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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:15 pm
by wozearly
Blegh...I'm torn.

I like a lot of the general thrust of Parallax's proposals, and agree with much of the core of the argument and the thinking behind the rework, but not the current end result. It massively complicates the effect of the Jester role, with a knock-on effect on Executioner, and turns it into more of an explicit Neutral Chaos than Neutral Benign role.

I may need to marshal my thoughts a bit better over a couple of posts, but the way I see it is:

1) Jester is currently half-NE, half-NC. In principle, it's somewhat more aligned to Mafia/Coven because they have better information on who is actually evil - in most rolelists that's enough to weigh up the risk of a Jester when deciding whether or not to vote guilty, especially if Town members are indicating their intended decision to vote. They also have an incentive to support the Jester, as lynching a Jester typically carries the same penalty for Town as a mislynch, with the added pain that the Jester has an element of influence over who dies as a result.

2) I agree that, in practice, the Jester can deal a nasty blow to Mafia/Coven/NK if they mislynch the Jester, or are forced to to defend their Town credentials. It's also difficult for them to work directly with the Jester as an ally in the way they can with the Exe or Witch.

3) Jesters do provide an element of cover through their own disruptive activities and by giving Town pause before lynching an obviously suspicious role when there's not conclusive evidence that the person is Mafia/Coven/NK, potentially buying the scum another night to strike.

4) While I like the idea of an anti-survivor who can potentially turn on Town or Mafia, the idea that a Jester could random-prank night one, where the night killers are often literally stabbing in the dark gives a potentially very cheap win to the Jester. And Mafia/NK losing a night of killing is almost as much of a boost to the Town as having them be killed by Jester haunting. Indeed, giving the Jester control of their decision to win by lynch or night death allows them to present an open threat to the Mafia/Coven along the same lines as a Veteran...that's a pretty harsh penalty

5) It's difficult to class the proposed Jester as NB, given that their win conditions are intended to explicitly frustrate whichever faction(s) they attempt to prank. That feels like more of a Neutral Chaos role description, as they're natural enemies of both main factions.

6) The rework creates complications for Exe and adds general complexity by trying to give a broadly equiavalent (although not equal) penalty for each side being tricked by the Jester.

7) Requiring all core factions to share a win condition makes a degree of logical sense, but there's no reason to apply this indiscrimintely to the neutrals. The varied win conditions is one of the hallmarks of NB/NE/NC. This causes the Jester rework to, yet again, sting the Exe.

So...thoughts on solutions?

If the Jester is anticipated to be a natural Mafia/Coven/NK ally as NE, then their haunting needs to be tweaked; as does their potential for kingmaking.

One way this could be done simply would be to make Mafia, Coven and Neutral Killing immune to haunting. Making the scum roles more lynch-happy would add an interesting twist to the meta, and because the Jester is now harmless to them they have more reason to find a way to identify and work with them.

Town would gain a potential benefit, as a failure to haunt would confirm that one of the Guilty voters was definitely evil, but without confirming which - much like the Psychic results from Coven. Evils would still need to beware of being the only person to lynch a Jester, as this would out them as evil the following day. However, it would stop them being accidentally penalised for piling in on a mislynch as they are currently, or penalised for accidentally stabbing a scum-baiting Jester at night, or forced to submit to Jester kingmaking if they did the 'right' thing by not murdering the Jester earlier in the game.

This would also give Jesters an incentive to "keep on jesting" right up to the end rather than revealing, as they will no longer be able to act as kingmakers and need to continue their trickery until the noose tightens - and Evils are not likely to want to reveal themselves by attempting to gulity a known Jester

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:34 am
by Parallax7
HOLY FUCKING SHIT 8,000 VIEWS?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME? DUDE SMASH THE SUPPORT BUTTON.

#MAKESALEMGREATAGAIN #SEENONEUTRALEVIL

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:27 pm
by joefischerxxx
Jester's good how it is. This is trash.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:54 pm
by Mystoc
joefischerxxx wrote:Jester's good how it is. This is trash.


that's not helpful feedback how does that help him understand why you don't like the role

how would you like if someone commented on one your role ideas the role is trash with no explanation what so ever why they think this? Treat others how you would want to be treated man thats all

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:57 pm
by K1llthestory
not needed role change son

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:11 pm
by Mystoc
i don't like this role has no way to get charges back its bad it can lose if runs out charges no other role in the game is like this a win condition shouldn't have charges it would be very unfun to play esp one your last charge knowing if you use it don't get the prank off you die, i wouldn't want to play this role

========================================

do this instead

make its prank uses for a night prank and a day prank separate

its has unlimited pranks

if it uses a night prank it cant prank during the night next night (dying during the night)

it uses a day prank it can prank during the day for the next day ( get hanged during the day)

if it uses both a day and then a night prank without waiting a day/night the next day it can use any type of prank for 1 night/day

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:15 pm
by Mystoc
K1llthestory wrote:not needed role change son


why do you feel this way? jester can harm evils and it shouldn't i agree it needs to changed but neccarsily to what exactly OP suggested

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:17 pm
by K1llthestory
jester's fine. it's neutral evil. it doesn't give a fuck who it harms, but it's a necessary role in the grand scheme of things and a fine fakeclaim. other shit is irrelevant.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:22 pm
by Mystoc
K1llthestory wrote:jester's fine. it's neutral evil. it doesn't give a fuck who it harms, but it's a necessary role in the grand scheme of things and a fine fakeclaim. other shit is irrelevant.


NE means it harms town not evils, NE is meant to be a indirect ally to all other evils and and enemy of town its not meant to be able to harm evils,

stating how a role is a certain way now doesn't mean it should stay that way, BMG does change existing roles because they see they are unbalanced or unfair look at how spy and disguiser were reworked

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:23 pm
by Villagerlover
I've said it before and I'll say it again because I still stand by it.



It's an interesting role.
But it shouldn't replace the current jester.

Make it another role to put under the Neutral Evil category. Or put it somewhere else. I'm not too sure where you think it would fit best, but it should certainly not replace a key aspect of the game.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:27 pm
by K1llthestory
Mystoc wrote:
K1llthestory wrote:jester's fine. it's neutral evil. it doesn't give a fuck who it harms, but it's a necessary role in the grand scheme of things and a fine fakeclaim. other shit is irrelevant.


NE means it harms town not evils, NE is meant to be a indirect ally to all other evils and and enemy of town its not meant to be able to harm evils,

stating how a role is a certain way now doesn't mean it should stay that way, BMG does change existing roles because they see they are unbalanced or unfair look at how spy and disguiser were reworked

bro i know all this shit, but if an evil is harmed in the process of a jester completing his goal, oh fucking well LMAO. jester doesn't really give a fuck about other evils as much as it cares about causing chaos and giving evils more time to work with. if one of them is stupid enough to vote on an evil, that's there fault.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:27 pm
by Mystoc
Villagerlover wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again because I still stand by it.



It's an interesting role.
But it shouldn't replace the current jester.

Make it another role to put under the Neutral Evil category. Or put it somewhere else. I'm not too sure where you think it would fit best, but it should certainly not replace a key aspect of the game.


it does the same thing as jester though i think it should NC though not NB if reworked has NB doesnt apear in ranked anymore and jester definitely should be able to appear in ranked, it to similar to jstor for it not replace it thats the problem

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:31 pm
by Mystoc
K1llthestory wrote:
Mystoc wrote:
K1llthestory wrote:jester's fine. it's neutral evil. it doesn't give a fuck who it harms, but it's a necessary role in the grand scheme of things and a fine fakeclaim. other shit is irrelevant.


NE means it harms town not evils, NE is meant to be a indirect ally to all other evils and and enemy of town its not meant to be able to harm evils,

stating how a role is a certain way now doesn't mean it should stay that way, BMG does change existing roles because they see they are unbalanced or unfair look at how spy and disguiser were reworked



bro i know all this shit, but if an evil is harmed in the process of a jester completing his goal, oh fucking well LMAO. jester doesn't really give a fuck about other evils as much as it cares about causing chaos and giving evils more time to work with. if one of them is stupid enough to vote on an evil, that's there fault.


saying you know a role is unbalanced but its ok cause only dumb evils get hurt by it is not logical at all, if it breaks the roles of an alignment it needs to be reworked,

it needs to be reworked or changed to NC alignment cause it definitely shouldn't be NE if it can kill other evils

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:36 pm
by Schultz128
tldr switch Executioner/Jester to NB and make it so Witch can win after death so they can work more daringly to sponge up shots or take risks for Mafia/Neutral Killer

Anything that has a wincon besides eliminating another faction or being the last one should be considered as NB as they are interested in their own goals and mindsets and in theory don't care who they help or fuck over, so long as they win.

Neutral Evils by Town of Salem standards should be scum sided only.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:42 pm
by Villagerlover
Mystoc wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again because I still stand by it.



It's an interesting role.
But it shouldn't replace the current jester.

Make it another role to put under the Neutral Evil category. Or put it somewhere else. I'm not too sure where you think it would fit best, but it should certainly not replace a key aspect of the game.


it does the same thing as jester though i think it should NC though not NB if reworked has NB doesnt apear in ranked anymore and jester definitely should be able to appear in ranked, it to similar to jstor for it not replace it thats the problem


But it doesn't do the same thing as the current jester in the aspect of psychological voting.
People don't really care about sheep voting. They care more about being personally attacked, and that's what prevents the voting. People could care less about lynching a jester as long as it doesn't effect them personally (Not team). Being haunted by a jester is a lot more devastating to someone rather than wasting a day/night.


On top of that, it still has some pretty major flaws for it's goal.
This doesn't resolve the fact that this "new" jester can still be used as a weapon (in fact, I think it's more leaning towards that). Evils can just get majority and lynch this jester anyway and punish the town for it.
And it's definitely more town-sided if it's not abused in the previous way I just mentioned. It's a LOT more likely for this role to be killed at night rather than being lynched during the day. Therefore, evils are almost certainly going to be the ones taking the harsher blows from this role (and they have it bad enough already).

And above all else, I think the current jester is ultimately the better one because it's goal is challenging. Getting yourself lynched is surprisingly difficult if players are smart enough to see past your speech. And no jester strategy has ever 100% worked. And that's what it made the jester so challenging.
However, this new role has the ability to win by being killed at night. No role should ever be like that. Even if it has to "predict" it.

If this role replaced the jester, we can expect to see this new weapon being utilized by either side rather than it being an individual person trying to trick everyone. We can also expect to see less jester plays, and more of someone trying to take the easier route, and predict when they will be killed at night instead of trying to appear suspicious to everyone during the day to get themselves lynched.


Again, it's a great role idea! I think it definitely has good potential as a neutral role. And I wouldn't mind seeing it in ranked games.
But it should not replace the current jester.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:45 pm
by Mystoc
it's different enough to be its own role true

but it doesn't solve jesters problem of being able to harm evils if jestor is still in the game the problem isn't fixed OP made this rework to solve that problem not make a new a role

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:46 pm
by Villagerlover
Mystoc wrote:it's different enough to be its own role true

but it doesn't solve jesters problem of being able to harm evils if jestor is still in the game the problem isn't fixed



But that's just it.

I just said in my previous reply.

This Jester rework doesn't solve that problem at all. It would certainly harm evil roles more often than townies since it's easier to die at night rather than get itself lynched during the day.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:53 pm
by Mystoc
Villagerlover wrote:
Mystoc wrote:it's different enough to be its own role true

but it doesn't solve jesters problem of being able to harm evils if jestor is still in the game the problem isn't fixed



But that's just it.

I just said in my previous reply.

It doesn't solve that problem at all. It would certainly harm evil roles more often than townies since it's easier to die at night rather than get itself lynched during the day.


he fixed the problem by removing it entirely though

he changed the alignment so its not NE though sure it hurts evils now but it also helps them more way too

i think this fits better has NC though not NB it certainly causes chaos isn't that very essence of what pranks do?

its kinda a good thing for evils cause everyone not being able to hang for one day is insanely good for them much better than a jester randomly killing a town for them (keep in mind this could ended up being an evil not a town no fear of that anymore)

sure it can hurt evils too but if jestor is ever hanged it helps evils a lot more imagine town not being able to hang late game for one day its a swing of 2-3 votes for evils, jester dies loose of a vote

mafia / NK kills someone because town cant vote them the next day

suddenly town no longer has voting majority

i would say its a buff to to town a but helps evils a bit more and removes the risk of old jester killing evils too

the not being able to kill only applies to the evil role who did the kill not everyone while if jestor gets hanged no one can get hanged the next



i

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:28 pm
by Parallax7
Please stop by the lovely Kirize12’s thread concerning Executioner.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=33368

It is our solution for the Executioner problem.
The Jailor’s execution dilemma will remain the same. This role’s presence inherently nerfs Jailor, and increases risk reward - which is an excellent change in the game. Overall I love this concept change.

Thoughts on removing this role’s ability to prevent Bodyguard from being kill capable, and Werewolf sharing the fate of the other NKs? I definitely think the consistency should remain, this role is not at fault, the Werewolf’s lack of balance is, I’m afraid.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:35 pm
by K1llthestory
Mystoc wrote:
K1llthestory wrote:
Mystoc wrote:
K1llthestory wrote:jester's fine. it's neutral evil. it doesn't give a fuck who it harms, but it's a necessary role in the grand scheme of things and a fine fakeclaim. other shit is irrelevant.


NE means it harms town not evils, NE is meant to be a indirect ally to all other evils and and enemy of town its not meant to be able to harm evils,

stating how a role is a certain way now doesn't mean it should stay that way, BMG does change existing roles because they see they are unbalanced or unfair look at how spy and disguiser were reworked



bro i know all this shit, but if an evil is harmed in the process of a jester completing his goal, oh fucking well LMAO. jester doesn't really give a fuck about other evils as much as it cares about causing chaos and giving evils more time to work with. if one of them is stupid enough to vote on an evil, that's there fault.


saying you know a role is unbalanced but its ok cause only dumb evils get hurt by it is not logical at all, if it breaks the roles of an alignment it needs to be reworked,

it needs to be reworked or changed to NC alignment cause it definitely shouldn't be NE if it can kill other evils

just shut up.

jester doesn't need a change. it's good as a fakeclaim for ne's, and it provides a necessary detriment for town play where they can't single handedly dominate day play.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:39 pm
by Mystoc
claiming jester is never a good claim to claim...

his reworked version still deters town from voting susp people not be able to vote for a whole day is a huge downside

yea we are done discussing this lets agree to disagree you are repeating the same thing

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:39 pm
by orangeandblack5
K1ll, why do you believe that Town would dominate day play if Jester wasn't around?

Because I feel like we've both played games without a Jester where the Town does not dominate the day, so I'm struggling to see where exactly this argument comes from. Maybe I'm missing something you brought up in a previous post, and if so I apologize, but I am curious nonetheless.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:15 pm
by Joacgroso
Just change jester and exe to NB or replace NE with witch in ranked, and fixed.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:45 pm
by HereThereEverywhere
Making them NB cements their place as kingmakers. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but that means they're not in Ranked, and they shouldn't be in Ranked.

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:46 pm
by orangeandblack5
That would be quite an acceptable stopgam measure.