Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

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Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Gooose26 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:39 pm

Change: Players will no longer know how a player died but instead will just see "____ was killed last night".

This removes some confirmability and nerfs the town. Now, evils will be able to claim within their investigative results without the bias that was there before (I.e. Serial Killer claiming Doctor on the stand). Although there are ways to watch killing patterns and break through this system a little bit, it is still a complete improvement across the board.

(Disclaimer: This thread was made and deleted, this is a remake)
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby KingoftheRocks » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:13 pm

Gooose26 wrote:Change: Players will no longer know how a player died but instead will just see "____ was killed last night".

This removes some confirmability and nerfs the town. Now, evils will be able to claim within their investigative results without the bias that was there before (I.e. Serial Killer claiming Doctor on the stand). Although there are ways to watch killing patterns and break through this system a little bit, it is still a complete improvement across the board.

(Disclaimer: This thread was made and deleted, this is a remake)


Huh. Seems like a complete change to a fundamental part of TOS.

Spoiler: I like it.

This helps almost all Non-Town, and nerfs most of Town.

Town:
Spy gets a buff, being the only role that can tell what role visits who. This means a spy can see if there's a SK, WW, Arso, whatever.
Veteran hates this and has reported you for hate speech, as now he isn't the most confimable peice of Town, Scum to exist.
Vigilante gets the same problem, but not to the same extent. So does Jailor, but eh.
Mafia:
This doesn't do too much for them, but makes Janitor harder to play as (do we want to let town know we killed this guy as the cost of keeping potentially more dangerous info?) problem will now exist.
Neutrals: (love you)
Serial Killers: can disguise himself to look like a WW, which could give him a suprise attack on an important town role as TP will be on mafia targets every even night. Can also disguise as an Arsonist the same way he can now, but with morw help after he kills.
Werewolfs: Ehhh. People will probably figure out that there's a WW, but you can claim easier, and even stay home and claim VETERAN, which is such a ballsy move people won't even suspect it for a while.
Arsonists: People will either know there's an arso by Day 3 or assume that it's a unlucky WW. This role is simply unaffected.
Serial Killers do seem to get the biggest buff, as they can disguise as another role the easiest.
Witch: Gets a nerf, actually. Because of the inability to find the NK, a witch could visit a stay at home WW when they otherwise wouldn't because they thought they were a SK.

All in all, seems good.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby oOYuuArtSuiOo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:27 pm

I agree. This makes it on late game, with Vigi, Jailor and Godfather and Medium,
it would be hard to claim you're Vigi at that point

I like it

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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Gooose26 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:34 pm

KingoftheRocks wrote:Town:
Spy gets a buff, being the only role that can tell what role visits who. This means a spy can see if there's a SK, WW, Arso, whatever. Spy is bad, the problem here is Spy,
not the change.

Veteran hates this and has reported you for hate speech, as now he isn't the most confimable peice of Town, Scum to exist. Here is a fix, praise be to this fix
Vigilante gets the same problem, but not to the same extent. So does Jailor, but eh. Problem? You just told me something really good and then called it a problem
Mafia:
This doesn't do too much for them, but makes Janitor harder to play as (do we want to let town know we killed this guy as the cost of keeping potentially more dangerous info?) problem will now exist. True, but it does help with not confirming town in the situational circumstance that a townie is protected by Doctor and proving they aren;t mafia when NK still killed, or vice versa.
Neutrals: (love you)
Serial Killers: can disguise himself to look like a WW, which could give him a suprise attack on an important town role as TP will be on mafia targets every even night. Can also disguise as an Arsonist the same way he can now, but with morw help after he kills. Dont think this is the strongest strategy but yes
Werewolfs: Ehhh. People will probably figure out that there's a WW, but you can claim easier, and even stay home and claim VETERAN, which is such a ballsy move people won't even suspect it for a while. Yup
Arsonists: People will either know there's an arso by Day 3 or assume that it's a unlucky WW. This role is simply unaffected. Yup
Serial Killers do seem to get the biggest buff, as they can disguise as another role the easiest. Yup
Witch: Gets a nerf, actually. Because of the inability to find the NK, a witch could visit a stay at home WW when they otherwise wouldn't because they thought they were a SK. You do remember that Witch is told the role of who they controlled right? If they control the NK, they found the NK

All in all, seems good. Yup
/support Sweeet
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Algus » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:21 am

I don't like the idea, we just got confirmation that the average ranked winrate for (im assuming most players above silver) is still only 51-59%; including master tier

nerfing town strictly is something I'll never agree with, nor will I ever agree that spy (the current worst TI, when it used to be the best) needs any further nerfs, and BMG will not delete a role, and it's already the worst so you're basically asking for a rebuff, which I'm totally fine with.

As people have already mentioned, this essentially strictly hurts vig and vet, and only helps evils. While NK is the lowest W/R; theres far better ways to help them than to also help mafia in the process.

what I've had to keep repeating for years now is; town is the majority in each game. The majority of players are going to be town members, anything that shifts the winrate out of towns favor is hurting the majority of the players in any given game.

I'm fine with buffing NK's; SK would probably be the easiest to buff, just give them the ability not to attack the jailor for instance / make sheriff find them to be NS (like it does with Arso, and for whatever reason doesn't do with WW on full moon nights)

I'm not fine with helping out a 4 man team with a night chat and the ability to coordinate.



---Just to flesh this out further, vig and vet can simply copy system messages to prove themselves anyway.
So I don't see the point other than to add another ridiculous metagame scenario where I have to paste my bullets, / alerts / action taken that night into chat the following day.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Mystoc » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:36 am

i agree with this change, but ur sk example wouldnt work

each NK has distinct way they kill so an extra kill every night would mean NK is SK
kills every other night means WW esp if two extra people die
no kills for a long time means asro

yes SK could fake being these roles by not killing all the time, but that is a low elo strategy that will loose you the game so doing it would be bad idea
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Gooose26 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:09 pm

Balance does not mean winrates. Balance is the combination of winrates AND good mechanics. You are ignoring the good mechanics part. You need to understand that confirmability is ruining the game because it limits scumreading and deception. It doesn't matter if there are good winrates if the game isn't fair. I always give the example of a role. Tell me what you think:

God
Spoiler: Role Alignment: Town (Support)

Abilities:
- Night 1 will randomly roll who wins the game, town mafia or nk, each faction has a 33% chance to win

Atributes:
- Cannot be roleblocked
- Astral visit
- Unstoppable Defense


If you are doing what you are suggesting in this post, where only winrates matter, then this role is 100% balanced. However, I think it is obvious that this role is bad since the bad mechanics are so obvious. Spy falls into this category. It may have a good winrate balance, but it is a terrible mechanic. Framer, Consigliere and Blackmailer or completely screwed over, does that sound like fun? Spy can find the entirety of the mafia if they just note down who has been visited and they survivie to the end, that is overpowered in my sense just as much as a bad mechanic. We need to buff town roles to be more effective while also removing bad mechanics like confirmability that ruin the game. Nowhere am I saying that this change will give the perfect winrate, although I do think it does step into the right direction, but it is still needed nonetheless.

Even if you are just looking at winrates, then 51% is still to much. The idea of the game is that going into the match, the faction that plays the best wins the match. 51% is biased, it needs to be 33% along with mafia and NK at 33%. What you said specifically was...

Algus wrote:anything that shifts the winrate out of towns favor is hurting the majority of the players in any given game.


This is 100% correct, the majority of the players is not the goal here, just that the skilled win. What you are pushing for when you say that the majority should have a higher winrate is that the game is based on RNG rather than skill, where your chance of winning is highly determined by the RNG that gives you your role at the beginning of the game. If this is what you want, then that is fine but just remember the point of the game isn't to have as many players win as possible, just the smartest. I don;t know why you hate the mafia.

I would continue with other points but they aren't important until you agree with me on winrates.

Mystoc wrote:i agree with this change, but ur sk example wouldnt work

each NK has distinct way they kill so an extra kill every night would mean NK is SK
kills every other night means WW esp if two extra people die
no kills for a long time means asro

yes SK could fake being these roles by not killing all the time, but that is a low elo strategy that will loose you the game so doing it would be bad idea

It has situational implications.

Doc protects target
Doc comes out and dies early game or...
When there is one kill the next day then players may believe it was a Werewolf with no visitors

Or just the fact that many kills may happen any day.

The second kill n1 was Veteran, for instance. It creates situations where assuming what you would think happened took place isn't too strong of a meta.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Algus » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:32 pm

I do not agree on winrates, you missed the point i made regarding them. Skilled players, anyone playing above silver and climbing are the ones with those winrates, not a specific faction. I even said the average winrate for -players- in a growing elo range. The fact that skilled players are maintaining a winrate as low as 51% means that no, changes like this are not needed.

Believe me, I liked the original game far better where scumreading and logic was the sum of the game, not metagaming; however your proposal inevitably leads to more of it, not less.

Having said that, I stand by every single thing in my post.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:17 am

Algus wrote:I do not agree on winrates, you missed the point i made regarding them. Skilled players, anyone playing above silver and climbing are the ones with those winrates, not a specific faction. I even said the average winrate for -players- in a growing elo range. The fact that skilled players are maintaining a winrate as low as 51% means that no, changes like this are not needed.

Believe me, I liked the original game far better where scumreading and logic was the sum of the game, not metagaming; however your proposal inevitably leads to more of it, not less.

Having said that, I stand by every single thing in my post.

So why is it that this is the winrate?

And since you aren't talking about that as far as winrates, I'm assuming that you do wish for mafia, town and nk to all have 33% winrates.

You do not balance the skilled player, you balance all of the game and then the skilled players win fair. If the more skilled players are having less wins as town on the top, it is because the town roles are low-skill. I believe that metagaming denies the ability for town players to play with skill and replaces it with step-by-step instructions that will be manipulated and fail but not following them is a one-way ticket to getting lynched, or what you may know as metagaming, because that is what metagaming is in a game based around deception. This is not a problem of the players just being bad, this is a problem of confirmability, which promotes metagaming. I do not see how my change here, getting rid of some confirmability would negatively affect town near as much as you think. In fact, I think that using your logic this is a perfect change. Less confirmability, means less metagaming, and worse winrates for town closer to 33% so everything here is perfect.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:04 am

But I LIKE the TEXT color :c HOW DARE YOU NO SUPPORTAAHHH


But for reals this would be a mayor buff for mafia and Nks MUCH needed.
/support
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby polypies73 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:35 am

@algus where did you get those statistics from? Cause I would disagree with those.

I mostly support the change. However I think town deaths should still be separated from mafia/nk. This is because the chaos of if there’s only one kill by a TK so it seems liek maf, even though an Esc rb’d maf, it’d be pretty swingy.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Mathelete » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:52 pm

KingoftheRocks wrote:Witch: Gets a nerf, actually. Because of the inability to find the NK, a witch could visit a stay at home WW when they otherwise wouldn't because they thought they were a SK.

All in all, seems good.
/support


If a witch makes a stay-at-home WW visit someone, then they're no longer stay-at-home. Witch should be fine, right? As long as they don't make the WW visit themself.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Flake » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:22 pm

I don't really see any necessity to give Mafia such a large buff, especially since, at current, Mafia's win rate is hardly lacking. I think the Town shouldn't be ENTIRELY uninformed when Mafia kills for this reason. This would become a large issue when roles like Mafia and Serial Killer are present in a game; the overwhelming majority of the time, it would literally be impossible to know who killed who. At the same time, I don't feel Town should be entirely informed about all faction kills either. As such, I think it would be a good addition for Neutral Killing (and other Independent killing roles), given their low win rate and need for both survivability and claimspace. They can now claim Town Killing with less issues, among other positivies. As such, I would suggest the following (taken from my Ranked Overhaul):

Generalised Death Announcements
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put in place so that there is some skill required in finding out who killed a player as opposed to simply "knowing" who killed who in all cases. This also indirectly gives a new use for the Medium; since a dead player will know exactly who they are killed by, a Medium can relay this information to the Town.

The new Generalised Death Announcements are as follows:

"They were killed by an Independent Force"

Can be: Town Killing, Town Protective (except Doctor), Neutral Killing, Neutral Chaos or Jester.

"They were killed by a member of the Mafia"

Can be: Mafia

"They were killed by a part of the Coven"

Can be: Coven
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:05 pm

Flake wrote:I don't really see any necessity to give Mafia such a large buff, especially since, at current, Mafia's win rate is hardly lacking. I think the Town shouldn't be ENTIRELY uninformed when Mafia kills for this reason. This would become a large issue when roles like Mafia and Serial Killer are present in a game; the overwhelming majority of the time, it would literally be impossible to know who killed who. At the same time, I don't feel Town should be entirely informed about all faction kills either. As such, I think it would be a good addition for Neutral Killing (and other Independent killing roles), given their low win rate and need for both survivability and claimspace. They can now claim Town Killing with less issues, among other positivies. As such, I would suggest the following (taken from my Ranked Overhaul):

Generalised Death Announcements
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put in place so that there is some skill required in finding out who killed a player as opposed to simply "knowing" who killed who in all cases. This also indirectly gives a new use for the Medium; since a dead player will know exactly who they are killed by, a Medium can relay this information to the Town.

The new Generalised Death Announcements are as follows:

"They were killed by an Independent Force"

Can be: Town Killing, Town Protective (except Doctor), Neutral Killing, Neutral Chaos or Jester.

"They were killed by a member of the Mafia"

Can be: Mafia

"They were killed by a part of the Coven"

Can be: Coven


this change only helps mafias ambusher and mafia killing twice in night proves theres an ambusher anyway

explain how generalizing changes anything the only instance i can think of is vet and vig and that's a nerf to mafia and a buff to town

since mafia doesn't know if the person visited was vet on alert or the mafia member just happened to be shot be the vig that night

generalizing death messages is a buff to town cause mafia doesn't know what to look out for crusader trapper BG vet all kill and if mafia doesn't know how to play around the roles the kill they play more poorly, yes town doesnt know a role is confirmed for sure to be in the game now but i feel it hurts mafia more than it hurts town by far
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby xXIllegalPotatoXx » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:09 pm

Spoiler: I haev way too much time on my hands to make this, but here we go.

Flake,
That doesn't really help/harm anyone much. The only roles affected are ww claiming veteran and sk disguising as ww (not sure why people would want to do that but ok). Also, no kill messages make end-game a lot more interesting, when it is a lot harder to guess who has majority. Also could open the door for a TI Coroner of some sort to determine the cause of death. No kill messages also solves a lot of the games problems. Think of it like this.

Kill messages
D2:Mathlete died last night. He was killed by a Serial Killer. His role was Escort.
Will:Escort, N1: Flake
Goose26: Lynch Flake!
-Ah, the ever present escort/sk dilema...-

D3:YuuArtSui died last night, he was shot by a Veteran. His role was Vigilante
Will:Vigilante, N1: Cleaning gun, N2: Random shooting polypies
polypies: Well, guess i'm confirmed...WHISPER ME ROLES!!!
-I think we can agree confirmed townies are a bad thing...-

D4:KingoftheRocks died last night. He was killed by a Potion Master. His role was Crusader.
(Mystoc, the spy, thinks 'Now I know that the heal and reveal potions were used N1 and N2, and rolelist says only two coven left and nobody heals n1, so xXIllegalPotatoXx or Algus is coven)
*xXIllegalPotato is lynched, his role was trapper!*
Mystoc: Jailor get Algus!
-Just adds another example of being completely powerless against a lynch/kill as an evil, which is obviously bad.-

__________________________________________________________________

Generalized messages
N2: Mathlete died last night. He was killed by an independent force. His role was Escort.
*one coven kill*
Will, N1: Flake
(Goose26 thinks, 'Crusader unlikely, veteran as well, Arso, WW, and Jugg can't kill N1. Pirate is possible, but would have been in will...Flake is Crusader, Veteran, Pirate, or Sk)
Goose26: Flake, role?
Flake: Investigator.
Goose26: LYNCH HIM
*Flake was lynched, his role was serial killer."
-Just makes finding the sk have an extra step-

D3:YuuArtSui died last night. He was killed by an independent force. His role was vigilante.
Will: N1: Cleaning gun, N2: Random shooting polypies
Soulshade: polypies is immune! Kill him!
*polypies is lynched*
-Add some confusion, I can live with it-


D4: KingoftheRocks died last night. He was killed by a member of the Coven. His role was Crusader.
*one other coven kill*
(Mystoc, the spy, thinks 'Two Coven kills today, previoulsy only one. Now I know that the heal and reveal potions were used N1 and N2, and rolelist says only two coven left and nobody heals n1, so xXIllegalPotatoXx or Algus is coven)
*xXIllegalPotato is lynched, his role was trapper!*
Mystoc: Jailor get Algus!
-Not much different from direct kill messages.-


No messages

Obviously has none of the negative effects of the one's above. Spy might be able to figure the D3 out, but just as easily could be vig or vet or pirate or bg ot you name it. D3 polypies gets lynched anyways.

Overall, Generalized helps...but not much. At all.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Algus » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:25 pm

polypies73 wrote:@algus where did you get those statistics from? Cause I would disagree with those.

I mostly support the change. However I think town deaths should still be separated from mafia/nk. This is because the chaos of if there’s only one kill by a TK so it seems liek maf, even though an Esc rb’d maf, it’d be pretty swingy.


straight from a developer in the ELO overhaul thread. Read for yourself.

that being said, no I also do not agree with a 33/33/33 whatever (theeres 4 factions in the current ranked list but NE is a swing so I see why you dismissed it)

The majority of players in any given game will be town members, in order for any elo system to work at all, town would have to have the highest winrate of the 3 factions, followed by mafia, followed by NE (since they can get help from mafia/nk) followed by NK as they are an army of 1 vs 13/14. The idea of helping BOTH the mafia and the NK is poorly thought out in general, as the mafia doesn't actually need this kind of help. Other kinds, sure, see my post on Disguisers; Mafia rolelists could use some tweaking as would adjusting spy to not see deceptive visits (but in doing so they have to be rebuffed elsewhere, despite their situationally useful abilities, they are the worst vanilla TI currently.)

As for NK, find ways to help them that don't also help mafia in the process. The winrates (again, taken straight from the developers) of an average player in silver+ (which is where you balance a game, not around lower ranks) proves that the current system is almost keeping them barely above water in terms of winrate, despite the odds of them being town (who should have the natural highest winrate) being higher than the odds of them being any other role on average.

Now having repeated myself; find a new solution that helps NK's without indirectly helping mafia, who (as stated, do need some QoL changes) don't need to be straight up handed free buffs. Even my proposal gave them serious buffs with the balance being a rebuff to their nemesis TI. Mafias winrate is not as low as people pretend it is, as a skilled mafia can win any given game where they have a good roleset; which is another topic I touched on.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Gooose26 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:15 am

polypies73 wrote:@algus where did you get those statistics from? Cause I would disagree with those.

I mostly support the change. However I think town deaths should still be separated from mafia/nk. This is because the chaos of if there’s only one kill by a TK so it seems liek maf, even though an Esc rb’d maf, it’d be pretty swingy.

What you just mentioned is balance, or a situation where a mechanic of a role does not screw over an evil just because it visited correctly. Swing would be if you could deduce this and find an evil.

Flake wrote:I don't really see any necessity to give Mafia such a large buff, especially since, at current, Mafia's win rate is hardly lacking. I think the Town shouldn't be ENTIRELY uninformed when Mafia kills for this reason. This would become a large issue when roles like Mafia and Serial Killer are present in a game; the overwhelming majority of the time, it would literally be impossible to know who killed who. At the same time, I don't feel Town should be entirely informed about all faction kills either. As such, I think it would be a good addition for Neutral Killing (and other Independent killing roles), given their low win rate and need for both survivability and claimspace. They can now claim Town Killing with less issues, among other positivies. As such, I would suggest the following (taken from my Ranked Overhaul):

Generalised Death Announcements
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put in place so that there is some skill required in finding out who killed a player as opposed to simply "knowing" who killed who in all cases. This also indirectly gives a new use for the Medium; since a dead player will know exactly who they are killed by, a Medium can relay this information to the Town.

The new Generalised Death Announcements are as follows:

"They were killed by an Independent Force"

Can be: Town Killing, Town Protective (except Doctor), Neutral Killing, Neutral Chaos or Jester.

"They were killed by a member of the Mafia"

Can be: Mafia

"They were killed by a part of the Coven"

Can be: Coven

Why do you think that the mafia kill should be seperate? I believe all you are doing is allowing Escorts to deduce who the mafia/coven killing is, which is a bad situational mechanic. There is no chaos when you dont know kills, just a lack of information. This does not mean chaos or swing.

Algus wrote:that being said, no I also do not agree with a 33/33/33 whatever (theeres 4 factions in the current ranked list but NE is a swing so I see why you dismissed it)

The majority of players in any given game will be town members, in order for any elo system to work at all, town would have to have the highest winrate of the 3 factions, followed by mafia, followed by NE (since they can get help from mafia/nk) followed by NK as they are an army of 1 vs 13/14. The idea of helping BOTH the mafia and the NK is poorly thought out in general, as the mafia doesn't actually need this kind of help. Other kinds, sure, see my post on Disguisers; Mafia rolelists could use some tweaking as would adjusting spy to not see deceptive visits (but in doing so they have to be rebuffed elsewhere, despite their situationally useful abilities, they are the worst vanilla TI currently.)

As for NK, find ways to help them that don't also help mafia in the process. The winrates (again, taken straight from the developers) of an average player in silver+ (which is where you balance a game, not around lower ranks) proves that the current system is almost keeping them barely above water in terms of winrate, despite the odds of them being town (who should have the natural highest winrate) being higher than the odds of them being any other role on average.

Now having repeated myself; find a new solution that helps NK's without indirectly helping mafia, who (as stated, do need some QoL changes) don't need to be straight up handed free buffs. Even my proposal gave them serious buffs with the balance being a rebuff to their nemesis TI. Mafias winrate is not as low as people pretend it is, as a skilled mafia can win any given game where they have a good roleset; which is another topic I touched on.

An ELO system is supposed to seperate good players from bad players. The lower ELO you are, the worse the player you are, and the higher ELO you are, the better the player you are. This system works in order to ensure that if you want a game at your level you can easily get it. This is why a 33% winrate for mafia, nk, and town is necessary so that the faction with the most skill wins. Yes, more people lose when the minorities win, but they deserved to lose and that is fair. The point is not for those who play the most to be at the top of the ladder, which would be the effect of having a higher winrate for town. You get town more often than others, and you win more often with town. Thus, you will improve with town, despite your skill level. You should not improve ELO unless you have become a better player, and the only way to know if you've become better is if you have won.

You are not backing your claims, you are stating them like they are a fact, which to you they may seem like it but to me and anybody else who is looking at your argument and disagrees it is just misguided and unconvincing.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Algus » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:59 pm

"You are not backing your claims, you are stating them like they are a fact, which to you they may seem like it but to me and anybody else who is looking at your argument and disagrees it is just misguided and unconvincing."

The source to my Facts, is in bold red print right under any of flakes messages.
So deny away.
As for you just contradicting yourself, I shouldn't bother as it seems 10 days have passed (i am never here nowadays apologies); If a player is more likely to be town, which they are, and over hundreds of games has barely above a 50% winrate, despite them having a higher chance to be on the highest natural winrate faction; that means that despite landing on the
highest winrate faction they're still losing often enough to keep their winrate as low as it is.

Think very hard about what was just said. It's not rocket science; it's basic logic, which is what this game is all about. If, despite having higher odds of being on the highest natural winrate faction they still have a winrate barely over 50% as a skilled player, as a player that's played thousands of games, as a player that can scumread/keep track of wills/make logical decisions-- then as things are despite some feeling of injustice means that the current system IS in fact, working; As the "SKILLED" players are still moving up the ladder.

Those without it are heading down or getting stuck where they truly belong.

This idealogy that town needs changed is a side effect of mafia occasionally having shit RMs, or being demoralized in general; as they ARE MEANT to have less odds of winning. HOWEVER, this in no way, shape, or form means they are destined to lose.

Failure to plan is a plan to fail and all. The ones that actually try the ones that have the skill to truly convince and deceive and pick their targets right can win.

For the final time however, do not put a mafia buff under an NK buff guise; As you just showed that you were biased against mafia standing out in that suggestion. As for NK's; it's going to be obvious unless sk lies low or hits immune n1; unless ww stays home; etc.

This change helps mafia exclusively in fact and honestly doesn't help NK's in the slightest, as their kill signature is far easier to spot. Even if they do lie low it's going to be blatant if an escort dies visiting an sk; doesn't even matter if it's a werewolf if there happens to be 2 kills that night, or if its night 1, or if multiple people/mafia (godfather especially) die n2. It's going to completely rule out anything but SK out n1 and anything but WW out if 3 people die n2, and late game it's going to be obvious who an nk/arso is anyway. Lying low does not help them at all. Nor does this proposed change.

Now I hate walls of text but if you still miss my point, or even continue to ignore the more obvious flaws with the suggestion, (such as copy pasting system messages, which is absolutely what I'd be doing day 1 of this change -- IRL day 1 not in game -- as TK)
or the statistics alone then there's honestly nothing else I can do to dissuade you.

It's a bad idea, it's complex as to what specifically makes it bad, and most people aren't realizing that, but that's the simple truth.

The above being said, this is not by any means personal to you. It could be anyone's suggestion and my answer would remain the same.

--to clarify, 5th page of flake's link (where you can clearly see me advocating for PLAYER SKILL being extremely important prior to any of this discussion, as well as the Dev statistics)

I absolutely support individual player skill. We currently already have it however, else there wouldn't be so many people "stuck" in lower ranks.

To finish this statement, I still have not played 200 ranked games this season, as I stopped playing again several weeks ago in favor of killing floor. I'll pick it up soon, again, I'm sure. This game is like riding a bicycle, you never forget when you already know how to properly do it.

As a direct result, I'm still only at 1500; though bear in mind I have not played after climbing to that point, I'm not stuck there, it's just as far as I grinded to thus far.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Gooose26 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:25 am

Algus wrote:Think very hard about what was just said. It's not rocket science; it's basic logic, which is what this game is all about. If, despite having higher odds of being on the highest natural winrate faction they still have a winrate barely over 50% as a skilled player, as a player that's played thousands of games, as a player that can scumread/keep track of wills/make logical decisions-- then as things are despite some feeling of injustice means that the current system IS in fact, working; As the "SKILLED" players are still moving up the ladder.

The "basic logic" debate is what I meant. It's better to recognize that the topic is more complicated than basic logic, and to be aware that you may be wrong. But whatever, your content is still there. My debate here is that you are ruining the game here, as in you can get screwed over. When everybody has an equal chance of winning, you can win by playing better or if the other team messes up. When the town is stronger than nk and mafia, then the mafia will need the town to make some mitakes or get unlucky to be able to win. If the town is strong enough to win each time they play solid, then the mafia will need them to mess up. That is a problem, you shouldn't have to wait for the enemy to make a mistake when the enemy doesn't have to wait for your mistake.

This idealogy that town needs changed is a side effect of mafia occasionally having shit RMs, or being demoralized in general; as they ARE MEANT to have less odds of winning. HOWEVER, this in no way, shape, or form means they are destined to lose.

Failure to plan is a plan to fail and all. The ones that actually try the ones that have the skill to truly convince and deceive and pick their targets right can win.

For the final time however, do not put a mafia buff under an NK buff guise; As you just showed that you were biased against mafia standing out in that suggestion. As for NK's; it's going to be obvious unless sk lies low or hits immune n1; unless ww stays home; etc.

Buffing mafia and nerfing town our different ways of achieving the same affect, but if you buff the mafia you dont fix the bad mechanic of knowing how somebody died, which can lead to things like Escort finding the killer for instance. Bad mechanics need to be fixed before winrates need to be fixed. Please tell me if you disagree with this because I don't consider this to be a controversial subject (Not the mafia buff/town nerf thing, the need for mechanical fixes). I'm aware that this change does not have much of an effect on the NKs, but with the introduction of more NKs there may be a time when it is extremely helpful. Right now it is necessary to hide the NKs kill because if you don't then the mafia part, which is the biggest reason why I want this change introduced, would be less effective and deducing can still be done. If we allow evils to be found easily without any deception or scumreading, then there is less scumreading and deception and games become stale. (Please tell me if you disagree with that last statement)



This change helps mafia exclusively in fact and honestly doesn't help NK's in the slightest, as their kill signature is far easier to spot. Even if they do lie low it's going to be blatant if an escort dies visiting an sk; doesn't even matter if it's a werewolf if there happens to be 2 kills that night, or if its night 1, or if multiple people/mafia (godfather especially) die n2. It's going to completely rule out anything but SK out n1 and anything but WW out if 3 people die n2, and late game it's going to be obvious who an nk/arso is anyway. Lying low does not help them at all. Nor does this proposed change.

There are some basic situational fixes, but you are right for the most part. However, with other roles killing, like maybe a Veteran who you can no longer confirm, it may be harder to deduce what the NK is, since there may be 2 kills on night 1 without SK, or maybe 3/4 kills night 2, etc.

Now I hate walls of text but if you still miss my point, or even continue to ignore the more obvious flaws with the suggestion, (such as copy pasting system messages, which is absolutely what I'd be doing day 1 of this change -- IRL day 1 not in game -- as TK)
or the statistics alone then there's honestly nothing else I can do to dissuade you.

Any set system message can be written out by smart, deceiving players. In high elo, pasting system messages will not do much. But I don't understand what system messages you are talking about. What system messages ruin this change?

--to clarify, 5th page of flake's link (where you can clearly see me advocating for PLAYER SKILL being extremely important prior to any of this discussion, as well as the Dev statistics

I'm not saying there is no content to your claims, I'm just saying you are talking about a subject which is pretty much all theory and claiming it is basic and obvious. It isn't basic or obvious, and we both need to be looking on each other's side and considering that we may be wrong, otherwise we won't get anywhere.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Gooose26 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:25 am

Bumped this because I had a discussion about this yesterday with a cool dude, figured I'd reopen the discussion but in a proper thread.
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:32 pm

Just a quick question before I write my entire thoughts on this, does the attacked target know who/what killed them if they die? "You've been attacked by a Serial Killer!" or similar?
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby JacksonVirgo » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:12 am

I honestly love this idea, it allows the INFORMED minority to have more information than the UNINFORMED majority. The fact that Town can never distinguish a Town Killing, Neutral Killing or Mafia attacks just by death announcement alone is incredibly powerful for evils.

For example, a Neutral Killing role can easily fake being another NK and thus have town try and find the Neutral Killing which isn't in the game (lynching BG claims for Arsonist, Sheriff claims for WW and Doctor claims for SK). It will also make the Death Notes a very deceptive tool and would actually have a really good reason to be used or not used depending on the situation (since TK roles don't have death notes, use that to deceive town)

In other words,
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Re: Unknown Cause of Death (Game Change)

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:13 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:Just a quick question before I write my entire thoughts on this, does the attacked target know who/what killed them if they die? "You've been attacked by a Serial Killer!" or similar?

That’s an interesting thought, I don’t really know if thst would be good or not. I would say that is a good buff for the Medium, so sure.
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