Re: The Witness (Neutral Evil)
Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:25 am
by Joacgroso
Spoiler:
I suggested some things. Also, I don't want to be rude, so if I sounded rude in my replies, sorry.
oOYuuArtSuiOo wrote:Joacgroso wrote:oOYuuArtSuiOo wrote:Joacgroso wrote:oOYuuArtSuiOo wrote:Joacgroso wrote:oOYuuArtSuiOo wrote:Joacgroso wrote:Why is this role neutral evil if it can win with town?
Still working in the win conditions and goal. I don't really have to since I'm thinking it should just be NE.
Also, witnessing 4 kills is impossible.
Not so. Refer to the attributes.
How many times have you seen people predicting 4 kills in a game?
Well, as mostly a Doc main, it's a 80% chance for late game, 50% for mid game and 40% for early game to be able to predict who to kill.. Mostly, it depends on the player. This role shows them that they have to guess right or they delay their goal by one more night.
So...... What are you suggesting to change the goal to instead?
Or maybe change it's alignement to neutral benign.
See here, the Witness is hugely evil-sided since it can know who the killer is and the killer will just help the witness get more witnesses just so they wont be revealed.
But maybe I can balance the attributes a bit more. He can also tell the town who the killers are so they don't kill him and he can witness vigilante/jailor kills, while evils would have to waste a night in order to get rid of him. Well, Town would just kill the Witness also since they can still have a chance to side with evils seeing the fact as they can give a buff. How many times have you seen Witch siding with Town then just getting hanged right after? Not to mention the evils wouldn't like that the Witness is siding with Town so they'd want to kill the Witness. Making you lose instantly. Lynching the witness would be pointless because he wouldn't be able to side with evils once he reveals. Everyone who whispered to him would be sus af. And there is a huge difference between witches and witnesses: Witches can't win with town. Witnesses can. Also, mafia don't have to kill witnesses because they are not town, so they wouldn't waste a kill on a neutral.
The main problem is that this role wouldn't affect the game at all.Hmm.... I wonder why it's able to know who the killer is and is undetected by the Lookout, avoid Veteran aletts and WW mauls... (This is totally not here). Ok. That doesn't affect the game at all. What's the point of knowing who the killer is if you want to side with him? The only thing he would do is whisper to the killer to witness more kills, so if one of them dies then the other will be lynched. And if he tries to whisper to a NK and there is a bmer ingame, then the NK auto loses. And having astral visits doesn't make witnesses affect the game at all, unless they decide to reveal the killers and side with town.
Well, that's why the Witness dosn't get any defense. That's in-order to do so that the Witness should be able to find the killer more quicker.Sorry, I don't understand. What has being able to be killed and lose n1 to do with finding killers quickier? Not to mention there might be a Doc or BG protecting you. That depends of your fakeclaim. They would usually protect the jailor or any person who claimed a TPower role. Also, being protected n1 is a matter of luck. The Witness has no defense because their point is to give defense and if they think the killer will kill them, they would just side with Town, Vig and Jailor can still help on your goal. You just said they were evil sided and town would lynch them if they claim. And siding with town won't prevent them for dying either. And the point of whispering to someone is very risky.How are they supposed to guess 4 kills without whispering with the killer? The only thing that can make a Witness side with the killer is if they spam-vote the killer or if they whisper a very "strange" whisper seeing if there is a bmer in game. And getting the fact that every day, the killer would say who he would kill next just so that they would get a buff. That would make the Witness even more sus aswell as who they were whispering with. That's why I said they don't affect the game at all. They know who the killer is, but can't do anything about him except outing him in his last will if they die.WHAT CAN YOU SUGGEST THEN?--ahem-- Other than that, is there any way you can suggest to change it? You are the one suggesting the role, not me. You asked for feedback, so I told you what I think might be flaws. Maybe I'm wrong and these are not flaws, or maybe I'm right. But it's not my job to fix them if I have no better ideas. Honestly, the only things I can think are changing it's goal to "survive to see the town lose the game", giving them an autovest only for night 1, and making them only buff evils roles if they succesfully witness a kill. I'm not sure about astral visits, but I have no better ideas. Also, on a side note,
I think you should change the name of the role. "Witness" isn't evil enough in my opinion. I have no better ideas through. And something more: I think witnesses shouldn't have astral visits, since they are already detection immune. If they are caught by a smart lookout, it's their fault anyway.
It would be like a survivor.
Well, it can't defend itself seeing as the fact it can know who the killer is. Being granted 3 vests and being able to know who the killer is....... No.
And, Survivor can't know who is the killer unless they reveal themselves. Since witness's goal is to witness 4 kills, that means that he auto losses if he dies in nights 1, 2, or 3. And with survivor I meant kingmaker who doesn't affect the game at all. Witnesses should have a scum autovest, just like witches. Maybe they should be able to watch themselves once if they still have the autovest.
The Witness can die in nights 1, 2 or 3. But by then, they would have already found the killer and the chances being killed in a 15-player game is in night 1,2 or 3, especially with a Townie confirming others would make you an unlikely target. But I do agree with the scum autovest tho. Ill consider that. Kills in night 1, and sometimes 2, are a matter of luck.
And how many times have you seen people correctly guessing a kill in the first 3 nights? This don't usually happens, especially if mafia isn't stupid and goes for obvious targets. That goes on the luck of the player, then. Roles that are based on luck are bad ideas, especially if they are not NC. Since this role would be able to spawn in ranked, it shouldn't be luck-based (yes, I know that jesters can also die n1 and lose, but I think they shouldn't spawn in ranked anyway, and they should have basic defense for night 1 only. Amnesiacs too).
His ability is to passive to mess with town,
Any role that is a killing role specifically.
but it wouldn't work as NB because it would be too hard. Guessing 4 kills is impossible, especially if you have no defense at night.
Well, you can technically get 2 witnesses in 1 night by visiting a Lookout protected by a Bodyguard and attacked by a Mafioso. Unlikely af. Very likely in late game. Only if mafia is dumb enough to go for an obviously protected person. At that point the bg should have claimed if he was rt. And if he wasn't, attacking an obvious target would be suicidal. Also, surviving until lategame as evil, isn't that easy. Well, with the buff for the killing roles, it would be easy since the evil-killing roles can teak up and use theWitness as a buff. But, nonetheless, what can you suggest? Other than this useless argument. Also, if evils get the astral buff, then they will be bodyguard-immune, so witnessing this would be really hard in late game. And just because I don't have better ideas it doesn't mean that my argument is invalid.
That results to 2 deaths and since you were watching Lookout, you get 2 witnesses. Also goes for Vet and WW. You said that if he visits someone who dies to vet, it will count as a witness, so if they visit the vet they won't witness anything. If the Vet was vet-baiting, they would be able to witness something.Not to mention you can know who the Jailor is if they execute the target you were watching. I thought all visits failed on jailed targets.
But if he finds the jailor, he can just tell him who to execute and get other 2 witnesses. The visits will fail on a JAILED target. But if it's an EXECUTE, it's successful. I didn't know that. So if a janitor cleans an executed person, he will be cleaned? I'm trying to implement a role that can affect a jailed person. Mafia and Evils aren't the same from their abilities. I'm also going for that because, lore-wise, the Witness can see the one who is jailed if they try to visit that person and, common sense, the Witness can see the jailed to be executed. And telling the Jailor who to execute can make the NK kill you instead Not if you whisper to the jailor or even the Jailor will execute you since your still Evil If they prefer wasting a kill on a Ne instead of killing a killer, then it's their problem.. Please read the attributes again. I can only see "Each night choose a player to gossip with". Read again. I did it. The only thing I don't like is that this role hardcounters lookouts. If TP are not roleblocked if they visits witness's target (btw, what about transporters?), I think lookouts shouldn't be roleblocked either. And IMO witnesses shouldn¡t have astral visits.
BTW, I changed the alignment to Evil.
Responses to this Color.
Thanks for your feedback!This is a very old post of mine.
The main problem with this role is that is NE but can win with town. NEs are supposed to be unable to harm town (jesters should be NB and exes are a bad NE, although I love playing as them). In my opinion, a better goal for witnesses would be "Survive to see the town lose the game", so they can't side with town.
Guess I'll just create a poll for that then. Cool
This is becoming a really fruitless argument. I am getting irritated. Atleast give some suggestions on how to change something other than backfiring it. Thank you.
I suggested some things. Also, I don't want to be rude, so if I sounded rude in my replies, sorry.