Siren (Neutral Killing)

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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:58 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:You can predict, but predicting isn't everything. Being in TG doesn't mean I have to like a role or think it's good either. Werewolf has to predict where people will visit and attack based off of that, yet it's typically not a very good role because it relies on getting lucky with it's predictions. Werewolf is worse because it can only attack every other day, so people can just not visit then, but it's still not a good aspect of an NK.



it having to be good at predicting to get direct kills is part of the balance of the role

its enthrall ability is a day ability so its power of an unstoppable ability means other areas of the role need to be weaker and that includes direct kills

remember baseline for NK is SK any new NK cant be better then it, not having direct kills it's part of balance
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:04 am

Balance shouldn't impede skill. You can't control who you kill, which is the entire point of NK, to be a deadly killer who puts pressure on both Town and Mafia. This role can't do that very well if all it does is kill off poor players and weak roles. It could kill a Jailor or Retri, but that's not really your call to make, since you don't choose who dies.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:12 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Balance shouldn't impede skill. You can't control who you kill, which is the entire point of NK, to be a deadly killer who puts pressure on both Town and Mafia. This role can't do that very well if all it does is kill off poor players and weak roles. It could kill a Jailor or Retri, but that's not really your call to make, since you don't choose who dies.


this role does require skill though you need good game sense to predict visits and who will kill who, to go for direct kills. this role doesn't have to go for weak roles it can go for any role it wants all it needs is the skill to predict visits

also

it can keep jailor or ret captive the whole game it doesn't feel confident it can predict who they will try to kill which is basicly the same thing as killing them although they will be released back into the game if you are ever killed
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:17 am

The problem is, no matter how skilled you are, you can be wrong. So even if you're really skilled, that doesn't mean you'll get who you want killed.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:49 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:I'm not saying it should have direct kills, I'm saying it should have control over who it kills. Without control, it's down to educated guessing and luck.


every role in the game as an aspect of predicting though with SK u have to predict where tp won't go and protect a target you have to predict who isn't vet

(siren won't have this problem sk does with tp or vet day ability does not interact with night abilities)

with TP and LO you have to predict where the killers will strike to be effective

you don't have control over the other players actions and yet you need to predict what they will do

they don't have control over their enemies and have to make educated guesses to be effective thats part of the game
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:06 am

Most of that is true, except for TP and LO. Lookout gains information from watching literally anyone, not watching killers doesn't make you useless. TP merely existing means people probably wont attack obvious targets, so even if you don't save anyone, you're still making killers afraid.

Yes, an SK has to predict. But they're going to have a much easier time doing it, because they don't need to do it as much as this role. There have been ideas like this in the past, and they typically get shot down. You should be in control of who you kill, since who you kill as an NK can steer the game.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:15 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Most of that is true, except for TP and LO. Lookout gains information from watching literally anyone, not watching killers doesn't make you useless. TP merely existing means people probably wont attack obvious targets, so even if you don't save anyone, you're still making killers afraid.

Yes, an SK has to predict. But they're going to have a much easier time doing it, because they don't need to do it as much as this role. There have been ideas like this in the past, and they typically get shot down. You should be in control of who you kill, since who you kill as an NK can steer the game.



theses other roles have can deter people just by existing true but to actually stop killers they need to predict where the killer will strike

i don't see how sk has a much easier time doing it if he guesses wrong he dies if siren guesses wrong she simply doesn't get to kill who she wants but still is guaranteed at least .5 kills a night if not more

i have already given points how you can control who dies there are two main ways refer to what i said above,

you do have indirect control of who the killers are that kill for you and predicting where the killers will strike if you feel like predicting that you can kill them or simple keep a huge threat like jailor captive the whole game

i don't agree that a role cant be NK if it cant directly kill but we can agree to disagree on that, i have linked you a killing role that was accepted into TG that indirectly kills so there is precedent for this.

saying you personally don't like roles that cant 100% directly kill is fine thats your own opinion

but to say it's in inviable role is not
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:18 am

I never said it needs to directly kill, I said it should be in control of who dies. There's a difference. SK does have an easier time. It can die if it fucks up, but it's a lot less likely to fuck up. NK have the hardest time winning, so why are you making one that has to guess - sorry, predict - who it's going to kill, when killing is the entire point of Neutral Killing roles?

Oh yeah, not to mention the SK can kill off TP and LO, whereas this will always not know who it's going to kill. It can try to get people to kill how it wants, but it can't be certain.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:33 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:I never said it needs to directly kill, I said it should be in control of who dies. There's a difference. SK does have an easier time. It can die if it fucks up, but it's a lot less likely to fuck up. NK have the hardest time winning, so why are you making one that has to guess - sorry, predict - who it's going to kill, when killing is the entire point of Neutral Killing roles?


what do you consider a fuck up? i don't think not killing who you originally wanted to be considered that, dieing though would be a fuck up i agree which will happen to sk if he guesses wrong

how is my role going to have a harder time if it predicts wrong it just doesn't get kill who wants , sk can flat out die to trapper bodyguard crusader and vet (and kinda LO if it predicts wrong)

i don't see the comparison, my role is immune to death from night abilities (besides asro and WW and pest/jugg) while it sacrifices being able to directly kill both involve choices and predictions to succeed mine is just a different take on it
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:38 am

It doesn't kill who it wants. Instead of killing the Retri, you kill the Mafioso. Instead of killing the Doctor, you kill the Framer. Instead of killing the Jailor since TP is dead, you kill the Witch. These fuck ups aren't as bad as dying, but they're going to happen more commonly.


Edit: And what happens when they target you?
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:45 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:It doesn't kill who it wants. Instead of killing the Retri, you kill the Mafioso. Instead of killing the Doctor, you kill the Framer. Instead of killing the Jailor since TP is dead, you kill the Witch. These fuck ups aren't as bad as dying, but they're going to happen more commonly.



dying can only happen once so of course it will happen less often and means you lose the game

while the other mistake is only a minor annoyance the reason a lot of these important roles are feared is because of their night ability this role doesn't care about night abilities though (expect jailor) this role really only fears jailor ret and to an extent mayor the rest of the roles that die it doesn't' matter to it what they are and if it cant kill them it can at least keep one them captive the whole game.

lets say you suck at predicting who an enthralled person will kill and never get it right not even once absolute worst case scenario

the people that die are still all people who need to die you have no allies besides possibly NE, so them getting killed is still a win and by no means a bad thing, you didn't have to risk anything for these other roles to die since the killers are others not you, safety vrs direct killing, it's the unique aspect of this role.

a role not being able to kill isn't a be all end all of a role if it has other areas that make is strong my role has this factor
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:54 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Edit: And what happens when they target you?

This was probably answered but I don't have a lot of free time

And this role doesn't care about night actions? Well their pseudo-allies, the Coven/Mafia do. So this role not killing any useful Town or killing off Mafia means that Mafia will do worse, which means the Siren will have a harder time since NKs need Mafia and Mafia need NKs for a good shot at winning.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:54 am

first section of role

(Note if the enthralled person attacks someone and they do not die from the enthralled's attack the enthralled will take their own life instead since they failed to kill someone. Enthralled who die in this manner will leave behind no will!)

this role has a basic defense that attack of an enthralled is a basic attak

your ability can give others basic defense, see correlation?

predict where an enthralled will attack and kill them if you use the ability on other target
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:57 am

Ah, so if you get attacked then you get outed. They're going to write in their will who they want to attack, and if they die they know that person was either healed or they hit an immune person.

And you can try to use your ability on the other person, but that's an incredibly inefficient way to get the target you want dead.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:01 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Edit: And what happens when they target you?

This was probably answered but I don't have a lot of free time

And this role doesn't care about night actions? Well their pseudo-allies, the Coven/Mafia do. So this role not killing any useful Town or killing off Mafia means that Mafia will do worse, which means the Siren will have a harder time since NKs need Mafia and Mafia need NKs for a good shot at winning.


night actions it cares about are as follows (jailor executing it) day ability jails it though so technically not a night action

WW and asro attacking you (powerful attack beats basic defense) in most games though you won't be vrs another NK only applicable in custom games or all any

Lookout will see a enthralled person visit you if they are watching you and tracker will see a person visiting you if they are are watching the person you enthrall

so technically 4-5 night actions

but realistically its only 2 tracker and LO


mafia/coven are your enemies though them doing worse is a benefit to you, NK is actually in the game so mafia and coven does better, think of it reversed now

mafia is in the game to get those direct kills and distract town from you, you do better because of mafia true but some of them dying doesn't mean you lose the game, mafia as won many games where NK dies early-mid game its harder yes but very doable

mafia and coven are distractions for town to go after they are not your allies eventually they need to die as well so them dying early on because powerful roles ares still alive isn't a good thing or bad thing really
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:03 pm

If a Serial Killer kills all Mafia in the first three nights, that means all of the Town is hunting you. If you kill off Town until Mafia and Town are about equal, Town wont have the means to kill you off as long as you balance it out so you can take down the Mafia. NKs need Mafia alive early on to present a threat to Town, so they're your ally until Town is weak.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:05 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Ah, so if you get attacked then you get outed. They're going to write in their will who they want to attack, and if they die they know that person was either healed or they hit an immune person.

And you can try to use your ability on the other person, but that's an incredibly inefficient way to get the target you want dead.


it's more like and bob the enthralled announces during they day I WILL ATTACK Martha if i die and have no will it means she's the siren. While siren is look ok sounds good gives a martha basic defense the next night and laughs as martha is hanged for being siren.

even if martha really was the siren she as an out and can claim the siren knew bob would attack her since he announced it so she gave her a basic defense to frame her

i had to give this role the ability to heal others for this exact scenario a side bonus is it also gives them you invis result for the night they are healed

killing and enthralled in this way will be hard without them announcing it true but BG does the same thing with predicting where sk will strike and BG gets kills all the time
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:07 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:If a Serial Killer kills all Mafia in the first three nights, that means all of the Town is hunting you. If you kill off Town until Mafia and Town are about equal, Town wont have the means to kill you off as long as you balance it out so you can take down the Mafia. NKs need Mafia alive early on to present a threat to Town, so they're your ally until Town is weak.


that's an extreme example but yes it can happen with this role just like it can happen with SK it is a weakness of not having a direct way to kill but like i stated it has many other strengths in other areas

also mafia has four members now not 3 but i get your point
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:09 pm

So you gave this role an ability literally for one scenario? That ability has no use for an NK other than that one scenario. You shouldn't give it an entire ability it doesn't need because of just one scenario, and the other use of the ability you mentioned is just educated guesswork.

Also you can just whisper someone "I'm enthralled and I'll attack X tonight" so the point is moot.


NKs and Mafia are allies early on is my point, and if you get unlucky you can hurt them which hurts you, that's my point.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:13 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:So you gave this role an ability literally for one scenario? That ability has no use for an NK other than that one scenario. You shouldn't give it an entire ability it doesn't need because of just one scenario, and the other use of the ability you mentioned is just educated guesswork.

Also you can just whisper someone "I'm enthralled and I'll attack X tonight" so the point is moot.


NKs and Mafia are allies early on is my point, and if you get unlucky you can hurt them which hurts you, that's my point.


that scenario will be very common of an enthralled person announcing who they will kill villagante does it a lot in mafia mode (not coven cause CL is OP)

whispers are very hard to balance around but yea that would counter it the siren still has an out though and can still claim the real siren gave them the defense randomly or the person who got whispered to is really the siren and knew to give them a basic defense

or just call the person exe

it would be like sheriff finding mafia claim it's your word against them

you can give mafia or witch (a real ally) a basic defense if you fear them dying early and leaving you alone on this ability has multiple uses
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:15 pm

You'd still need to find the Mafia early, which you wont instantly do. And Vigilante calls out who they'll kill in Classic ToS because Vigilante doesn't need to worry about an NK Doctor, which is an ability NK doesn't need.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:22 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:You'd still need to find the Mafia early, which you wont instantly do. And Vigilante calls out who they'll kill in Classic ToS because Vigilante doesn't need to worry about an NK Doctor, which is an ability NK doesn't need.


the same can be said for town who want them dead or enthralled people who try to kill mafia they will need to find them early too usually theres supporting facts of why a person is suspected of being evil you will hear these facts in day chat you have the same clues as someone else trying to find and kill mafia that is only a secondary use of the ability and in the end as long as mafia doesn't die to early its ok if they die because they are your enemy as well

like i said its main use is making others appear like the siren or simply using that as an excuse why you have a basic defense

which is an ability NK doesn't need.


you make broad statements with no back up facts why do you think this don't just say things gives supporting facts to your reasoning

my role has multiple reasons it needs to be able to give people basic defense otherwise it own ability would be its greatest weakness since it being attacked with its own ability and not dying would be role running concept and make the role inviable
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:28 pm

What are the reasons it needs to heal people, and why? You said you can heal the person your target attacks to get them killed, but that's a very inefficient way to kill them, because you have no guarantee they'll actually attack that person. There's also healing the person the enthralled says they will kill at daytime, but you assume they'll tell the truth instead of lying or just whispering it. You said it has multiple reasons, which is true, but they're both reasons that wont come up all that often. It's ability is it's greatest weakness, the ability I'm talking about is the killing ability, since you have so little control over who dies.
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:55 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:What are the reasons it needs to heal people, and why? You said you can heal the person your target attacks to get them killed, but that's a very inefficient way to kill them, because you have no guarantee they'll actually attack that person. There's also healing the person the enthralled says they will kill at daytime, but you assume they'll tell the truth instead of lying or just whispering it. You said it has multiple reasons, which is true, but they're both reasons that wont come up all that often. It's ability is it's greatest weakness, the ability I'm talking about is the killing ability, since you have so little control over who dies.


it doesn't NEED to be used it an optional reactionary ability that fixes its horrible weakness of its own ability being used against it, it can also be used to kill enthralled if you predict who they attack sure it's not an easy thing to do but it same principle of TP predicting who evils attacks, it can be used heal witch to save an ally or jester to make them look the siren and susp helping them win at same time keeping a mafia alive a bit longer so they distract town for you into late is a reason as well

those are multiple reasons,

btw potion master is an evil role who can heal and yea it has a team but this role has has witch and jester and NEEDS this ability otherwise its own ability will out itself

theres no reason an enthralled would randomly lie who it attack in day time chat that serves no purpose if it cant kill the person it dies and has no will so lying during the day accomplishes nothing

i admit i did not consider whispering a friend you trust who you will kill and that is a counter. but it has many stipulations to it, first you need someone you trust and then the person they actually attack has to be the siren, theres multiple reasons a person could have a basic defense including TP healing them

if all these factors happen or don't happen it's still that person's word vs yours since it was a whisper and not a public announcement same thing happens with sheriff and finding mafia claims who is the liar?
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Re: Siren (Neutral Killing) (Lore Added!)

Postby Mystoc » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:06 pm

an easy fix to this though is enthralled victims cant whisper or be be whispered too i may add this if needed (cause any ally could just as easily whisper to an enthralled friend who to kill if was changed that they couldn't whisper)

you are right whispering who you will kill to any a trusted friend/ally is a good a counter to this role but it is still an he said she said situation so this added buff idea may not be needed
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