Siren (Neutral Killing)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Please leave feedback on the poll and comment why you feel this way

Role is Weak!
0
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Role is Balanced!
6
75%
Role is Strong!
2
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Total votes : 8

Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:06 pm

an easy fix to this though is enthralled victims cant whisper or be be whispered too i may add this if needed (cause any ally could just as easily whisper to an enthralled friend who to kill if was changed that they couldn't whisper)

you are right whispering who you will kill to any a trusted friend/ally is a good a counter to this role but it is still an he said she said situation so this added buff idea may not be needed
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:35 pm

based on feedback everything gave me i have decided to buff the role so it can cover for it being attacked better (enthralled could have whispered behind its back and planned to attack you if you didn't know this you cant use the sirens defense ability has an excuse to why you're immune to an enthralleds attack)

and it's just an all around small buff to in general so the buff is

enthralled can no longer whisper or be whispered too
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:57 pm

Mystoc wrote:based on feedback everything gave me i have decided to buff the role so it can cover for it being attacked better (enthralled could have whispered behind its back and planned to attack you if you didn't know this you cant use the sirens defense ability has an excuse to why you're immune to an enthralleds attack)

and it's just an all around small buff to in general so the buff is

enthralled can no longer whisper or be whispered too

I didn't understand it completely, so the town knows which player is enthralled?
Also this role should be NC since it causes total chaos with its killings and captives and it completely changes the game.
For example you thrill a Forger and let him out to kill.
The Forger still has his goal, but now Mafia can literally choose to kill 2 people at night.
This role seems kind of unbalanced for a NK role, but these are just my thoughts.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:40 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:
Mystoc wrote:based on feedback everything gave me i have decided to buff the role so it can cover for it being attacked better (enthralled could have whispered behind its back and planned to attack you if you didn't know this you cant use the sirens defense ability has an excuse to why you're immune to an enthralleds attack)

and it's just an all around small buff to in general so the buff is

enthralled can no longer whisper or be whispered too

I didn't understand it completely, so the town knows which player is enthralled?
Also this role should be NC since it causes total chaos with its killings and captives and it completely changes the game.
For example you thrill a Forger and let him out to kill.
The Forger still has his goal, but now Mafia can literally choose to kill 2 people at night.
This role seems kind of unbalanced for a NK role, but these are just my thoughts.



yes everyone knows who the enthralled player is since they were kidnapped for day and then released (read notifications section it explains it pretty well) mafia can have two kills yes butt town may just hang the enthralled mafia player if they keep trying to kill obv town targets or to simply take away some sirens kills per night its a fine line of having extra kills but pissing off town will get you hanged even they believe your town they won't like if you keep killing town and not obv mafia targets so they may just hang you

siren doesn't care if mafia or town get extra kills though they are both her enemy them killing each other and ignoring finding her is good for the siren

also killing her takes away towns and mafias extra kills so the may want keep her in the game till end so they keep extra kills it's a weird relationship town and mafia like having extra kills but at the same time each time they kill each other they are helping the siren win so the must kill her the question is of when and if they know who she is

i agree the role also fits the NC alignment as well as the NK alignment there is a poll on this please leave feedback on it

speaking of polls 5 people have voted too strong and not told me why they think this this is not helpful at all
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:31 pm

This role can't be balanced correctly, because either the Town or the Mafia is going to have an advantage since if you make a smart Town / Mafia kill, they can just start killing suspicious people however they like. This can end up for example a thrilles Medium killing multiple evils in a row. This role is not directly OP, but it makes other factions OP. Why isn't there a choice to vote if thus role is balanced or not? This is just my feedback. I feel like this role would need some balancing, before it going to the TG.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:45 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:This role can't be balanced correctly, because either the Town or the Mafia is going to have an advantage since if you make a smart Town / Mafia kill, they can just start killing suspicious people however they like. This can end up for example a thrilles Medium killing multiple evils in a row. This role is not directly OP, but it makes other factions OP. Why isn't there a choice to vote if thus role is balanced or not? This is just my feedback. I feel like this role would need some balancing, before it going to the TG.


or since the town knows who the enthralled person is mafia can kill them during the night
town can hang them during the day

if the person is obv having bias towards a certain side they will be killed

no side will have a clear advantage because they can be killed at any time since others know who they are

a killer is only made every even night and then can only kill every even night after that it isn't an every night thing

so by night 6 there would be only 3 killers ( only if all three enthralled people lived to n6 very unlikely) - siren since NK is isn't killing so really only 2 extra killers but only

these people can killed at any time keep in mind if the fail to kill just once they die

there is a poll though to vote if its balanced or not you're one the few people to explain why you think the role is to strong sadly though
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Aviel » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:41 am

Personally this role is very confusing, and would be hard to learn, but eh.

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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:42 am

Aviel wrote:Personally this role is very confusing, and would be hard to learn, but eh.

/support

Uhm, bump much?
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:06 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
Aviel wrote:Personally this role is very confusing, and would be hard to learn, but eh.

i give a night by night example of how the role works why don't you read that?

/support

Uhm, bump much?



dude im the most active person on these forums its not a necro bump any role of mine you comment on will get responded too

a necro bump is commenting on an old thread when you don't know if the OP is active im always active on these forums
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Submitted to TG!)

Postby Mystoc » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:56 am

submitted to TG for anyone who has no idea what the role does cause its very wordy

read the in game example section, it explains perfectly how the role would work
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Submitted to TG!)

Postby BasicFourLife » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:57 pm

Why isn’t there more options to vote for? I feel like none of the options express my opinion.
RNG is never good for any strategy based game. Please learn the definition of what that means, especially if you're one of the people constantly defending it.

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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Submitted to TG!)

Postby cupcakeaj2 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:51 pm

Mystoc wrote:submitted to TG for anyone who has no idea what the role does cause its very wordy

read the in game example section, it explains perfectly how the role would work


You might want to submit again since it's not on the list yet.
Just in case.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Submitted to TG!)

Postby Mystoc » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:44 pm

maybe mods didn't see it yea who knows, will do
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby ThotDesolator » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:28 pm

If the siren makes the captive do whatever she wants, shouldn't she choose who to kill?
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:07 pm

ThotDesolator wrote:If the siren makes the captive do whatever she wants, shouldn't she choose who to kill?


if it was only one person sure but once she as multiple people enthralled it would be to hard to direct her singing at different people every other night

also, lore is way less important then balance if the siren could do this it would OP
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby sunbird1002 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:11 pm

Even if this was a small necro-bump, I would've posted anyway on the concept of this role.
While I don't think I would ever 'like' the idea, as this is ShadowWalker 2.0 with even slower killing, perhaps that is because of my lack of imagination. However, this role of course lacks control, which only really is made up for its jailing ability, as it can jail key town memebers. However, for that, it is keeping at a slower killing pace.

However, what are my actual observations? Here they are:

1. It can be very well argued that the jailing ability can harm more than help this role in some situations, such as jailing the last mafia. This can happen, if it feels like the other people are too likely to be protected. However, not only does the Siren then lose a kill, from the Mafia, a very powerful resource with these slower killing roles, a more astute town would note this and brush out the last mafia altogether. This kidnapping is a confirmed roleblock, which could mean that the Spirit could help town. This is one of the more long-shotty ideas, but there are far more well based others.

2. Its lack of control is again one of the most unique and underpowering things about this role. It can't choose who to kill, so obviously it lacks power. Whether the way that you deal with that is the best way I'll discuss later...

3. People under the influence of a song being removed from stopping the Siren from winning can be unfair, as they may have full ability to deal with the Siren. This isn't my biggest gripe with this role, but it does mean that more likely than not, unless the person enthralled is a very important role, that they would simply be lynched. They would die anyway to any other role, so, as I said, not a real gripe.

4. This role swings around the rolelist, namely the TIs. I don't really like that this role hard counters Sheriff, and counters Investigator, but then is at the mercy of Scientist, Lookout and Tracker. The chances of these roles being rolled are,of course, random. Either it should counter no TIs, or all TIs, otherwise the role's ability swings too much around whether the TIs are certain roles, which is unhealthy for this role. I would recommend making the visits to protect someone the ones which are seen to Lookouts and Trackers, and for them to override the enthralling. It may also fool Scientist with its framing, to make Scientist, a slightly weak role, an escapable counter to Siren. Take what you please.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby greenrabbit7 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:56 pm

This role is great but it seems like a buffed sk. It kills nightly, learns the roles of it's captives and makes it so they can't preform said roles. Maybe immunity for some roles, like godfather jailor and some others? And I'd like it if you could only enslave one person at once, otherwise you could just keep releasing and it'd allow you to constantly be killing. Otherwise I want this to be in the official game, good job!
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby Mystoc » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:18 pm

sunbird1002 wrote:Even if this was a small necro-bump, I would've posted anyway on the concept of this role.
While I don't think I would ever 'like' the idea, as this is ShadowWalker 2.0 with even slower killing, perhaps that is because of my lack of imagination. However, this role of course lacks control, which only really is made up for its jailing ability, as it can jail key town memebers. However, for that, it is keeping at a slower killing pace.

However, what are my actual observations? Here they are:

1. It can be very well argued that the jailing ability can harm more than help this role in some situations, such as jailing the last mafia. This can happen, if it feels like the other people are too likely to be protected. However, not only does the Siren then lose a kill, from the Mafia, a very powerful resource with these slower killing roles, a more astute town would note this and brush out the last mafia altogether. This kidnapping is a confirmed roleblock, which could mean that the Spirit could help town. This is one of the more long-shotty ideas, but there are far more well based others.

you can release the person you jail since you know the role of the person u jail/imprison you know its in your best intrest to realese them,

i did just realized kill messages would give away an evil is enthralled i will need to change it so when an enthralled killer kills it say person was killed by the killers role and not the entralled


2. Its lack of control is again one of the most unique and underpowering things about this role. It can't choose who to kill, so obviously it lacks power. Whether the way that you deal with that is the best way I'll discuss later...

its win condtion is unquie to though if it has everyone alive is entthralled it wins so it not choosing who the enthralled kill isnt the biggest deal

3. People under the influence of a song being removed from stopping the Siren from winning can be unfair, as they may have full ability to deal with the Siren. This isn't my biggest gripe with this role, but it does mean that more likely than not, unless the person enthralled is a very important role, that they would simply be lynched. They would die anyway to any other role, so, as I said, not a real gripe.

you mean the win condtion of the game ending? the person can still use abilties against the siren every other night it isnt enthralled and still vote against them

4. This role swings around the rolelist, namely the TIs. I don't really like that this role hard counters Sheriff, and counters Investigator, but then is at the mercy of Scientist, Lookout and Tracker. The chances of these roles being rolled are,of course, random. Either it should counter no TIs, or all TIs, otherwise the role's ability swings too much around whether the TIs are certain roles, which is unhealthy for this role. I would recommend making the visits to protect someone the ones which are seen to Lookouts and Trackers, and for them to override the enthralling. It may also fool Scientist with its framing, to make Scientist, a slightly weak role, an escapable counter to Siren. Take what you please.

i mean isnt this the case with asro already it ingores tp and sherrif cant find it but in return in has other weaknesses

first i dont balanced roles off TG roles only whats in the game, the only reason it has the abiltiy of making other apear like the siren is because if an enthralled attacks the siren its own ability would out it as evil, it needs the ability to heal so someone cant say the day before

"im gonna attack sam with my enthralled attack if i die it means sam had a basic defense or higher and is likey the siren! so hang sam if i die guys"

it needs the ability to give other defense so this tactic doesnt insta get it hanged, the invest result is just something that makes sense and i dont think its OP,

the ability can only be used on one person at a time

you get sirens invest results but gain and defense for the night seems like a more then fair trade to me




============================================================================================

This role is great but it seems like a buffed sk. It kills nightly, learns the roles of it's captives and makes it so they can't preform said roles. Maybe immunity for some roles, like godfather jailor and some others? And I'd like it if you could only enslave one person at once, otherwise you could just keep releasing and it'd allow you to constantly be killing. Otherwise I want this to be in the official game, good job!


this has at worst .5 kills a night but on average it will be .75 sk has 1 kpn, also sk can choose who it wants to kill the siren cannot do this being able to choose someone to die vrses choosing who gets to be the killer is a huge difference


if roles were immune to it wouldnt be able to win its goal is enthrall or kill everyone if gf or jailor were last alive they would ista loose

but thats the idea of town and mafia ingores the enthralled and lets the kills build up you grow stronger town can take the time to hang enthralled and mafia will certainly kill town enthralled this will decrease your kpn but also take the heat of you and thats how this role was ment to be designed,

im glad you like the role

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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby sunbird1002 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:51 pm

Mystoc, it is the case for Arso.
Arsonist...
Counters Sheriff
Counters Spy (obviously)
Counters Lookout (Just because someone visited a doused doesn't mean they are arsonist)
Counters Tracker (Same logic as LO)
And counters invest (Douses)

Siren
Counters Sheriff
Counters Invest
Counters Spy
But doesn't counter Lookout or Tracker

The problem is that because these roles are chance, it means that the Siren would be far more powerful some games than others, not great for balance. Im talking the TI slots in a game of ranked.

I understood why you added the basic defence balance change.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby Mystoc » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:41 pm

sunbird1002 wrote:Mystoc, it is the case for Arso.
Arsonist...
Counters Sheriff
Counters Spy (obviously)
Counters Lookout (Just because someone visited a doused doesn't mean they are arsonist)
Counters Tracker (Same logic as LO)
And counters invest (Douses)

Siren
Counters Sheriff
Counters Invest
Counters Spy
But doesn't counter Lookout or Tracker

The problem is that because these roles are chance, it means that the Siren would be far more powerful some games than others, not great for balance. Im talking the TI slots in a game of ranked.

I understood why you added the basic defence balance change.


so ur saying i should make it to immune to everything like asro so game are less swingy or what?

isnt this already the case for SK and mafia if theres a sherrif in the game or not? i think its fine

poisoner same thing with doc
mayor is more powerful if theres a bg vrs doc
jester can be countered by inves ect..

lots of roles do have natural counters

i really only added LO and tracker interaction because it makes sense that visual roles would see someone visit you and watch another visit you
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby ManateeDude » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:00 am

Terrible role. Its killing method can literally act as a town vig or an extra mafia NK. This role is worse than SW because it has 0.5 KPN and next to no control on who it kills.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby Mystoc » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:23 am

Terrible role. Its killing method can literally act as a town vig or an extra mafia NK. This role is worse than SW because it has 0.5 KPN and next to no control on who it kills.


thats the whole point that it doesn't get it hands dirty with the killing it lets other risk tp, if town and mafia are targeting and killing each other lik vig thats good for you they are both ur enemies

i dont know a SW is though so no comment

it has at worst .5 kills a night only if an enthralled victim the whole game only get one kill off then die

if it makes it n4 it has 2/3 .66 if its night its it gets to n6 its 5/6 .83 kill kpn

n1- no kill ( 1 enthralled alive)
n2 kill
n3 no kill
n4 kil, kill ( 2 enthralled alive)
n5 no kill
n6 kill, kill, kill ( 3 enthralled alive)

the more enthralled that are alive the more kills it gets so at worst its .5 kills but has sherrif immunity tp immunity and inves immunity and rb immunity ) its capture and realease is an day ability (sorta)
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby sunbird1002 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:13 am

SW is ShadowWalker, a role which was deemed bad because of the fact that it didn't have much control over who it killed. This has even less control, giving rise to his statement. I can see his point. This role does get its hands dirty, in enthralling, and that is still findable by Lookouts and Trackers...

And what. I though this can only have 2 enthralled alive. Ok, that changes a lot.
Now everyone has incentive to kill the enthralled, and dissallow the Siren getting over 1 KPN, which it is possible. By N6, if you could count, it has 1 KPN, and it spirals when more and more enthralled happen. So, people will try and disallow the Siren to get over that threshold. This means this role forces people to lynch others who they don't suspect, and can lead to more game-breaking scenarios.

The Siren yet again has no control over who lives or dies, or at least very little. And the Siren doesnt even want to control who dies. It wants to have as many people as possible captivated under their spell for it to win early. Wait...

These people who are captivated are as good as dead to the Siren. Yes, they can lynch her, if they can find her. But only if they could. Otherwise, this role has 1 KPN, and it even goes over it.

N1- 1 enthralled alive (-1 person needed to kill)
N2- Kill (-2 people needed to kill)
N3- 2 enthralled (-3 people needed to kill)
N4- Kill kill (-5 people needed to kill)
N5- 3 enthralled (-6 people needed to kill)
N6- Kill Kill Kill (-9 people needed to kill)

Your role has so many ways of looking at it that no wonder people don't know whether its powerful or weak.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby Mystoc » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:24 pm

sunbird1002 wrote:SW is ShadowWalker, a role which was deemed bad because of the fact that it didn't have much control over who it killed. This has even less control, giving rise to his statement. I can see his point. This role does get its hands dirty, in enthralling, and that is still findable by Lookouts and Trackers...

shadow walker only had astral attacks as an upside thats why its weak this has much much more then just that

And what. I though this can only have 2 enthralled alive. Ok, that changes a lot.

no its you can hold two people captive at a time and at the end the night one is realeased so you can only hold one person peramtly captive, enthralled is not the same thing has been held captive

Now everyone has incentive to kill the enthralled, and dissallow the Siren getting over 1 KPN, which it is possible. By N6, if you could count, it has 1 KPN, and it spirals when more and more enthralled happen. So, people will try and disallow the Siren to get over that threshold. This means this role forces people to lynch others who they don't suspect, and can lead to more game-breaking scenarios.

if they are taking time to lynch enthralled there are not taking the time to kill/lynch you seems an even trade to me remember if you die all enthralled are freed and arent forced to kill every other night so they might try look for instead and let the enthralled stay alive

The Siren yet again has no control over who lives or dies, or at least very little. And the Siren doesnt even want to control who dies. It wants to have as many people as possible captivated under their spell for it to win early. Wait...

These people who are captivated are as good as dead to the Siren. Yes, they can lynch her, if they can find her. But only if they could. Otherwise, this role has 1 KPN, and it even goes over it.

its only 1 kpn if the person doesnt die before the game ends which is very unlikey, compare to it hexmaster and u get an idea of how it would work its "1 kpn" only happens once everyone is "hexed" unlike hexmaster though everyone know who is "hexed" so can take the time to kill them getting rid of sirens kill and part of KPN


N1- 1 enthralled alive (-1 person needed to kill)
N2- Kill (-2 people needed to kill)
N3- 2 enthralled (-3 people needed to kill)
N4- Kill kill (-5 people needed to kill)
N5- 3 enthralled (-6 people needed to kill)
N6- Kill Kill Kill (-9 people needed to kill)

again people know who the enthralled are though and will try to kill them to take way ur KPN and an action u did at the same time
the situation u describe is correct but its a perfect once in 1000 type situation


i view it has a much needed game mechnaic thats fun its let the victim be the killer and choose who dies if they refuse to kill the die instead its sorta like NK the pulls string in the background that lets others do their dirty work

Your role has so many ways of looking at it that no wonder people don't know whether its powerful or weak.


the biggest weakness the siren has is enthralled can vote against her. and for each enthralled alive its another person that cant be the siren, since she cant enthrall herself.

two ways around this let her spend a night to enthrall herself and become an attacker but if the attack fails she doesnt die but TP now can interact with her

another work around is give her a mayor like her a moon icon ability to reveal to the game she the siren but now enthralled cant vote against her now at the price of everyone knowing who she is


do you think one of the two buffs are good? or just leave the role as is?
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing)

Postby sunbird1002 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:41 pm

The second work around can prove outright gamebreaking, and disrupts voting, so, no, the second one isn't great.

The first buff is certainly interesting, and would give this role more cover, as well as giving more much needed control. Of course, the downside with enthralling yourself is that now you have more people you need to kill. Also, if the 1st change is to be implemented, then:
1. The Siren has to let itself out the next day. It cant just enthrall itself and go in its hidey-hole for the rest of the game, as then it becomes an unvotable pest which can needlessly extend games. This also gives incentive to let people out as quickly as possible, rather than acting as a perm roleblocker, which honestly isn't very fun to play against. However, it can delay lynching the Siren, because enthralled people cannot be lynched, which may be unfair, as it could easily cost the difference between a won or lost game because of 1 day of an evil role being vote immune.

Either the first change, or no change, is my verdict.
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