Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Implement my Jester?

Yes!
25
38%
Yes, but as a new role!
18
28%
No!
22
34%
 
Total votes : 65

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:21 am

Except it's original influence is preserved and amplified. Let me know when it dawns upon you.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:40 am

Parallax7 wrote:Except it's original influence is preserved and amplified. Let me know when it dawns upon you.



So it's "original influence is preserved and amplified"?
Great. My point has been proven. It's sharp enough to stay in the game for the sake of psychological gameplay, and shouldn't be replaced.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:39 pm

Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:23 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
Spectre0 wrote:I don't really see why Jester needs to be changed.

"Swings the alignment"? What?

Jester absolutely supports evils.


Jester supports evildoers ~ in retrospect, it does not.

Scum doesn't deserve to be panalzied for poor play when something that exists to support them is what punishes them. Not to mention, this very paradox's severity is amplified by the fact, two scum for the price of one for Town is absolutely absurd.

Yeah, nothing says evil doer support like that.



The witch could do the exact same thing.
Punish the Mafia (even if they did play pretty well) by unintentionally controlling them to target others and ruin plans, waste abilities, or even worse. Make the Mafia kill each other.

And the Mafia don't even have to do anything wrong. It's just a thing that can happen.

Any "evil doer support" has its drawbacks. The ones the witch could cause are a lot worse than that of which a jester could do

The thing is that if you hurt evils as witch, you are a bad witch. But if you don't have to be unskilled in order to hurt evils as jester, since you don't really care what happens to them.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:38 pm

Suggestions:
Jester could just become a Neutral benign (Yea it can kill being a NB but Amne can already remember a killing role and it's only one kill role) and executioner could change so that It's target can be anyone (like GA)

or Jester when lynch'd could force town not to vote the next day. (A bad thing happens from lynching the jester but not effecting the evils)

I don't think jester needs a massive "change"
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:41 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:Suggestions:
Jester could just become a Neutral benign (Yea it can kill being a NB but Amne can already remember a killing role) and it's only one kill role so could exe (remove that it has to lynch town.)

or Jester when lynch'd could force town not to vote the next day. (A bad thing happens from lynching the jester but not effecting the evils)

I don't think jester needs a massive "change"

Chaging him to NB would be enough. About the exe, it would be nice if his goal changed to "live to see the town lose the game" if his target is killed, along with losing his immunity. Also, he should win the game if his target died to a jailor or vigilante. The only problem I see is that evils would be encouraged to kill exe's target, and that he could ally with a witch in order to win, so I'm not sure.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:51 pm

exe's goal is kind of non town sided the only bad side is that once his target is lynch'd exe can side with anyone.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:54 pm

If an Executioner decides to help Town, they gain a night-immune Citizen. They are allowed to do that, which completely ruins the point of lynching a Townie. Neutral Evil as a whole could use a lot of love, and fixing Jester in any way would be great.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:56 pm

Executioner would fit into neutral benign if they removed that it's target HAS to be mafia

Exe isn't that sided but I do agree
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:00 pm

Exe with a non-Town target would be too easy.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:02 pm

Not really because they could still be town It would be a lot easier (Maybe make it not immune?).
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby TrueGuardian32 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:04 pm

I don't get why we don't make it where Jester is mafia already. It would scare the town a TON.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:06 pm

TrueGuardian32 wrote:I don't get why we don't make it where Jester is mafia already. It would scare the town a TON.

Because it would be worse than having a disguiser. A 1x1 trade never favors mafia. That's why they don't want to hit someone protected by a bodyguard.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby TrueGuardian32 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:09 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
TrueGuardian32 wrote:I don't get why we don't make it where Jester is mafia already. It would scare the town a TON.

Because it would be worse than having a disguiser. A 1x1 trade never favors mafia. That's why they don't want to hit someone protected by a bodyguard.


True, but it would make it where Jester helps mafia. It would also scare the town making them worried about lynching mafia.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:12 pm

kookeekwisp wrote:Are they lazy & prefer the Graveyard over Player numbers? Try scimitar on the left.

But isn't prefering numbers lazier than prefering names?
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:12 pm

TrueGuardian32 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:
TrueGuardian32 wrote:I don't get why we don't make it where Jester is mafia already. It would scare the town a TON.

Because it would be worse than having a disguiser. A 1x1 trade never favors mafia. That's why they don't want to hit someone protected by a bodyguard.


It would also scare the town making them worried about lynching mafia.

Town shouldn't be worried about lynching a mafia.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:23 pm

Parallax7 wrote:Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.



Your dynamic for this role change doesn't preserve the jester. It changes it into a entirely different concept. (For the improvement of game balance? Absolutely)
But the original jester still has a personal attack feeling that's a lot less wanted over a team attack.



That's why I think this idea should be a new role of its own instead of just replacing the current jester. I think it would be a lot better to be honest cause not only do you have to fear a personal haunt from a mislynch, but you have to look out for a team attack as well. It's a nice blend of to help further discourage careless lynching.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:00 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.



Your dynamic for this role change doesn't preserve the jester. It changes it into a entirely different concept. (For the improvement of game balance? Absolutely)
But the original jester still has a personal attack feeling that's a lot less wanted over a team attack.



That's why I think this idea should be a new role of its own instead of just replacing the current jester. I think it would be a lot better to be honest cause not only do you have to fear a personal haunt from a mislynch, but you have to look out for a team attack as well. It's a nice blend of to help further discourage careless lynching.

Town is already punished for careless lynching, losing a townie.
If town lynched scum, they deserve to live. Scum shouldn't live because "oh he might be a jester", as it promotes bad play and is an undeserved win
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:34 pm

marlony1 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.



Your dynamic for this role change doesn't preserve the jester. It changes it into a entirely different concept. (For the improvement of game balance? Absolutely)
But the original jester still has a personal attack feeling that's a lot less wanted over a team attack.



That's why I think this idea should be a new role of its own instead of just replacing the current jester. I think it would be a lot better to be honest cause not only do you have to fear a personal haunt from a mislynch, but you have to look out for a team attack as well. It's a nice blend of to help further discourage careless lynching.

Town is already punished for careless lynching, losing a townie.
If town lynched scum, they deserve to live. Scum shouldn't live because "oh he might be a jester", as it promotes bad play and is an undeserved win



Having a jester in-game doesn't "promote bad play". It makes people more careful about who they want to lynch. Regardless of their faction.

Also, if you're able to trick people into lynching you without being an "obvious jester" than you totally deserve the win.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.



Your dynamic for this role change doesn't preserve the jester. It changes it into a entirely different concept. (For the improvement of game balance? Absolutely)
But the original jester still has a personal attack feeling that's a lot less wanted over a team attack.



That's why I think this idea should be a new role of its own instead of just replacing the current jester. I think it would be a lot better to be honest cause not only do you have to fear a personal haunt from a mislynch, but you have to look out for a team attack as well. It's a nice blend of to help further discourage careless lynching.

Town is already punished for careless lynching, losing a townie.
If town lynched scum, they deserve to live. Scum shouldn't live because "oh he might be a jester", as it promotes bad play and is an undeserved win



Having a jester in-game doesn't "promote bad play". It makes people more careful about who they want to lynch. Regardless of their faction.
Which promotes bad play. It makes people avoid obvious scum... there's a big difference between making people be careful and legit letting someone who claims GF live.
Also, if you're able to trick people into lynching you without being an "obvious jester" than you totally deserve the win.
You deserve to win as a jester, but if you're a scum and trick town into you being an obvious jester, by literally sucking at the game, you don't deserve it.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:08 pm

I really love playing as jester, but I also hate playing against one, since differencing a jester and a bad player is impossible. At least I think BMG should replace the NE slot in ranked with a witch, so jesters can't roll in ranked and NK actually has a chance.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby xxSet » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:24 pm

I like jester tbh. This could be a totally different role that co exists with jester maybe? That would be cool
Not sure what the name would be though
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:11 pm

marlony1 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.



Your dynamic for this role change doesn't preserve the jester. It changes it into a entirely different concept. (For the improvement of game balance? Absolutely)
But the original jester still has a personal attack feeling that's a lot less wanted over a team attack.



That's why I think this idea should be a new role of its own instead of just replacing the current jester. I think it would be a lot better to be honest cause not only do you have to fear a personal haunt from a mislynch, but you have to look out for a team attack as well. It's a nice blend of to help further discourage careless lynching.

Town is already punished for careless lynching, losing a townie.
If town lynched scum, they deserve to live. Scum shouldn't live because "oh he might be a jester", as it promotes bad play and is an undeserved win



Having a jester in-game doesn't "promote bad play". It makes people more careful about who they want to lynch. Regardless of their faction.
Which promotes bad play. It makes people avoid obvious scum... there's a big difference between making people be careful and legit letting someone who claims GF live.
Also, if you're able to trick people into lynching you without being an "obvious jester" than you totally deserve the win.
You deserve to win as a jester, but if you're a scum and trick town into you being an obvious jester, by literally sucking at the game, you don't deserve it.



Uh.
That's the great thing about Town of Salem dude.
There are plenty of people that get away with their deeds all the time by acting like a jester.

You claimed godfather as The Godfather, trying to pass yourself off as an obvious jester?
And a Vigilante nor Jailor did anything about it? Well...that's the town's fault for letting you live. Therefore, you deserve the win for taking advantage of reverse psychology.


There is nothing wrong with using a "reverse psychology" tactic. Especially considering how common and unusually successful it is...
I don't think this particular Mafia game should always be centered around this bold idea of acting like Town as scum in order to win.


I think this role would fit neatly in its own little world if it coexisted with the jester instead of blatantly replacing it
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby SkyyRawrr » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:30 am

I personally love the idea. But I think this role should be it's own role and not taking over the Jesters already existing role. I love playing Jester (And it's honestly one of my favorite roles to play) It also doesn't really bother me playing against one either. It's all part of the game. But like I said .. I do like the role idea otherwise.

Probably will be an unpopular opinion and that's quite alright with me.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:05 am

Villagerlover wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Your point doesn't prove current Jester is good, it proves its intended purposes is, my change preserves said purpose and improves upon.



Your dynamic for this role change doesn't preserve the jester. It changes it into a entirely different concept. (For the improvement of game balance? Absolutely)
But the original jester still has a personal attack feeling that's a lot less wanted over a team attack.



That's why I think this idea should be a new role of its own instead of just replacing the current jester. I think it would be a lot better to be honest cause not only do you have to fear a personal haunt from a mislynch, but you have to look out for a team attack as well. It's a nice blend of to help further discourage careless lynching.

Town is already punished for careless lynching, losing a townie.
If town lynched scum, they deserve to live. Scum shouldn't live because "oh he might be a jester", as it promotes bad play and is an undeserved win



Having a jester in-game doesn't "promote bad play". It makes people more careful about who they want to lynch. Regardless of their faction.
Which promotes bad play. It makes people avoid obvious scum... there's a big difference between making people be careful and legit letting someone who claims GF live.
Also, if you're able to trick people into lynching you without being an "obvious jester" than you totally deserve the win.
You deserve to win as a jester, but if you're a scum and trick town into you being an obvious jester, by literally sucking at the game, you don't deserve it.



Uh.
That's the great thing about Town of Salem dude.
There are plenty of people that get away with their deeds all the time by acting like a jester.
Which shouldn't be given an unfair advantage, it's literally impossible to tell the difference between evil or jester. No that's not skillful to say scummy garbage. So don't say "It takes a lot of skill DUDE"

You claimed godfather as The Godfather, trying to pass yourself off as an obvious jester?
And a Vigilante nor Jailor did anything about it? Well...that's the town's fault for letting you live. Therefore, you deserve the win for taking advantage of reverse psychology.
And if there's no killing roles...


There is nothing wrong with using a "reverse psychology" tactic. Especially considering how common and unusually successful it is...
I don't think this particular Mafia game should always be centered around this bold idea of acting like Town as scum in order to win.


I think this role would fit neatly in its own little world if it coexisted with the jester instead of blatantly replacing it
It really wouldn't. If it added fear in lynching combined with killing, it'd be a mess. Maybe as an NC, but it doesn't fit in with all the other roles.

You really shouldn't take away town's only killing tool (Without killing roles) and they shouldn't be punished for doing their job, lynching scum.
You failed at successfully tricking the town, so you don't deserve to be passed off as "obvious jest". Even then, it also doesn't help evils at all, as the role's goal is to die. That's ALSO bad. It could care less about scum and it's even a strategy to reveal as jester and help town kill the scum, while on the last day, you get lynched and kill scum. Witch can't do this and Executioner can do this, but that's for another story.


Also, it's fun to play as jester, but annoying to play against one. So nah, it's not fun for everyone either. Especially when im scum.
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