Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Implement my Jester?

Yes!
23
38%
Yes, but as a new role!
17
28%
No!
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Total votes : 61

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Jackparrot » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:11 pm

You are stating that jester is currently not a good NE as it hurts scum. True?
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:19 pm

It's not a good NE because it hurts scum more often and easier than other NEs. Witch and Exe can hurt scum but not nearly as easily.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Jackparrot » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:22 pm

Please look at my example for both roles
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:25 pm

Jackparrot wrote:Dear supporters of this petition,i would like to point out that, NEs shouldnt exist as according to parallex as all of them potentailly help the town yes all three of them!
EX1: exe tries to get target lynched, dies the next night and boom! confirmed townie and less people to put suspicion on, there fore hindering the oposition.
EX2: Witch attempts to use escort on "doc" when in fact he was SK with LO on him! (effectivly confirmed SK(confirmed town is bad but confirmed
scum is game-destroying))
EX3 (Parallex's example)

So by this logic NE doesnt exist! it's killing NB! :P

If Exe is dying the next night then they were killed by a WW or Arso most likely. Arso wouldn't be killing early and WW shouldn't be targeting a Townie - Executioners should be acting as Townie as possible to get their target lynched. If the Exe is dying, they're a bad Exe or the Jailor/NK killing them is a bad player. So no, your example here is wrong.
Your second example isn't all that common anyway, so I don't need to address it. Jester kills scum a lot more than something like that happens.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:58 pm

Joacgroso wrote:First of all, why there isn't a "no" option in the poll? You should add it.
Personally, I like jesters as they are now. Also, as the person above said, 4 pranks is too much. It should only have 2 or 3. Also, jesters should lose if they are executed by the jailor. This would make every evil role act like a jester, which is not funny. Town should have at least 1 way of killing him without being punished.
And personally, I think that this could be a new role, but it would be better if jester stayed as they are now.

You don't sign petitions to say no.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:09 pm

Jackparrot wrote:Dear supporters of this petition,i would like to point out that, NEs shouldnt exist as according to parallex as all of them potentailly help the town yes all three of them!
EX1: exe tries to get target lynched, dies the next night and boom! confirmed townie and less people to put suspicion on, there fore hindering the oposition.
EX2: Witch attempts to use escort on "doc" when in fact he was SK with LO on him! (effectivly confirmed SK(confirmed town is bad but confirmed
scum is game-destroying))
EX3 (Parallex's example)

So by this logic NE doesnt exist! it's killing NB! :P

1. How would they die though? By Jailor/WW/Arso? Jailor has no evidence against them, WW can just target someone that they think is gonna get visitors instead of them and why would Arso kill so early?
2. Why would witch confirm SK? Witch's goal is to SEE TOWN LOSE, not see scum lose. That example is very specific, how do you know it's always gonna be like that?
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby BPsycho2 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:24 pm

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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:31 pm

I think this is a good change. Currently the Neutral (Evil) category should be for any neutral role that can't considtently kill, and is against the town, so helps evils. Jester can go either way, because it has the ability to kill any guilty voter. This is hard for the mafia because they are usually the ones thst sre required to lead the lynch againds the Jester, even though it can kill them. Thus they can't really utilize the Jester safely as you would with Witch.

Witch had to helps the evils in order to win, throughout the entire game. Since she has to survive until the end and she has to have all of the town dead. This is, in my opinion, the only goal that should exist in the Neutral (Evil) slot. The Stalker and Necromorph are also 2 great roles, they work very well just like the Witch. I would say it id because of the win condition, anti-town.

The Executioner is a bit different. Sure he can fo whatever sfter he wins, but at the end of the day the Executioner has to help the evils because he has to kill a town member to win. However because he can do whatever he wants afterwards, he could also backstab the evils and help the town if he chooses. Because of this I think that the Executioner is bad for Neutral (Evil) as well, so I will be ignoring him in my argument for Neutral (Evil).

So why is all of this important? Well it shows what a Neutral (Evil) needs to be. Anti-Town, Pro-Evil. And Jester just isn't that. As I said earlier, the Jester is can go either ways, kind've how an Amnesic chooses who to become, the Jester chooses which faction to hurt. Where the Amnesiac helps, the Jester hurts. And that is a good match. They go together. The Jester fits the description of Neutral (Benign) perfectly, with its seperate goal for winning, and not being prejudice to one faction.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:34 pm

Thanks gooose, I can always count on you to paragraph my posts. ;)
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:32 am

Schultz128 wrote:No.

Also, amazing poll with the always hilarious "lol we put yes as the only option xd"

Only plays FM and doesn't even gives reason ^
Also why would anyone say no if it's a petition
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Schultz128 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:08 am

lemonader666 wrote:
Schultz128 wrote:No.

Also, amazing poll with the always hilarious "lol we put yes as the only option xd"

Only plays FM and doesn't even gives reason ^
Also why would anyone say no if it's a petition


>When FM has Jester and is infinitely more balanced than town of salem.

It's called a petition for a reason, people are to state whether it should be implemented or not. It doesn't mean suck the OPs dick and support it blindly.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby JGaming08 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:19 am

Schultz128 wrote:
lemonader666 wrote:
Schultz128 wrote:No.

Also, amazing poll with the always hilarious "lol we put yes as the only option xd"

Only plays FM and doesn't even gives reason ^
Also why would anyone say no if it's a petition


>When FM has Jester and is infinitely more balanced than town of salem.

It's called a petition for a reason, people are to state whether it should be implemented or not. It doesn't mean suck the OPs dick and support it blindly.

People tend to put two yesses as the only option, either don't vote or click the 'yes' at the bottom.

Plus, Jester prevents random lynching yeah, but it can harm Town roles as much as evils, in my opinion Jester should just get an alignment change.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Schultz128 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:23 am

JGaming08 wrote:Plus, Jester prevents random lynching yeah, but it can harm Town roles as much as evils, in my opinion.


That's the point
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby JGaming08 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:24 am

Schultz128 wrote:
JGaming08 wrote:Plus, Jester prevents random lynching yeah, but it can harm Town roles as much as evils, in my opinion.


That's the point

It is, but it's Neutral Evil. An alignment created to hurt Town.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Schultz128 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:25 am

Changing it to Neutral Benign is fine, changing how jester works entirely is pointless.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby JGaming08 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:26 am

That seems fair enough.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:26 am

Schultz128 wrote:Changing it to Neutral Benign is fine, changing how jester works entirely is pointless.

It wouldn't work as NB with that mechanic as that since it can't kill
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Schultz128 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:29 am

Neutral Benign is a role that can win with any alignment.

Hence, Jester.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:38 am

Schultz128 wrote:Neutral Benign is a role that can win with any alignment.

Hence, Jester.

But it can't and shouldn't kill in any way
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby JGaming08 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:42 am

Amnesiac can turn into a role that kills every night.
Survivors can decide the fates of certain games by lynching.
Guardian Angel is biased towards a certain faction.

You tell me if NB is a 'friendly' alignment.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:45 am

JGaming08 wrote:Amnesiac can turn into a role that kills every night.
Survivors can decide the fates of certain games by lynching.
Guardian Angel is biased towards a certain faction.

You tell me if NB is a 'friendly' alignment.

I meant by their role abilities(Amnesiac can't kill yet when use their ability since they become a new role) , and a lynch is used by everyone.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:06 am

DeadLittleLamb wrote:
Jackparrot wrote:The current jester is fun and balenced, while this is odd and could be a different role, i would not like to see jester changed.


Current Jester is swingy and does not fit the Neutral Evil alignment, it also encourages being scummy which is bad.

I have to disagree with you there. I believe that the objectives of each of the NE roles does one thing in particular: Divert town's attention from or support killers and evil factions. With Witch goal being "Survive to see Town lose" she has emphasis on helping the scum, Exe having their target as a member of the town means Town is misusing lynch to kill one of their own, and Jester also causes town to misuse lynching to kill someone who was trying to divert focus from the actual evils. Granted that's my understanding of this.

Anyway, I currently like the jester as is, but I think this would be a fun role to see in game so... Maybe a new role with these abilities? I dunno, not my call to make.
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:15 am

Even if Jester diverts focus from evils, it can still kill an evil that night. That's the problem, it killing scum completely counters out diverting attention. It means Town still benefits, two scum gone without any loss for themselves. Neutral Evil should be anti-Town, Jester is anti-everyone with their kill.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:27 am

By that same logic,the Witch is an issue too since they can control a killer or vampire to kill other evils and on more than one occasion.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby RHCube » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 am

This could work as a new role, but it shouldn't be a jester rework. The only changes that jester needs are being made into neutral benign, and being able to visit players(these visits would do nothing). Also you should add a no option to the poll
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