Parallax7 wrote:Villagerlover wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again because I still stand by it.
It's an interesting role.
But it shouldn't replace the current jester.
Make it another role to put under the Neutral Evil category. Or put it somewhere else. I'm not too sure where you think it would fit best, but it should certainly not replace a key aspect of the game.
Incase it hasn’t occurred to you, whether it be because you genuinely don’t understand this role, or you’re playing dumb, this doesn’t replace anything - it solves a currently broken but key aspect of the game.
It still deters lynches, but now also deters night kills. Both factions can manipulate the Jester in an effort to gain the upper hand, current Jester is supposed to be used by scum to benefit them, it instead runs risk of nullifying it’s intended purpose by killing Mafia. Killing players in general is swingy, so that in and of itself is poor of the current Jester.
This removes that detriment and allocates a healthier meta to both factions, Mafia and Town alike. In doing so it solidifies it’s place as NB and is much better for balance than simply moving Jester to NB or leaving it as NE.
The video explains why it isn’t Neutral(Evil) mind you.
First of all, assuming I do not understand the english language that I had to read through on your role idea, or assuming I am playing dumb will not make me want to agree with your idea more. If anything, it deters me as a viewer. Even if my points are flawed, it doesn't make your points flawless, so keep some respect for the criticism you're asking for on these forums, mind you.
Now for my points with the role:
It
does replace something. (The current jester).
You say both factions can manipulate the jester with this idea, which is true. But I thought the entire point of this rework was so that the jester wasn't used as a weapon when discovered? What is preventing the jester from simply revealing themselves, offering themselves as a weapon to either side? Sure, a Jailor and Vigilante might be obliged to kill them at night, but why would they do that if they know they might get pranked? And again, as I've mentioned earlier, if the town loses majority in voting, the non-town roles can easily lynch the revealed jester without any consequences, as it's lynch only hurts the town. This is a
major flaw, as you're essentially turning the jester into an free-win weapon instead of giving it the premise of a role that's supposed to be challenging.
Mentioning that, another major flaw I have with this idea, as I've said before, is that it's goal is too easy. It is a role that has the ability to win by being killed at night. No role should ever have such an ability because it's too easy to pull off. Even if it is limited. No one should ever desire to die during the nighttime in order to have a way to win. Because at that point, it turns into a game of predicting when you'll die at night so that you can win, which takes
much less effort than trying to trick an entire town into getting you on the ropes.
This role will be treated like a second veteran that opposes
everyone.
No one wants to touch a revealed jester because everyone is afraid of touching it, or killing it at night because of the possibility of getting pranked. And due to that, in the event that the jester remains untouched, they become...a
kingmaker! Sure, the current jester can fall under the same status, but this role would definitely be a kingmaker waaaaaaaaaaay more often. Cause literally no one wants to touch this prankster. And that's not a good thing.
I'll take the veteran for a great comparison. Once a veteran is revealed, no one is ever going to visit them again unless an evil role is foolish enough to believe they can snipe the veteran (a rare occurrence, as there is almost always better targets). This role is essentially a 2nd veteran that will eventually become a Kingmaker. Once a Jester is revealed to the public, no one is ever going to visit them again, or attempt to lynch them, which is quite awful.
People should have an ability to deal with a role that can threaten them instead of simply hoping they aren't about to double cross them. This role doesn't allow that. No one wants to suffer the consequences of
lynching or killing it.
Now what about jesters that choose not to reveal?
Well then we can expect to see a lot more
guessing-when-I-will-get-killed-at-night jester's instead of what we have now. This role is under no obligation to trick an entire town when all it has to do is (go on alert) pull a prank at night, and await to get killed. Am I saying it's going to be successful all the time? No. But the fact of the matter is, most humans playing this game are going to exploit the hell out of dying at night a lot more than trying to take the more challenging route. But in the instances where it does work (which would be a lot more frequent than getting lynched), the evil roles are going to suffer a lot more than the town's voting power.
This new role, as I've said before, does not fix anything as far as I can see. It still acts as a weapon. It can still receive free wins, it's still able to become a kingmaker(which would be a lot easier to do), and isn't nearly as challenging as the original jester.
The only thing that I think is possibly good is that it goes under Neutral Benign, which isn't even on the ranked role list anymore.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
I think this role concept/idea is pretty neat. It could be it's own thing.
But it should
not replace the current jester.
/No support