesn't pay too much attention.

EvilPudding wrote:LOL. FIX YOUR ROLE IMMEDIATELY. I DONT LIKE IT.


Do you have any constructive criticism or some feedback that I can actually use to do this?
Last edited by KillaJake99 on Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mortician-The Mafia Retributionist, but cooler.

Postby KillaJake99 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:57 pm

Mystoc wrote:t's a forum role not make evil rets that rez dead faction members plz read the sticky

this is disguises evil mafia members as town members and will make it look like they are game throwing when they suddenly side with mafia this can mess with the reporting system

i get what your trying to do make ret not confirmable but there is a very ez counter to this and

that's medium can be told by the dead town member the mafia member took their body

or the real ret rezing someone else since two rezes happen then one must be an evil mafia a simple sheriff check and you done for (most times if not GF) or take a 50 hang one person jail the other

also if real ret rezes before you rez, you basically cant use ur ability now since it draw towns attention to the fact their is at least one fake ret in the game either way your going all in that town will believe your the real ret so most times its better to just not rez at all in this case

lastly since you wont get their will when rezed a rezed person will instantly be asked to copy and paste their will to prove the have the right will that matches to the dead person's bodies will they took

if they dont have it instantly hanged even giving them access to the bodies will doesnt solve every problem

also you cant revive you mafia member in many town bodies if they cant fake the role. cant do it for mayor transporter escort jailor and invest because those roles are unfakeable (unless the person who died was consig or consort the can fake inves/escort) but town will be on guard from that so largey these role won't work as a suitable body

also since you are forced to wait for a mafia member to die and then hope a town member with an easly fakable role dies you are just waiting doing nothing if with no ability if you die before these conditions are met you were useless the whole game, this role is too all in and swingy and too easily discovered as a fake ret

to successfully fool town the fake ret (mortician) must come out and say they are ret or it will look susp that a ret won't reveal who they are since once rezed its used its ability since they are now a citizen. So to rez one evil the mortician must reveal they are fake ret, if the rezed mafia member or fake ret dies and is revealed as mafia then the fake ret/rezed person will be soon to follow because it will be clear they are not town since they the person who rezed them wasn't too so you go all in with two members of the mafia to just save one

this is a cool idea but there are way too many counters to this idea and it's to all since the morticain needs to actually fake ret and reveal themselves for it to work

i don't not support cause i don't think the concept is cool it definitely is, theres just to many problems and easy counters this role has

i have been on these forums a while and tried alot way to fix these problems this concept suffers so i could post my own version of evil ret, and it cant be done, the role is too sitional and has to many counters too

==============================================================================================

BTW i copied most of what i just said from another post cause the idea of evil mafia ret is brought up at least 1-2 times a month it saves me time



I'm going to address each of your points individually.

1. Not a rule to "not make evil rets," just a guideline. However, the point of this role is not to make an evil ret. It is to add a new role that borrows some current and old things from various other roles to make it unique in it's function. It can balance some of the overpowered nature of ret, as it sows doubt in some about the "confirmed" ret. It can't be used as soon as Ret, because a mafia membe has to die first, and there are a lot less of those than town. This isn't an "evil ret," as in a copy, but for maf. It has unique and different elements to it.

2. Literally anyone can be reported for gamethrowing because someone doesn't like their attitude. The best fix for this is to delay reporting until the end of the game, and ask for a confirmation after they leave the game if they want to report them or not. And the trick is to not side with mafia blatantly.

3. Dude. There is an easy counter to lots of things. Spytest. Amne claims not remembering what someone wanted them to. Lookouts in general. Mediums wrecking other medium claims. Your point that it is easy to counter means nothing. Even if it is "easy to counter," jailor has to waste an exe, town has to waste a lynch/day, vig has to waste a bullet. Can't counter that.

4. Sure, medium can be told by the dead townie that the mafia took their body. If the medium is alive, or even present in the game.

5. The real ret rezzes someone else the same night. Big deal. Jailor loses an exe, and town loses a day. Now they're back to square 1 because while a maf and town were both killed (unless Mortician is killed first), they ALSO have to deal with BOTH of the rezzed people (one being maf, the other being town.) So now they have ANOTHER 50/50 decision to make, UNLESS in the will of the Mortician or Ret, they say who they rezzed. But that's IF they keep a will, which ret's rarely do because they're so easily confirmed currently.

6. If the real ret rezzes firt, it's the same thing as above. The same can also be said if the Mortician rezzes first. The suspicion will be drawn to the 2nd person to rez, which encourages Mortician to rez first, even with no Ret in the game.

7. Dead maf can still read maf chat. Therefore, the mortician can say "copy X's will, ________" and then the dead will copy the will of whoever that is they will be taking the place of. (This only works if the spy is already dead, but workarounds will be found). The rezzed member could also be allowed to see the original person's role, similar to janitor, if that works.

8.Kinda does. Even if they are instantly hanged, it's a waste of a lynch. Buys maf a night.

9. The thing is, many of these roles CAN be faked. Most of the time, no one would bat an eye at a revived town member. But, all they have to do is get their maf members to claim transed, jailed, or rb'd. Or give fake invest roles just by knowing what people are and knowing the invest groups. People fake roles all the time, it's not uncommon. If town is suspicious of them, that's fine. It buys them some time nonetheless.

10. Again, don't need the role to be easily fakeable. Just need to be moderately convincing. Also, ret is useless after their ability is used too. Also too "all-in" but who cares? It adds fun and suspicion where there may be none. People in town roles already act stupid and suspicious sometimes. Some people may not bat an eye.

11. Everything you just said is completely fine. Fooling the town is not something that needs to be done for the entire game. It's okay to die. It's okay to revive a maf member for one or two kills. It buys the mafia time. If the mortician is found out, now that's two kills that need to happen. They won't go for the mortician first, but if they do, then the person the mortician brought back gets another kill. If the other dies, it depends on whether there is a vig or jailor that has another kill available. If not, Mortician becomes a mafioso and gets the maf another kill. It buys time and kills.

12.There are many counters for many things. Some rely on specific circumstances to occur, like a ret or medium being in the game. It is what it is. The counter for an amne could be 2 or 3 amnes in a game. The counter many things is a transporter. BG and Doctor are practically invincible if they know who each other is, and they choose each other. So regardless, it doesn't matter if there are counters because the same could be said for anything.

13. I mean, their are problems with a lot of roles. That is what testing and patches are for.

14. It is absolutely possible if it isn't nitpicked, and the concept is actually tested and changed based on feedback, just like disguiser and spy and arso. It's just what happens in multiplayer games.

15. The problem with copy-pasting is that a lot of the points that are made aren't tailored to the situation.


Regardless, I appreciate the feedback.
I just wish there was more consideration for the possibilities.
The fact is that even if the Mortician is found out, the mafia buys themselves some time to kill some more people.
While the town may go after the mortician and the revived maf, they ALSO could be passing up on leads for other roles, like NK, giving THEM a better chance of winning. If the town wastes time on the Mortician and his rezzed maf buddy, the Arso, WW, SK, and Witch ALL get more time to do their own things. Arso DEFINITELY benefits from more time. Not only that, but the Jailor or vig will most likely waste their exes and shots, which means a lesser chance for the NKs dying. The mortician is not just a mafia support. They can benefit the NKs too by stealing time from the TK's, TP's, Jailor, and town days, and giving it to the Evils. I think it definitely is worth the support. Also, you can'y say there are all these counters when many people wouldn't know them, or would be focused on other things. In a perfect game with really intelligent people, sure. But not everyone is like that. Relying on the human element that makes Town of Salem so fun is why many roles get shot down because the concept is too "overpowered" or has "too many counters." Give it a shot. Play 100 games with it, see how it goes. I guarantee it will be a fun and interesting experience nonetheless.

BMG can always recall a role if it doesn't work out, or change how it works, like they have in the past. It's not a big deal if something becomes inbalanced. Ret needs a counter, it's overpowered as is because there is no way to disprove their claim, and it not only REZZES A TOWNIE, but also CONFIRMS 2 LIVING TOWN ROLES. If that gets flipped on it's head, well...
Also, if Ret and Mortician rez the same townie on the same night (Mortician obviously rezzes Maf AS that townie), the Ret dies and is "killed by maf." It would show that he was visited by the rezzed town/maf if lookout was on him. Again, buys time, IF people think that he was killed by the Mortician and NOT just killed by maf. Again, circumstantial. Townies have to determine whether or not they think a Mortician is in the game, then they have to kill the rezzed townie, and then the mortician. Wills and lookouts may impact this outcome, they may not. It depends on the choices of humans, and their thinking process just like everything else in the game.

Support it. Give it a shot. It's not as broken as you may think.
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Re: Mortician-The Mafia Retributionist, but cooler.

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:02 pm

Mystoc wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote: Spoiler:
Mystoc wrote:t's a forum role not make evil rets that rez dead faction members plz read the sticky

this is disguises evil mafia members as town members and will make it look like they are game throwing when they suddenly side with mafia this can mess with the reporting system

i get what your trying to do make ret not confirmable but there is a very ez counter to this and

that's medium can be told by the dead town member the mafia member took their body

or the real ret rezing someone else since two rezes happen then one must be an evil mafia a simple sheriff check and you done for (most times if not GF) or take a 50 hang one person jail the other

also if real ret rezes before you rez, you basically cant use ur ability now since it draw towns attention to the fact their is at least one fake ret in the game either way your going all in that town will believe your the real ret so most times its better to just not rez at all in this case

lastly since you wont get their will when rezed a rezed person will instantly be asked to copy and paste their will to prove the have the right will that matches to the dead person's bodies will they took

if they dont have it instantly hanged even giving them access to the bodies will doesnt solve every problem

also you cant revive you mafia member in many town bodies if they cant fake the role. cant do it for mayor transporter escort jailor and invest because those roles are unfakeable (unless the person who died was consig or consort the can fake inves/escort) but town will be on guard from that so largey these role won't work as a suitable body

also since you are forced to wait for a mafia member to die and then hope a town member with an easly fakable role dies you are just waiting doing nothing if with no ability if you die before these conditions are met you were useless the whole game, this role is too all in and swingy and too easily discovered as a fake ret

to successfully fool town the fake ret (mortician) must come out and say they are ret or it will look susp that a ret won't reveal who they are since once rezed its used its ability since they are now a citizen. So to rez one evil the mortician must reveal they are fake ret, if the rezed mafia member or fake ret dies and is revealed as mafia then the fake ret/rezed person will be soon to follow because it will be clear they are not town since they the person who rezed them wasn't too so you go all in with two members of the mafia to just save one

this is a cool idea but there are way too many counters to this idea and it's to all since the morticain needs to actually fake ret and reveal themselves for it to work

i don't not support cause i don't think the concept is cool it definitely is, theres just to many problems and easy counters this role has

i have been on these forums a while and tried alot way to fix these problems this concept suffers so i could post my own version of evil ret, and it cant be done, the role is too sitional and has to many counters too

==============================================================================================

BTW i copied most of what i just said from another post cause the idea of evil mafia ret is brought up at least 1-2 times a month it saves me time


It's not a "rule" just guidelines, this fixed the issue of evil ret because normal evil rets would just waste a day and get there target hung again
The main issue is when reporting this roles, but IT can be easily fixed by making reports happen at the end of the game only and everyone can look back at reports
and instead of taking 2 reports it should only take 1 report.

to combat false reports players should get warnings.

But that's a lot of changes to make room for this role which is Overpowered. (Just like ret to be fair).


you did not address how easily this can countered and the fact you have reveal you fake ret and go all in on it if either of you dies the person rezed or fake ret will be hanged

also the copy paste will strategy defeats this right away

also you are useless until someone dies if you die first in mafia you will be useless, their also the correction of when the mafias member died and when they rezed if a person is rezed the day after a mafia died towns gonna put two and two together easily, so most times you have to wait a few days to rez an mafia member

the concept sounds cool but to many mechanical and ez counters to do vrs this for this idea to work


Well it's very OP so it should have a lot of counters to be fair.
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Re: Mortician-Not just a Mafia Retributionist

Postby KillaJake99 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:09 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:It's not a "rule" just guidelines, this fixed the issue of evil ret because normal evil rets would just waste a day and get there target hung again
The main issue is when reporting this roles, but IT can be easily fixed by making reports happen at the end of the game only and everyone can look back at reports
and instead of taking 2 reports it should only take 1 report.

to combat false reports players should get warnings.

But that's a lot of changes to make room for this role which is Overpowered. (Just like ret to be fair).


To start, I think that reporting should have a confirmation at the end of the game (or whenever you leave) as it is, in case Jester was being obnoxiously Jester, but everyone thinks he's town. That's just a fairness thing. And then yes, only actually send one report PER issue. (one for gamethrowing, one for hate speech, etc.) (On the backend, it could just compile all reports from a single game for the same person into one report. X player got 7 counts of gamethrowing, 2 counts of hatespeech, etc from this one game, and then under each incident, the comments are provided)
This is meant to combat the overpowered nature of Ret by sowing doubt and buying time for maf. There are a lot of subtle elements behind this role that I think could provide really fun and unique games.
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Re: Mortician-Not just a Mafia Retributionist

Postby Mystoc » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:35 pm

1. Not a rule to "not make evil rets," just a guideline. However, the point of this role is not to make an evil ret. It is to add a new role that borrows some current and old things from various other roles to make it unique in it's function. It can balance some of the overpowered nature of ret, as it sows doubt in some about the "confirmed" ret. It can't be used as soon as Ret, because a mafia membe has to die first, and there are a lot less of those than town. This isn't an "evil ret," as in a copy, but for maf. It has unique and different elements to it.

for sake of argument and balance of the role lets ignore the gamethrowing part

2. Literally anyone can be reported for gamethrowing because someone doesn't like their attitude. The best fix for this is to delay reporting until the end of the game, and ask for a confirmation after they leave the game if they want to report them or not. And the trick is to not side with mafia blatantly.

for sake of argument and balance of the role lets ignore the gamethrowing part

3. Dude. There is an easy counter to lots of things. Spytest. Amne claims not remembering what someone wanted them to. Lookouts in general. Mediums wrecking other medium claims. Your point that it is easy to counter means nothing. Even if it is "easy to counter," jailor has to waste an exe, town has to waste a lynch/day, vig has to waste a bullet. Can't counter that.

saying there other ez counters so it ok this role can be countered is not supporting your role but hurting
spy no longer see whispers you cant spy test

town isnt wasting an hang or jailor isnt wasting a exe they need u dead its not a waste if you want say its ok cause its give mafia one extra day then fine that is useful but being deadly hanged or killed right after you get rezed won't be fun


4. Sure, medium can be told by the dead townie that the mafia took their body. If the medium is alive, or even present in the game.

exactly one role just gets you hanged imdeadilty big coin flip 50/50 if you get to try fool town are just hanged the day after the next fun game, thats not balance

5. The real ret rezzes someone else the same night. Big deal. Jailor loses an exe, and town loses a day. Now they're back to square 1 because while a maf and town were both killed (unless Mortician is killed first), they ALSO have to deal with BOTH of the rezzed people (one being maf, the other being town.) So now they have ANOTHER 50/50 decision to make, UNLESS in the will of the Mortician or Ret, they say who they rezzed. But that's IF they keep a will, which ret's rarely do because they're so easily confirmed currently.

again you are viewing it has mafia gets another night and town has to kill them again of viewing it has you just get killed right away and the whole purpose of the role idea which is unconfirming meduim is not achieved

6. If the real ret rezzes firt, it's the same thing as above. The same can also be said if the Mortician rezzes first. The suspicion will be drawn to the 2nd person to rez, which encourages Mortician to rez first, even with no Ret in the game.

yes you might get the other person killed but has soon has they die your rezed mafia person is dead next

7. Dead maf can still read maf chat. Therefore, the mortician can say "copy X's will, ________" and then the dead will copy the will of whoever that is they will be taking the place of. (This only works if the spy is already dead, but workarounds will be found). The rezzed member could also be allowed to see the original person's role, similar to janitor, if that works.

that will work in high elo games yes,

you seem to still be under the impression spy sees mafia chat they don't nor do they see whispers i feel you havent played this game in a while, so your first example works perfectly, that gets rid of the will problem so that's good and in the right direction i hadn't thought about dead people seeing what mafia says, there are still way to many other problems


8.Kinda does. Even if they are instantly hanged, it's a waste of a lynch. Buys maf a night.

you marketing ther role has town has to kill you an extra time and yes thats a good strength, i

im seeing it has ret is no longer confirmed your saying to town can find you easily but it doesn't matter,
im seeing it has ret still can confrim itself

see the problem ret is still ret this role doesn't stop it from being confrimed[/b]

9. The thing is, many of these roles CAN be faked. Most of the time, no one would bat an eye at a revived town member. But, all they have to do is get their maf members to claim transed, jailed, or rb'd. Or give fake invest roles just by knowing what people are and knowing the invest groups. People fake roles all the time, it's not uncommon. If town is suspicious of them, that's fine. It buys them some time nonetheless.

you are limited though in what role you can choose, if mafia all fakes being transed theey are going all in on that one role, since if one them dies the others will die to from hanging or jailor since it will be clear if one is evil they are all evil

10. Again, don't need the role to be easily fakeable. Just need to be moderately convincing. Also, ret is useless after their ability is used too. Also too "all-in" but who cares? It adds fun and suspicion where there may be none. People in town roles already act stupid and suspicious sometimes. Some people may not bat an eye.

dont base balance on low elo games, balance is based on how the role can be used best, town wont act stupid for luls

11. Everything you just said is completely fine. Fooling the town is not something that needs to be done for the entire game. It's okay to die. It's okay to revive a maf member for one or two kills. It buys the mafia time. If the mortician is found out, now that's two kills that need to happen. They won't go for the mortician first, but if they do, then the person the mortician brought back gets another kill. If the other dies, it depends on whether there is a vig or jailor that has another kill available. If not, Mortician becomes a mafioso and gets the maf another kill. It buys time and kill

again your viewing it has they need to "waste" the time to kill you, im viewing at as you rezed someone for one die were forced to claim ret otherwise its susp AF and then vig shoots the rezed person and your hanged too, this would be a waste of an ability it just got you killed, stop using they have to take the time to kill you has a valid reason it isnt

12.There are many counters for many things. Some rely on specific circumstances to occur, like a ret or medium being in the game. It is what it is. The counter for an amne could be 2 or 3 amnes in a game. The counter many things is a transporter. BG and Doctor are practically invincible if they know who each other is, and they choose each other. So regardless, it doesn't matter if there are counters because the same could be said for anything.

13. I mean, their are problems with a lot of roles. That is what testing and patches are for.

14. It is absolutely possible if it isn't nitpicked, and the concept is actually tested and changed based on feedback, just like disguiser and spy and arso. It's just what happens in multiplayer games.

15. The problem with copy-pasting is that a lot of the points that are made aren't tailored to the situation.


you're not the first to suggest it is my point it cant work this idea has been out there since town of salem was a game, to many counters

====================================================================================

i notice you did not address my point if you die first you did nothing at all for mafia, its RNG in the fact an mafia member has to die before you

also the fact that if someone is rezed the day after a mafia dies people are gonna susp them right away, no way sheriff doesn't check this person no way at all

picture it the LO has been dead for 2 nights already day before mafioso gets hanged, and then suddenly the lO who has been dead gets Rezed whose been dead 3 nights now not susp at all nope no way, see problem?

ret in high elo games rezed the first role that dies almost always and rez that happens right after a mafia dies is gonna be suspect right away, so most times you gotta wait a few night to make it look not susp, also in that time you could be killed

again cool concept i don't think it can work GL with role though, i would like to see it in TG just so you can see how easily this idea would be countered and how easily it would be tell a real ret rez from this fake one
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Re: Mortician-Not just a Mafia Retributionist

Postby KillaJake99 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:49 pm

Mystoc wrote:you're not the first to suggest it is my point it cant work this idea has been out there since town of salem was a game, to many counters The disguising aids it a bit in being more unique, but it seems that this idea is generally just hated on because people hate ret, so mafia ret is even worse or whatever.

====================================================================================

i notice you did not address my point if you die first you did nothing at all for mafia, its RNG in the fact an mafia member has to die before you I didn't address it because it was a pointless statement. If you die as ret, you did nothing for town if you didn't rez anyone.

also the fact that if someone is rezed the day after a mafia dies people are gonna susp them right away, no way sheriff doesn't check this person no way at all And then the sheriff checks them. Oh shit, they're mafia. It's possible TI is gonna be killed either by maf or random killing, so generally not a big concern this late in the game. Not a problem if they are suspected when they're rezzed. A good player can talk their way out of it. If town is adamant, then they waste either a lynch or a exe/bullet. Win for maf either way.

picture it the LO has been dead for 2 nights already day before mafioso gets hanged, and then suddenly the lO who has been dead gets Rezed whose been dead 3 nights now not susp at all nope no way, see problem? No, because if the Mortician claimed ret early on, and if they are a decent player, they will say they were waiting for a better role, or didn't see it, or some excuse that an actually good player would come up with. If they pull it off, great, if not, whatever.
If they didn't claim retri, then they shut up about it, let the maf get invested or killed if they can't talk their way out of it, and move on.


ret in high elo games rezed the first role that dies almost always and rez that happens right after a mafia dies is gonna be suspect right away, so most times you gotta wait a few night to make it look not susp, also in that time you could be killed
Anyone can be killed at any time. Kind of the point of the game. The mafia rez can be an intentional way to delay town if they were on to something, or completely throw some people off.
again cool concept i don't think it can work GL with role though, i would like to see it in TG just so you can see how easily this idea would be countered and how easily it would be tell a real ret rez from this fake one
The point is not always to tell the difference between a real ret and a mortician. Sometimes, it's just to throw a wrench into the town's plans. Now they're focused on the rezzed person who is probably maf to them. They try to confirm their role and check their will and all that while the rest of the mafia get to think about their next move, analyze the people more, and find their next target(s).
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Re: Mortician-Not just a Mafia Retributionist

Postby EvilPudding » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:46 pm

Dude... just stop... this role is trash. Just delete it.
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That's how evil it is.
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Re: Mortician-Not just a Mafia Retributionist

Postby fwogcarf » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:54 am

EvilPudding wrote:Dude... just stop... this role is trash. Just delete it.


lol can you provide an explanation why you want it deleted?
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Re: Mortician-Not just a Mafia Retributionist

Postby EvilPudding » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:10 pm

fwogcarf wrote:
EvilPudding wrote:Dude... just stop... this role is trash. Just delete it.


lol can you provide an explanation why you want it deleted?


Can you provide an explanation on why you can't tell that it is so obvious that this role is trash?
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Re: Mortician-The Mafia Retributionist, but cooler.

Postby TurkeyGod » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:01 am

simpson210 wrote:This is a the pre 1.5 disguiser but instead of disguising yourself you disguise other people.


And is that such a bad thing?
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Re: Mortician-Not just a Mafia Retributionist

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:05 pm

Instead of having a mafia retributionist (which it in essence is), we should just not have a town retributionist.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Mortician-Not just a Mafia Retributionist

Postby Stiersquid » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:40 pm

Kirize12 wrote:Instead of having a mafia retributionist (which it in essence is), we should just not have a town retributionist.

Very true
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Re: Mortician-Not just a Mafia Retributionist

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:16 pm

EvilPudding wrote:
fwogcarf wrote:
EvilPudding wrote:Dude... just stop... this role is trash. Just delete it.


lol can you provide an explanation why you want it deleted?


Can you provide an explanation on why you can't tell that it is so obvious that this role is trash?

can you like...not?

I mean I don’t like this role personally but you don’t see me bullying him
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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