Coroner (Town Investigative)

Old Role Ideas

How is it?

Balanced
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Overpowered
13
50%
Underpowered
2
8%
 
Total votes : 26

Coroner (Town Investigative)

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:51 am

Role Name:
Coroner

Summary:
You are a specialist in investigating suspicious deaths.

Stats:
Attack: None
Defense: None
Priority: 4th Priority

Role Alignment:
Town (Investigative)

Abilities:
- Every night may choose a dead body to investigate
- Every night may trace 2 players to the body

Attributes:
- You will know if either of your targets visited the dead body the night of its death
- May only check a dead body once
- If your target is framed, then they will appear to have visited the body on the day of its death

Goal:
Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

Win Conditions:
Wins With Town
Wins With Survivor
Must Kill Mafia
Must Kill Witch
Must Kill Serial Killer
Must Kill Arsonist
Must Kill Werewolf
May Spare All Others

Investigative Results:
Investigator - "Your target searches for untrustworthy civilians. They could be an Interviewer, Vigilante, Coroner, Mafioso or Warlock."
Consigliere - "Your target studies dead bodies. They must be a Coroner."
Sheriff - "Your target is not suspicious."

Sample Text:
"You will study the body of Gooose26 today."
(Choosing a dead player during the day)

"You will trace Gooose27 tonight.
You will trace Gooose28 tonight."
(Choosing 2 living players to trace to the dead player at night)

"Gooose27 had visited the dead the night of his murder.
Gooose28 had not visited the dead the night of his murder."
(Night results of 2 targets)

Achievements:
- Win 1 game as a Coroner - (10 mp)
- Win 5 games as a Coroner - (20 mp)
- Win 10 games as a Coroner - (40 mp)
- Win 25 games as a Coroner - (100 mp)
- Find a target that visited the dead player but didn't kill him - (20 mp)
- Find 2 visitors of your dead target on the same night - (40 mp)
- Find all killing roles in one game - (100 mp)

Lore: (Not complete)

Change Log:
12/12/17 - Role created
2/3/18 - Added poll
2/13/18 - Renamed Pathologist to Coroner

Additional Information:
It's sort of a post-mortem Lookout, but not really as it isn't told exactly who visited the dead player, there is a need for scumreading. I'm aware that this has been suggested many times before, but the question is: "Does this version work?" And that's why we have a comment section, please entertain the discussion!
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:39 am

why does part of it need to be an day ability?

just have one column where you can only select dead people

and the other is people who are alive allow two picks max there is no need for it to be day ability

It's a post-mortem Lookout. The question is: "Does a post-mortem Lookout work?" and "Is this version balanced?" And that's why we have a comment section, please entertain the discussion!



of it does goose........

this role is incredibly OP

lets say the two people you pick didn't visit the person the serial killer killed well its bad you didn't find the sk but now you know two people who cant be SK its a super sheriff that can check two people each night

the fact it can use the same body multiple times is so OP

if mafia and SK every end up attacking the same person you can check for both mafia and SK at same time twice a night

also

if it ever catches a person visiting someone from a dead body and if that person's will does not match that they visited that person that night they are instantly outed as evil

this role can also check towns wills if a town happens to say they visited a person the night that the person died and they claim to be town you can check that and see if they did (an evil would lie and say they didn't visit the dead person to not look susp so if the will matches they are pretty much confirmed town)

this role can out evils claiming roles that cant visit like surv or meduim ret or pyshcic if it sees them visit a dead person

this role can confirm who the vig if they shot an evil its useful info to have and claim they are the vig

there are prolly some other OP aspects of the role i cant think of

and a better name you're looking for this role is Coroner

directly from wiki

A coroner is a person whose standard role is to confirm and certify the death of an individual within a jurisdiction. A coroner may also conduct or order an inquest into the manner or cause of death, and investigate or confirm the identity of an unknown person who has been found dead within the coroner's jurisdiction.


yea this role sounds cool but balancing being a LO for all ready dead people is so hard to do i'm not sure its possible

==================================================

possible nerfs to this role (pick one or both this role is mad strong)

can only examine a dead once
can only check one person a night instead of two


edit i may of missed can only check a body once or you edited that in either way it's good change / thing to have
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:22 pm

why does part of it need to be an day ability? It makes it so that you don't have 3 things to pick from all on one night, it's a lot and messy, it has no effect on gameplay really

just have one column where you can only select dead people But then how would selecting a third person to replace one work? It's just a little messy, though its a very small mess

and the other is people who are alive allow two picks max there is no need for it to be day ability It would work fine, and all the same, just messier

It's a post-mortem Lookout. The question is: "Does a post-mortem Lookout work?" and "Is this version balanced?" And that's why we have a comment section, please entertain the discussion!



of it does goose........

this role is incredibly OP No, I was thinking weak

lets say the two people you pick didn't visit the person the serial killer killed well its bad you didn't find the sk but now you know two people who cant be SK its a super sheriff that can check two people each night Well first ask them to claim and give a will, if they make the correct will saying they visited, then Bob's your uncle. If not, well you found an sk

the fact it can use the same body multiple times is so OP Can't* It can't use the same body multiple times. Each body is 1 use

if mafia and SK every end up attacking the same person you can check for both mafia and SK at same time twice a night True, but it's a lot less op than you are thinking right now because it is one use

also ok

if it ever catches a person visiting someone from a dead body and if that person's will does not match that they visited that person that night they are instantly outed as evil Exactly, that's what makes it like a Lookout. Except it can't protect Mayor as well... so a balanced Lookout?

this role can also check towns wills if a town happens to say they visited a person the night that the person died and they claim to be town you can check that and see if they did (an evil would lie and say they didn't visit the dead person to not look susp so if the will matches they are pretty much confirmed town) Same interaction with Lookout and Tracker, excpet you search before they claim a will and when they do you cal them out, rather than calling them out the next day

this role can out evils claiming roles that cant visit like surv or meduim ret or pyshcic if it sees them visit a dead person You cant see somebody visit a dead player,
you csn only see them visit the player the night they were killed(meaning they were alive when being targetted)


this role can confirm who the vig if they shot an evil its useful info to have and claim they are the vig That is true, so can Tracker and Lookout

there are prolly some other OP aspects of the role i cant think of xD Thanks?

and a better name you're looking for this role is Coroner

directly from wiki

A coroner is a person whose standard role is to confirm and certify the death of an individual within a jurisdiction. A coroner may also conduct or order an inquest into the manner or cause of death, and investigate or confirm the identity of an unknown person who has been found dead within the coroner's jurisdiction.


Quote from google dictionary of Pathologist:
a scientist who studies the causes and effects of diseases, especially one who examines laboratory samples of body tissue for diagnostic or forensic purposes.

Still makes sense, but Coroner works as well. Didn't want to name it that though as it is more commonly used


yea this role sounds cool but balancing being a LO for all ready dead people is so hard to do i'm not sure its possible

==================================================

possible nerfs to this role (pick one or both this role is mad strong)

can only examine a dead once Part of the role, glad you agree it works
can only check one person a night instead of two I think it is a lot harder to guess somebody before day 4 or so when the game is likely being doomed already than you think it is. The first 2 nights will likely just be guessing based off of basic scumreads or quiet people


edit i may of missed can only check a body once or you edited that in either way it's good change / thing to have Missed it, thanks for the feedback though. But I have a belief that there are 2 parts to a good role. 1, it needs to have good mechanics. If it has bad mechanics, it will never work. 2, it needs to be balanced. If it is not balanced it could be buffed/nerfed into being balanced. The question is if the role has good mechanics, because if it does then it can be a good role.
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:41 pm

you use as Lookout and tracker as being able to do this, the problem is they need to pick the person the exact night it happens

this role doesn't need to pick any night it can do it whenever it wants with no limit on time between the death and when you check the body

this role will excel at finding fake wills get an evil on stand ask for will lets say they claim to be sheriff check who they claimed to have visited on a night someone died if they didnt = dead

if in their fake will they don't have any nights they visited someone the night they died that in itself is susp

usually throughout a game you end visiting at least one person the night they die very easily

evils will almost always lie who they visited while towns won't in their wills so if you see a difference they visited who they didn't it's game over



basicly you don't wanna waste bodies early on just on hunches you wait till people have to show wills then check the bodies

this role is basically a super sheriff who can check people twice a night with mafia killing / nk cause even it doesn't find a person that visited it eliminates that they cant be a killer

late game when theres 5-7 people alive this role will be OP since theres much less people to guess on and by that time you have eliminated some people already that they cant be a killer

this role is somewhat balanced early game because theres so many people to check but it will wait till mid game when people reveal wills on stand then use its ability this the type of role who doesn't want blindly waste a body so its better to nothing and get info first

======================================================

the checking two people a night part makes this role to strong and sheriff like i would change it to one person and maybe you can use a body twice
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby BigDaddyBigMac1 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:28 am

I think this works! Because let's say you investigate the dead medium, and check the living Godfather. He will show up as not visiting (if mafioso killed)but that doesn't mean he is confirmed town. Also you could investigate the dead medium, but have the sheriff be the visiting role so you ask him for his role and if it is inconsistent with your findings he's evil! This isn't op. It's not a guarantee to confirm town. 10/10 role. Click a dead member then a living member is a great investigative role.

If you're alive by the end of the game then that's not OP. It's similar to an investigator at the end of the game, it can easily find an evil role simply because you were able to survive, that's the evils fault. It can be powerful if played correctly just like any other role. It can't easily fine evils, it can find if the person visited, can be a sheriff that investigated the same night he died so it's limited alot.
Last edited by BS4125 on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Gooose26 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:30 pm

Mystoc wrote:you use as Lookout and tracker as being able to do this, the problem is they need to pick the person the exact night it happens

Yes, as the Pathologist you need to pick it the exact following night to be able to do this, and if you fail you don't really earn any information unlike Lookout and Tracker.

this role doesn't need to pick any night it can do it whenever it wants with no limit on time between the death and when you check the body

It can do it whenever but it is limited to dead players, and since you can do anything night 1 you will only be able to average just 5 checks in a normal game of Tos that is 6 days long. This role is a lot more comparable to Sheriff, as it would be a good exe claim, gets good information only on the right people, and on the wrong people gets very little useful evidence

this role will excel at finding fake wills get an evil on stand ask for will lets say they claim to be sheriff check who they claimed to have visited on a night someone died if they didnt = dead

I know it is great right? That was a large reason as to why this will works, although it is extremely ineffective at this compared to Lookout and Tracker, but as an evil, with this role as a possibility in-game, it is very simple to not make a fake will targeting who you attacked, wait for the TI's to die or to be confirmed/partially confirmed

if in their fake will they don't have any nights they visited someone the night they died that in itself is susp

Again this is still very inefficient

usually throughout a game you end visiting at least one person the night they die very easily

Where did you get this statistic? I do not believe you on a personal level in which I feel that I usually never visited a killed player if I don't kill. I'm disregarding this quote unless you have a proper citation

evils will almost always lie who they visited while towns won't in their wills so if you see a difference they visited who they didn't it's game over

Just like Lookout and Tracker, except less efficient again.

basicly you don't wanna waste bodies early on just on hunches you wait till people have to show wills then check the bodies

So your game plan here is to wait until night 3 or 4 to start investigating? Night 4 or 5 you find something, but by that time the waste of no investigation means that you have likely lost majority.

this role is basically a super sheriff who can check people twice a night with mafia killing / nk cause even it doesn't find a person that visited it eliminates that they cant be a killer

Except it cant find Disguiser, Framer, Blackmailer, Consort, Godfather or Consigliere, but yea sure it's a super killer. And remember, there can be only at most 2 evil killers per game, when there is 6 evils to catch, you have 1/3rd at your exposure.

late game when theres 5-7 people alive this role will be OP since theres much less people to guess on and by that time you have eliminated some people already that they cant be a killer

5-7 people alive is not a lot when you have lost majority do to doing little in the early game. Whenever you play Investigator and survive to the end, it really becomes is there a mjaority or not, because the end game you'll be 90% informed when comparing your good information with the good information of the dead next to the sorta good information you can half trust from the living.

this role is somewhat balanced early game because theres so many people to check but it will wait till mid game when people reveal wills on stand then use its ability this the type of role who doesn't want blindly waste a body so its better to nothing and get info first

Early game ends what? Day 3? You have investigated 4 people on 2 subjects, 4 of them might be evil.

======================================================

the checking two people a night part makes this role to strong and sheriff like i would change it to one person and maybe you can use a body twice

One person? That is underpowered, way too underpowered. I'm curious on what you'll say to my earlier comments

Also sorry for the late response

-------

BigDaddyBigMac1 wrote:I think this works! Because let's say you investigate the dead medium, and check the living Godfather. He will show up as not visiting (if mafioso killed)but that doesn't mean he is confirmed town. Also you could investigate the dead medium, but have the sheriff be the visiting role so you ask him for his role and if it is inconsistent with your findings he's evil! This isn't op. It's not a guarantee to confirm town. 10/10 role. Click a dead member then a living member is a great investigative role.

If you're alive by the end of the game then that's not OP. It's similar to an investigator at the end of the game, it can easily find an evil role simply because you were able to survive, that's the evils fault. It can be powerful if played correctly just like any other role. It can't easily fine evils, it can find if the person visited, can be a sheriff that investigated the same night he died so it's limited alot.

I agree completely, if anything I was afraid the role might be underpowered. I'm glad you liked it, it is a rework of a previous role in TG though, so it wasn't entirely my role but it's still very unique.
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby oOYuuArtSuiOo » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:46 am

[quote="Gooose26"]Role Name:
Pathologist

Summary:
You are an investigator specialized in investigating dead bodies.

Stats:
Attack: None
Defense: None
Priority: Under Investigator (Not sure where)

Role Alignment:
Town (Investigative)

Abilities:
- Every day may choose a dead body to investigate
What? It says EVERY day choose a dead body to investigate but on the attributes it says may only check a dead body ONCE.
- Every night may trace 2 players
What do you mean about 'trace'? Give more information about these kinds of abilities.

Attributes:
- You will know if either of your targets visited the dead player the night of his death
Like a Lookout.
- May only check a dead body once
Makes this role useless.
[/spoiler]

Frankly, this is just a nerfed Lookout. Firstly, you need to improve your specifications. Second, this role is useless if no one dies. Thirdly, it just sucks.
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:43 am

You can check a body every day, but it can only happen once for each body, meaning that its a 1-use ability for each body, you cant do anything day 1 cuz no dead, then the rest of the game you should have plenty of bodies.

It's like a Lookout but it works every day, not just the day the player visits. Like if you check the mafioso on a mafia-killed player 2 days ago, you will be told that he visited your target.

Trace means to track. Track means to follow. Its just syntax that means you will choose 2 people and be told whether they visited the body on the day of its death or not.

I am sure my specifications are fine, I think that's on your reading, not my writing.
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby oOYuuArtSuiOo » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:56 am

Gooose26 wrote:You can check a body every day, but it can only happen once for each body, meaning that its a 1-use ability for each body, you cant do anything day 1 cuz no dead, then the rest of the game you should have plenty of bodies.

It's like a Lookout but it works every day, not just the day the player visits. Like if you check the mafioso on a mafia-killed player 2 days ago, you will be told that he visited your target.

Trace means to track. Track means to follow. Its just syntax that means you will choose 2 people and be told whether they visited the body on the day of its death or not.

I am sure my specifications are fine, I think that's on your reading, not my writing.


It's still a Lookout. Not to mention it's also like Tracker because you 'track' your 2 targets to be told whether or not they visitef on the day of the death of the body.

This is technically a nerf for the Lookout. Lookout can know if Mafia visited their target because they see them visit them.

My case still stands.
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:40 pm

Lookout does not have the ability to automatically guess who will be attacked every time they perform an action, this role can. That's the balancing factor. Tracker only gets 1 person to track. That's the balancing factor.
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby MaskedPokerFace » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:28 pm

does not look like a nerfed sheriff and spy?
i mean it is too hard to detect a mafia member
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Gooose26 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:27 am

MaskedPokerFace wrote:does not look like a nerfed sheriff and spy?
i mean it is too hard to detect a mafia member

So you think that is underpowered? What would you suggest as a buff? And do you think that there are any mechanical errors?

I do think that this is a bit more underpowered than perfect, but I think its a very small amount compared to Sheriff and Tracker.
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby MaskedPokerFace » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:34 am

Gooose26 wrote:
MaskedPokerFace wrote:does not look like a nerfed sheriff and spy?
i mean it is too hard to detect a mafia member

So you think that is underpowered? What would you suggest as a buff? And do you think that there are any mechanical errors?

I do think that this is a bit more underpowered than perfect, but I think its a very small amount compared to Sheriff and Tracker.

i see what you meant but as a ti you have to wait someone to die and after someone died you are checking who has visited dead one.
this made 2 nights to invest someone at moon ,is this fast result for a ti? and there is already medium role who can get infos from spies and spies already can see who was visited by bad roles.. i wish to suggest something but i see this roles only makes town powerless about investigative.
i wanted a bit clear what i meant
at night 1- waiting someone to die: at day you are investing
at night 2 :tracing 2 target and it is not clear who killed dead body
it costs 2 nights for a result
are you sure will you survive at day 2 or day 3?
this role can be support role not investigative
edited:You can make it alternative psychic
you invest a body at day and it gives you 3 name who never visit this dead body at night
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Gooose26 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:50 am

This is clearly not a support role, I will say that. All it does is find incriminating information, which is the pinnacle of Town (Investigative), but for your other claims...

That is true, you cannot do anything night 1, but that is it and it isn't that bad. There's not much you can do when you die early, Sheriff has basically no information unless he gets lucky, usually your targets will die off naturally, any information you find and leave in your will helps the evils make fakeclaims better. This role exceeds in the middle game, or the area right before losing majority but not before you are faced with losing it, as the targets left can be narrowed down by scumreading and you can find an evil per night at that time.

Preparing to die before day 2 or day 3 is not a good strategy, that means you are just a martyr that took the hit so the rest of your townies can play to the middle/late game. Don't think that you have to do amazing, somebody has to take the hit and that somebody won't be very useful with really any town role outside of the whole Jailor/Escort on Serial Killer deal. You do not need to plan to be that guy.

And I do want to make sure you understand, this role does not work every full moon, it works every night, technically it could visit night 1 but its just that there are no targets, like how Medium still has the ability to speak night 1 to the dead, there are just no dead. I wanted to make sure that was clear as it didn't seem clear in your argument.
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby MaskedPokerFace » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:24 am

Gooose26 wrote:This is clearly not a support role, I will say that. All it does is find incriminating information, which is the pinnacle of Town (Investigative), but for your other claims...

That is true, you cannot do anything night 1, but that is it and it isn't that bad. There's not much you can do when you die early, Sheriff has basically no information unless he gets lucky, usually your targets will die off naturally, any information you find and leave in your will helps the evils make fakeclaims better. This role exceeds in the middle game, or the area right before losing majority but not before you are faced with losing it, as the targets left can be narrowed down by scumreading and you can find an evil per night at that time.

Preparing to die before day 2 or day 3 is not a good strategy, that means you are just a martyr that took the hit so the rest of your townies can play to the middle/late game. Don't think that you have to do amazing, somebody has to take the hit and that somebody won't be very useful with really any town role outside of the whole Jailor/Escort on Serial Killer deal. You do not need to plan to be that guy.

And I do want to make sure you understand, this role does not work every full moon, it works every night, technically it could visit night 1 but its just that there are no targets, like how Medium still has the ability to speak night 1 to the dead, there are just no dead. I wanted to make sure that was clear as it didn't seem clear in your argument.

no i clearly see what you meant
day 1 hello day
night 1 you have to wait for someone's body non moon
day 2 you selected a body
night 2 "moon" you have got a vision which includes 2 names: at least 1 must be evil because they were killed by evil or evils but sametime mafioso will kill next target
day 3 you selected next body but what if none died?? and how will you win a town proof as an TI? isnt a bit late to claim your role and to give a trust?
night 3 you have got 2 name vision or you needed to wait next day that costs you extra nights, what if there is an arsonist??
day 4 ?? i think its process works slow if i dont misunderstood about tracing

and btw NK roles are hard to win..
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Gooose26 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:35 am

MaskedPokerFace wrote:no i clearly see what you meant
day 1 hello day
night 1 you have to wait for someone's body non moon
day 2 you selected a body
night 2 "moon" you have got a vision which includes 2 names: at least 1 must be evil because they were killed by evil or evils but sametime mafioso will kill next target
day 3 you selected next body but what if none died?? and how will you win a town proof as an TI? isnt a bit late to claim your role and to give a trust?
night 3 you have got 2 name vision or you needed to wait next day that costs you extra nights, what if there is an arsonist??
day 4 ?? i think its process works slow if i dont misunderstood about tracing

and btw NK roles are hard to win..

If no one died, that is a win for the town. It's basically, what if the game is just stalled for a day so the town can get informed?

The idea of a balanced game means that there is no confirmability, no matter what you do there should always be a second guess or a reason not to be trusted. When claiming Pathologist, the doubt is how easy your will is to create as Pathologist likely has no information until later in the game. This is a positive factor to the role, something that all town roles should be like. You don't just get names, by the way, you pick who you think it is and you are told if either of the 2 people that you picked visited, that's it.

You do have a point about arsonist, but you could preoccupy yourself with mafia who kills every night anyway, then worry about the Arso when the mafia is gone
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby MaskedPokerFace » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:44 am

Gooose26 wrote:
MaskedPokerFace wrote:no i clearly see what you meant
day 1 hello day
night 1 you have to wait for someone's body non moon
day 2 you selected a body
night 2 "moon" you have got a vision which includes 2 names: at least 1 must be evil because they were killed by evil or evils but sametime mafioso will kill next target
day 3 you selected next body but what if none died?? and how will you win a town proof as an TI? isnt a bit late to claim your role and to give a trust?
night 3 you have got 2 name vision or you needed to wait next day that costs you extra nights, what if there is an arsonist??
day 4 ?? i think its process works slow if i dont misunderstood about tracing

and btw NK roles are hard to win..

If no one died, that is a win for the town. It's basically, what if the game is just stalled for a day so the town can get informed?

The idea of a balanced game means that there is no confirmability, no matter what you do there should always be a second guess or a reason not to be trusted. When claiming Pathologist, the doubt is how easy your will is to create as Pathologist likely has no information until later in the game. This is a positive factor to the role, something that all town roles should be like. You don't just get names, by the way, you pick who you think it is and you are told if either of the 2 people that you picked visited, that's it.

You do have a point about arsonist, but you could preoccupy yourself with mafia who kills every night anyway, then worry about the Arso when the mafia is gone

bte i didnt tell role is bad, i like idea but problem is latency,ti alignment and current tis dont like prepear a will even they were sheriif or speciall spies. they are a bit lazy.. and you have forget about forgers,medusas,janitors, this roles will made your long investigative days wasted
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby oOYuuArtSuiOo » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:26 am

Gooose26 wrote:Lookout does not have the ability to automatically guess who will be attacked every time they perform an action, this role can. That's the balancing factor. Tracker only gets 1 person to track. That's the balancing factor.


Lokoout does NOT guess who will be attack but ASSUME. They watch over those players with attractive names, talking players, accusing players, complaining ones and even the quiet ones. If there was a Lookout player who GUESSES their next target is a noob. NO one GUESSES but ASSUMES.

That is NOT a balancing factor.

Also, tracking your target to see if they visited your dead target is just useless. That's the reason WHY Medium is in the game. To know who they last visited and their info.

My case still stands.
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Shilster wrote:Isn't this just a better Janitor? It can totally disable people, and yeah, it nerfs lynching. People who can't vote (especially Town members) are useless to their team.

YuuArtSui explained it pretty well.

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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby MaskedPokerFace » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:34 am

oOYuuArtSuiOo wrote:
Gooose26 wrote:Lookout does not have the ability to automatically guess who will be attacked every time they perform an action, this role can. That's the balancing factor. Tracker only gets 1 person to track. That's the balancing factor.


Lokoout does NOT guess who will be attack but ASSUME. They watch over those players with attractive names, talking players, accusing players, complaining ones and even the quiet ones. If there was a Lookout player who GUESSES their next target is a noob. NO one GUESSES but ASSUMES.

That is NOT a balancing factor.

Also, tracking your target to see if they visited your dead target is just useless. That's the reason WHY Medium is in the game. To know who they last visited and their info.

My case still stands.

no idont agree you because now there is a coven dlc,this role can be for Coven DLC.Also investigating on a body for a clue is better than looking 13 people with visit and die risk
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Gooose26 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:53 pm

MaskedPokerFace wrote:bte i didnt tell role is bad, i like idea but problem is latency,ti alignment and current tis dont like prepear a will even they were sheriif or speciall spies. they are a bit lazy.. and you have forget about forgers,medusas,janitors, this roles will made your long investigative days wasted

If you are a TI and don't make a will, you are a nub. In ranked, TI's will make a will 95% of the time. Sure, a couple new players will sneak in and be confused, but in general that is not the meta. Also, what have I forgotten about these roles? I will say that this role is not made for Coven, as I feel that the entirety of the Coven DLC is pretty bad, but rather for the normal Ranked, or more likely TG.

oOYuuArtSuiOo wrote:Lokoout does NOT guess who will be attack but ASSUME. They watch over those players with attractive names, talking players, accusing players, complaining ones and even the quiet ones. If there was a Lookout player who GUESSES their next target is a noob. NO one GUESSES but ASSUMES.

That is NOT a balancing factor.

Also, tracking your target to see if they visited your dead target is just useless. That's the reason WHY Medium is in the game. To know who they last visited and their info.

My case still stands.

Yes, but Lookout wants to find evils. So they will try to assume where they visit. This isn't very far off of the Pathologist. The Pathologist is given who was attacked, but he has to INFER who attacked him, it's basically in reverse. When Lookout is based on protecting those that they have scumread to be good, Pathologist scumreads for evils. I thnk you meant to use the word infer though, assuming isn't much better than guessing. Infering requires scumreading. Tracking your target will tell you who attacked your target if you scumread well enough.
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Mystoc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:10 pm

very important question do you visit the two people who you check to see if they visited the dead person the night that person died?

=================================================================

this role is very hard to balance its very weak early game and very strong mid to late game

because late game the chances you pick the right person and match them to killer is very high

the problem with this role is its sheriff + LO for killing roles in one role but it can check two people not just one each night

also since you are visiting a dead body you don't need to fear WW vet ambusher or medusa

here's an in game example of why this role is so strong

=======================================================

n1 you have no dead bodies to check, sk killsjohn

n2 you check johns body, and see if mary or giles they didn't visit the person they are no longer sk (you cleared them of being sk for the rest of the game)
-yes sheriff does the same thing in the same amount times but just over two nights but from now you get +1 amount checks on people each night since you will have a new dead body to check each night

sheriff checks = 2
pathol checks = 2

n3 sam dies to sk. you check his body and find martha and Fred didnt visit them they cant be sk

sheriff checks = 3
pathol checks = 4

do you see the problem each new night you gain one check on sherrif

yes you cant find non killer mafia and sheriff that's a difference and a good weakness to have

the problem is this isn't really a LO like you say it is
-it's another form of sheriff who cant be fooled by framer

it basically clears people of being a killer it doesn't really do something like LO at all

im gonna compare this sheriff not LO because its way more like sheriff then LO IMO

======================================================

this role has its weaknesses
-cant find evils who dont kill
-weak early game

strengths
more checks then sheriff has
-isn't fooled by famer
-can find godfather if hes does the kill directly
-can find coven roles with necro if they killed sherrif cant
-gets way stronger late game

but to its not LO just a weird version of sheriff that can check two people each night

i'm not saying its OP im saying it isn't like LO at all it may be balanced i'm not sure, it's very similar to sheriff, i don't like or dislike this idea its well throughout and could definitely work if redefined a bit
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Re: Pathologist (Town Investigative)

Postby Gooose26 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:41 pm

This role checks for 2 killers, yes. Just for 1 body, meaning that essentially you are checking for mafioso/godfather or the NK. You will visit these players when you check them, meaning if your target is an alerted Veteran, you messed up...

The idea here, which I believe to be balanced, is that this role only finds really killers + killer supports(this will find janitor/forger), but cannot find some other roles like Blackmailer, Witch, Framer, Arsonist(this is the only problem I see), etc.

Also, I think it is important to note the power of Investigator in certain times of the game. Investigator is not very strong early game, as there is claimspace, it is very strong midgame when the majority is at its breaking point, and very weak late game because the game is already solved and has no utility. The Pathologist is exactly like this, and I think that is a balanced system. Sure, it can get an early pop like the Lookout, but its uncommon and would be treated like an Executioner or get a killer.

What changes would you suggest?
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Re: Coroner (Town Investigative)

Postby Mystoc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:01 pm

The idea here, which I believe to be balanced, is that this role only finds really killers + killer supports(this will find janitor/forger)


you cant confirm a forger was there some people just have blank wills sometimes, so this role cant find forger

this is a good counter to janitor but i would argue corner being able to find janitor goes against the idea of what janitor does

being able to check janitor kills makes no sense, the whole point of janitor is he gets rid or mutilates the body to the point is so unrecognizable that people don't what role it was

i would nerf this so

it cant check cleaned dead bodies (i mean it makes sense no evidence on a body an janitor disposed of) (maybe to much of a nerf but you have to admit it makes sense)

and so framer can fool this role into think someone visited when they didnt if the Coroner checked them the night they were framed (you should definitely do this one)

====================================================================

-it good this role visits both people it checks that fair since sheriff has to visit too

-another weakness this role has if some reason it runs out bodies to check (mid to late game this is very unlikely to happen ) it cant check people while sherrif can still check people

-another strength i forgot to mention is this role can spot fake wills sometimes if an evil person happened to visit a dead body then has in there will they didnt on that night

==============================================

i still dislike you are comparing this LO its nothing like it, this role clears people of being a killer it doesn't always catch them in the act of doing killing like LO does, its way more like sheriff then LO

===================

i think this role is a different version of sheriff and can definitely work as new role the question is how much stuff does it do better than sheriff currently, ide say its pretty balanced at the moment, consider my nerf ideas though, this definitely needs to be able to be fooled by framer, since sheriff can be

i support the idea of this concept but feel it needs some slight tweaks
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Re: Coroner (Town Investigative)

Postby Gooose26 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:16 pm

Just a simple phrase: "Balance > Lore" I don't think that it should be changed because it just makes sense lore-wise, I don't see what's wrong with finding the Janitor balance-wise. Also, when I say it finds the Forger, I mean that you will see that the Forger visited the body, not that they are Forger. Don't forget that this role can find random players who just visit but are Town, it's not saying "Your target is a killer!", it is just that your target visited. That's why, to me, it is more like Lookout. You don't get a blank, black-white answer of evil or not evil, you are given some side information where you have to imply the meaning, like Lookout

I am glad you think it is pretty much balanced, vote in my poll! xD

What if, when your target is framed the night of tracing, then it will come up as if they visited your target. It would have the same sort of effect that Investigator/Sheriff have when framed, you are incriminated af but there's always that doubt.
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Re: Coroner (Town Investigative)

Postby Mystoc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:32 pm

Gooose26 wrote:Just a simple phrase: "Balance > Lore" I don't think that it should be changed because it just makes sense lore-wise, I don't see what's wrong with finding the Janitor balance-wise. Also, when I say it finds the Forger, I mean that you will see that the Forger visited the body, not that they are Forger. Don't forget that this role can find random players who just visit but are Town, it's not saying "Your target is a killer!", it is just that your target visited. That's why, to me, it is more like Lookout. You don't get a blank, black-white answer of evil or not evil, you are given some side information where you have to imply the meaning, like Lookout

yes but if they didn't visit the night the person died they are cleared 100% of being the killer thats how its like sheriff but can also find GF/ coven with necro if they kill sheriff cant do this,

that is a good point with forger though it can get a false positive they are the killer but still get hanged and found out since they did visit the night the person died



I am glad you think it is pretty much balanced, vote in my poll! xD

What if, when your target is framed the night of tracing, then it will come up as if they visited your target. It would have the same sort of effect that Investigator/Sheriff have when framed, you are incriminated af but there's always that doubt.

yes that what i was thinking of how it would work





=======================================================

another aspect of this role can spott fake wills very well if a person lies and said they didn't visit a person in their will and you know they did on a certain night you can call them out on it, sheriff cant do this,

its very hard to compare two

this is sheriff in the sense it clears people of being killers of they didn't visit
its not that it can 100% find people who are killers

thing is if you found the person visited that night of a death they aren't "confirmed" killer but the roles that evil can fake claim can claim drastically decreases, they cant be any form of TP claim now or they would of saved the person , and they cant be LO now since they woulda revealed who the killer was (really the only safe claim this role has is sheriff and maybe spy sadly)

also this role cant be faked that well has like sheriff can too, cause all it takes is one person saying i visited a person that night your lying

the more i think about the differences between the two the more i like the role because there are clear strengths sheriff has that this role does not and vise versa, and i think their is enough differences in strengths and weaknesses that its fair

================================================

i like the role and would vote to the testing grounds but i dislike you don't have a don't like role option so i'm not voting,

people should be allowed to say they don't like a role, saying don't vote then isn't fair

because the forums doesnt show how many people choose not to vote, and you cant look at the comment ratio to votes because people are much more likely to vote then comment since voting takes way less time

this kinda reminds of some corrupt countries presidential races where you go to vote the but the same dudes name is in all 3 options (if insist on only giving one option there should be only one button to click not two is my point)

-personally i think people should be able to say they don't like a role though in polls, cause it gives the OP a good idea of the role, if the votes are to negative you can always reset the poll and change the role based on feedback, but letting you and others see what people think is good feedback polls are very good tools to OP's
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