Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Implement my Jester?

Yes!
25
38%
Yes, but as a new role!
18
27%
No!
23
35%
 
Total votes : 66

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:31 pm

Gooose26 wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Neutral(Killing) doesn't need kingmakers. There is this thing called it wins all 1v1 scenarios, and plays good.

Let me know when it occurs to you, by design, NKs aren't meant to win the game. Town and Mafia both have attributes, and pros that NK does not; and NK has both their cons. It's at fundamental disadvantage, and using kingmakers as a crutch is pretty weak when you take into account they have a choice with who they side with. Which stifles your argument entirely.

If Neutral Killing is supposed to lose then why is it in ranked? Like seriously you can randomly get a chance at a free loss? That's absolute bulls**t

And sure NK wins in 1v1 but what about 2v1? If there was a kingmaker to go with that, 2v2 is a victory. IT is weak but what else do you have to rely on when the game hates you?


If NK got itself into a situation where its two Mafia vs itself, it didnt play well enough.
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#DontChangeTheJestersAbilities

Postby Villagerlover » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:57 pm

Hmmm so after really thinking about this entire thread for a while, I think I have some final thoughts.
I don't like this change.....for the Jester that is.

I would rather this be an entirely new role on it's own, with tweaks to where:
1) It won't be able to win by dying at night. No role should ever be able to die at night to win. Even if it is limited, I think that is way too easy of a victory.
2) It's more anti-town. The people who are responsible for kills are almost always evil roles (I would like to randomly throw in the guess of about...88% of the time? Sounds reasonable to me). Which means that, generally speaking, a Jester almost always dies to evil roles at night like any other non-evil role. Which, in turn, harms evil roles way more than town. And I don't think there needs to be a Neutral Benign role that harms evils more than townies. We already got plenty of those.
3) Doesn't make things harder for the NK roles. (Especially the part where the Arsonist auto-kills the Jester).

I still believe that the value of the original Jester's intentions are greater than this new attempt at making a more balanced game.
In my opinion, I don't think Townies should always be lynch-happy. The very idea of a Jester is still a very commonly used excuse to deter lynches, stall the time for evils, and overall, ignore certain players that are really trying hard to prove they are worth being heard. The idea of a role that can win by getting itself lynched anytime, and killing a guilty voter is pretty good for anti-town purposes in my opinion.



To conclude, I don't think this role should be the new Jester. I think it should just be an entirely new role on it's own.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:00 pm

Parallax7 wrote:Neutral(Killing) doesn't need kingmakers. There is this thing called it wins all 1v1 scenarios, and plays good.

Let me know when it occurs to you, by design, NKs aren't meant to win the game. Town and Mafia both have attributes, and pros that NK does not; and NK has both their cons. It's at fundamental disadvantage, and using kingmakers as a crutch is pretty weak when you take into account they have a choice with who they side with. Which stifles your argument entirely.

Neutral killing needs kingmakers in order to win, especially the SK. The WW might get lucky and kill everyone but him and other player (or end up in a kingmaking scenario), and the arso might ignite and do the same (however arsos rarely are able to do this because they are caught earlier due to the lack of kpn), but SK can't be in a 1 vs 1 scenario without a kingmaker. They must be in the final 3 before. If they are against 2 townies, there won't be enough claimspace, and they will probably be confirmed anyway. The only way the SK can win is if he ends up in a 1 vs 1 vs 1 scenario, while other NK also need kingmakers in order to win most of times.
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Re: #DontChangeTheJestersAbilities

Postby Gooose26 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:57 pm

Villagerlover wrote:Hmmm so after really thinking about this entire thread for a while, I think I have some final thoughts.
I don't like this change.....for the Jester that is.

I would rather this be an entirely new role on it's own, with tweaks to where:
1) It won't be able to win by dying at night. No role should ever be able to die at night to win. Even if it is limited, I think that is way too easy of a victory. Why not? You didn't give any reason/logic, just your belief, so I'm not convinced. Give your logic
2) It's more anti-town. The people who are responsible for kills are almost always evil roles (I would like to randomly throw in the guess of about...88% of the time? Sounds reasonable to me). Which means that, generally speaking, a Jester almost always dies to evil roles at night like any other non-evil role. Which, in turn, harms evil roles way more than town. And I don't think there needs to be a Neutral Benign role that harms evils more than townies. We already got plenty of those. Killing is about equal for town against mafia. At least until the end when evils get the majority, but otherwise they kill at the same rate for the most part. This is because of something we call majority, with the ability to lynch. If you canfind and prove somebody as an evil, then you lynch them anonymously with the rest of the town. That is a kill, and that will trigger Jester in this overhaul. The same thing aorks for mafia killing, neutral killing kills, and Jailor + Town (Killing). Overall it's pretty equal with that logic, you completely took lynching out of the picture, which is why your 88% isn't even close, at all
3) Doesn't make things harder for the NK roles. (Especially the part where the Arsonist auto-kills the Jester). Does being killed for helping kill a scum and being haunted at night help Arsonist? And it can hurt anybody, it's a lot more likely that an Arsonist will target people who aren't acting scummy and claim a vulnerable role. But this can also help arsonist a lot, due to the lack of lynching if the jester is lynched

I still believe that the value of the original Jester's intentions are greater than this new attempt at making a more balanced game.
In my opinion, I don't think Townies should always be lynch-happy. The very idea of a Jester is still a very commonly used excuse to deter lynches, stall the time for evils, and overall, ignore certain players that are really trying hard to prove they are worth being heard. The idea of a role that can win by getting itself lynched anytime, and killing a guilty voter is pretty good for anti-town purposes in my opinion. Again this Jester can still be triggered by lynching. It has the same abilities of the normal jester, just that it isnmt passive and can also work at night



To conclude, I don't think this role should be the new Jester. I think it should just be an entirely new role on it's own. Well if this was a new role, then this wouldnmt help fix how the current Jester is trash. To lynch a jester, then the mafia often lead the town, this means that the mafia voted against the jester, leading to a mafia member having a good chance of being haunted. And if a neutral evil just hurts evils, then it shouldn't be a neutral evil, it should be town. Does this work as a townie? No. #JestFixIt
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby TheNightmareFox » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:14 pm

2 things one lol i love pick yes or yes
and b its a really good idea
jester itself needs this change
Man I can't come up with anything good to put here
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Re: #DontChangeTheJestersAbilities

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:05 pm

Gooose26 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:Hmmm so after really thinking about this entire thread for a while, I think I have some final thoughts.
I don't like this change.....for the Jester that is.

I would rather this be an entirely new role on it's own, with tweaks to where:
1) It won't be able to win by dying at night. No role should ever be able to die at night to win. Even if it is limited, I think that is way too easy of a victory. Why not? You didn't give any reason/logic, just your belief, so I'm not convinced. Give your logic
Well....isn't it pretty self-explanatory? Dying at night is the one thing that happens to everyone at some point. Roles should not have the ability to win by dying at night because that is ridiculously common. The lynching of a jester is a lot less likely to happen than the murder of one. Which means this role would have the ability to put even less effort into his victory. Roles should have to work for their victory.

2) It's more anti-town. The people who are responsible for kills are almost always evil roles (I would like to randomly throw in the guess of about...88% of the time? Sounds reasonable to me). Which means that, generally speaking, a Jester almost always dies to evil roles at night like any other non-evil role. Which, in turn, harms evil roles way more than town. And I don't think there needs to be a Neutral Benign role that harms evils more than townies. We already got plenty of those. Killing is about equal for town against mafia. At least until the end when evils get the majority, but otherwise they kill at the same rate for the most part. This is because of something we call majority, with the ability to lynch. If you canfind and prove somebody as an evil, then you lynch them anonymously with the rest of the town. That is a kill, and that will trigger Jester in this overhaul. The same thing aorks for mafia killing, neutral killing kills, and Jailor + Town (Killing). Overall it's pretty equal with that logic, you completely took lynching out of the picture, which is why your 88% isn't even close, at all
I didn't include lynching because I'm referring to night kills. Night kills are way more common than players being lynched. Vigilantes, Jailor executions, and veteran kills are a lot less common than dying to a bullet wound from the Mafia or being stabbed by a serial killer. That means it's a lot more likely for a jester to harm evil roles because it's a lot easier to die at night than during the day in general. So this makes it a little more anti-evil because evils are a lot more likely to be the reason the jester dies.
3) Doesn't make things harder for the NK roles. (Especially the part where the Arsonist auto-kills the Jester). Does being killed for helping kill a scum and being haunted at night help Arsonist? And it can hurt anybody, it's a lot more likely that an Arsonist will target people who aren't acting scummy and claim a vulnerable role. But this can also help arsonist a lot, due to the lack of lynching if the jester is lynched
I understand where you're coming from, but the Arsonist auto-dousing and auto-igniting a jester using a prank at night is just flat out ridiculous. It harms all the other Arsonists, stalls the Arsonist's valuable and almost necessary time, and reveals to the town that there is an Arsonist without harming any of the already doused targets. That seems a lot more strict and anti-Arsonist versus a Serial Killer not being able to stab people for the next night.

I still believe that the value of the original Jester's intentions are greater than this new attempt at making a more balanced game.
In my opinion, I don't think Townies should always be lynch-happy. The very idea of a Jester is still a very commonly used excuse to deter lynches, stall the time for evils, and overall, ignore certain players that are really trying hard to prove they are worth being heard. The idea of a role that can win by getting itself lynched anytime, and killing a guilty voter is pretty good for anti-town purposes in my opinion. Again this Jester can still be triggered by lynching. It has the same abilities of the normal jester, just that it isnmt passive and can also work at night
A trigger by lynching only harms the town. A trigger by death from town at night only harms town killing and a Bodyguard. But a death from evil roles at night prevents that faction from killing.
This is nothing at all like the current jester. The play style and effects of it's death will change the town's perspective on jesters entirely by making them a lot more lynch-happy.
Which, again, in my opinion, isn't a good thing. They should still have something to fear as individuals because they'll care a lot less if it's a team attack versus a personal attack.




To conclude, I don't think this role should be the new Jester. I think it should just be an entirely new role on it's own. Well if this was a new role, then this wouldnmt help fix how the current Jester is trash. To lynch a jester, then the mafia often lead the town, this means that the mafia voted against the jester, leading to a mafia member having a good chance of being haunted. And if a neutral evil just hurts evils, then it shouldn't be a neutral evil, it should be town. Does this work as a townie? No. #JestFixIt

I wouldn't call it a trash role. The current Jester has the ability to exist, which sticks fear in the heart of all voters. The current jester makes it harder to decide if you'd like to vote someone because the idea of the person on trial being a jester is always a possibility to consider in the back of your head. Something that would be completely obliterated from their minds if this was it's new way of providing harm because now it's not a personal attack. The things that run through their heads are often something like "I don't wanna get killed cause I voted guilty."
And it should stay that way.



I'm not bashing this role idea into the ground. It could be a neat lil' neutral role on it's own. But I think the current jester serves a bigger purpose than what this role idea has to offer, and I would not like to see this replace it.


Also, I just now realized. Can't it still be used as a weapon?
If the evils happen to be the majority, they can all vote up the new jester, guilty them without care, and then harm the town without suffering any drawbacks.
I mean, I wouldn't care cause it's anti-town, but it might be slightly ridiculous in long terms as I would imagine.
Last edited by Villagerlover on Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:12 pm

My problem with that idea Villager is that it gives lesser skilled players an excuse for not lynching scummy people, and it gives scummy people an excuse to act scummy. Why should we allow people to act scummy under the veil of having a possible Jester rather than force them to act pro-Town or be lynched? Of course, in games with more skilled players, this excuse doesn't really work. The problem is that it would in games with less skilled players. We want those players to know that they have to act like Townies, and keeping Jester around to allow them to do the opposite and live isn't a good thing for them to do. The drawback of lynching is that you might be lynching Town and playing into scum's hands, because lynching is almost never a surefire way to get scum.
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Make it it's own role.

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:18 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:My problem with that idea Villager is that it gives lesser skilled players an excuse for not lynching scummy people, and it gives scummy people an excuse to act scummy. Why should we allow people to act scummy under the veil of having a possible Jester rather than force them to act pro-Town or be lynched? Of course, in games with more skilled players, this excuse doesn't really work. The problem is that it would in games with less skilled players. We want those players to know that they have to act like Townies, and keeping Jester around to allow them to do the opposite and live isn't a good thing for them to do. The drawback of lynching is that you might be lynching Town and playing into scum's hands, because lynching is almost never a surefire way to get scum.



At that point though, if smart townies are starting to find ways to deal with people "Acting scummy", then scum players should find new strategies to blend in as town.

Now, I don't necessarily believe that every person who plays the an evil role will get the idea that they can act like a jester to avoid attention as an anti-town role.
Some people just like playing with reverse psychology, and that's fine if it ends up working for them.

But I still don't think it "teaches" them to play reverse psychology every time they get Framer. As with any role, if something started not working out for them, then they should find new dynamics to be victorious.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby BPsycho2 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:46 pm

We shouldn't make it a new role, we should replace jester. I don't see the problem with that.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Spectre0 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:23 am

I don't really see why Jester needs to be changed.

"Swings the alignment"? What?

Jester absolutely supports evils.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:16 am

Spectre0 wrote:I don't really see why Jester needs to be changed.

"Swings the alignment"? What?

Jester absolutely supports evils.

Not really. He doesn't care if evils win or not. He only wants to get himself lynched, and after that he can haunt an evildoer if he wants, resulting in a 2 scum for the price of 1 for town. And since scum is most likely to vote guilty, they are haunted more often.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:02 am

Spectre0 wrote:I don't really see why Jester needs to be changed.

"Swings the alignment"? What?

Jester absolutely supports evils.

Killing evils = supports evils
suuuuuuuuuuure it does
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Spectre0 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:25 pm

Joacgroso wrote:Not really. He doesn't care if evils win or not. He only wants to get himself lynched, and after that he can haunt an evildoer if he wants, resulting in a 2 scum for the price of 1 for town. And since scum is most likely to vote guilty, they are haunted more often.



Witch doesn't care if any particular evil faction wins or not.

Scum that vote guilty need to git gud, they deserve to be haunted.

Jester is objectively more harmful to Town than evils, due to town majority and also the fact that time is a resource for Town more so than Mafia.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:28 pm

If Jester kills scum, then Town only benefits. If scum are voting guilty, they might be bad. Or they might be voting guilty where they think voting innocent would make them look suspicious.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:57 pm

Spectre0 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:Not really. He doesn't care if evils win or not. He only wants to get himself lynched, and after that he can haunt an evildoer if he wants, resulting in a 2 scum for the price of 1 for town. And since scum is most likely to vote guilty, they are haunted more often.



Witch doesn't care if any particular evil faction wins or not.

Scum that vote guilty need to git gud, they deserve to be haunted.

Jester is objectively more harmful to Town than evils, due to town majority and also the fact that time is a resource for Town more so than Mafia.

I don't get what's your point with the witch. She has to help scum in order to win, so it's a good NE. And the problem is that the jester can haunt mafia, who are more willing to push misslynchs. Sometimes they have to vote guilty because some people are voting inno.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Mystoc » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:53 pm

first very nice video you did a good job explaining your reasoning i agree jester huants should not be hurting other evils

but they way you approach this is bad i will explain why below

------------------------------------------------------------

if you move it to NB u wont see jester in ranked though, which kinda defeats the purpose of this rework jester is a very fun iconic role to play i love fooling people to hang me not getting it in ranked would suck

are you also proposing BMG reworks the ranked system so theres an NB slot? then that would make it so surv can appear in ranked which i heavily hate the idea of,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lastly the idea of a role having a set amount of uses of its win condition is just a bad idea it would be a very stressful role to play everyone would hate playing it ,

at least vet can still vote and help town win if it runs at alerts , the jester just dies thats way to harsh and anti fun and stressful you would not like playing your own role because its very stressful knowing if you run out alerts u just die.

give it a way to recharge alerts

like every two days it gets 1 alert back don't make it a set amount thats dumb

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
alternatively

why can't it stay NE just make evils immune to its haunting effect (cannot select them to huant at all)

why would an evil person feel guilty over hanging an innocent person anyway if anything they would think it was funny

-make it so if they are the only ones who voted they don't die
(they woulda been dead anyway by the haunting yea town will know they were evil casue they lived but they still need to take the time to kill them which is a delay in itself and an improvement)
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:09 pm

Spectre0 wrote:I don't really see why Jester needs to be changed.

"Swings the alignment"? What?

Jester absolutely supports evils.


Jester supports evildoers ~ in retrospect, it does not.

Scum doesn't deserve to be panalzied for poor play when something that exists to support them is what punishes them. Not to mention, this very paradox's severity is amplified by the fact, two scum for the price of one for Town is absolutely absurd.

Yeah, nothing says evil doer support like that.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:47 am

Parallax7 wrote:
Spectre0 wrote:I don't really see why Jester needs to be changed.

"Swings the alignment"? What?

Jester absolutely supports evils.


Jester supports evildoers ~ in retrospect, it does not.

Scum doesn't deserve to be panalzied for poor play when something that exists to support them is what punishes them. Not to mention, this very paradox's severity is amplified by the fact, two scum for the price of one for Town is absolutely absurd.

Yeah, nothing says evil doer support like that.



The witch could do the exact same thing.
Punish the Mafia (even if they did play pretty well) by unintentionally controlling them to target others and ruin plans, waste abilities, or even worse. Make the Mafia kill each other.

And the Mafia don't even have to do anything wrong. It's just a thing that can happen.

Any "evil doer support" has its drawbacks. The ones the witch could cause are a lot worse than that of which a jester could do
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Shilster » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:54 am

Parallax7 wrote:
Spectre0 wrote:I don't really see why Jester needs to be changed.

"Swings the alignment"? What?

Jester absolutely supports evils.


Jester supports evildoers ~ in retrospect, it does not.

Scum doesn't deserve to be panalzied for poor play when something that exists to support them is what punishes them. Not to mention, this very paradox's severity is amplified by the fact, two scum for the price of one for Town is absolutely absurd.

Yeah, nothing says evil doer support like that.


Remember, Town usually has majority early.

The chances of hitting town is way higher
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:22 am

@Village

Simple disruption happens. It's a double edged sword, and this mechanic with Witch is more or less skilled based. If you added Tactical Kills, it'd be minimized. Assuming you follow my YouTube, I'm sure you could see my video on the aforementioned.

Regardless, Jester's interaction with scum, creates a dilemma. What happens is you have a fundamentally broken mechanic, opposed to Witch's being poor play by the Witch, and you could argue gamethrowing if it's blatant. Jester can pursue a scum haunt blatantly. You don't understand how necessary a "Live to see the Town lose the game." win condition Is. Because they will always support scum much more, as they're more reliable, consistent, and balanced. The broken mechanic previously mentioned would be scum pursuing the Jester lynch to get a Town haunted, and it backfiring, by the way. It's also when Jester is lynched, and scum voted guilty wanting to improve its Town appeal, and it is haunted.

Independent winning is reserved for NB/NC. Jester wins independently. My Jester is Neutral Benign. Put two and two together.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:26 am

@Shilster

So if we apply your logic to this game, Jester shouldn't be changed, because it has a 70% chance to haunt town, and we should ignore the other 30%?

How do odds balance a role? They swing the role, if anything, and aren't reliable. Let's apply your argument to Vigilante, where its bullet would kill 70% of the time, and the other 30% of the time, it'd fail entirely.

See?
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Shilster » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:57 am

Parallax7 wrote:@Shilster

So if we apply your logic to this game, Jester shouldn't be changed, because it has a 70% chance to haunt town, and we should ignore the other 30%?

How do odds balance a role? They swing the role, if anything, and aren't reliable. Let's apply your argument to Vigilante, where its bullet would kill 70% of the time, and the other 30% of the time, it'd fail entirely.

See?


Jssters can go completely random when Vigs can only target some roles. It's actually quite different.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby DumbStorm » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:59 am

Shilster wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:@Shilster

So if we apply your logic to this game, Jester shouldn't be changed, because it has a 70% chance to haunt town, and we should ignore the other 30%?

How do odds balance a role? They swing the role, if anything, and aren't reliable. Let's apply your argument to Vigilante, where its bullet would kill 70% of the time, and the other 30% of the time, it'd fail entirely.

See?


Jssters can go completely random when Vigs can only target some roles. It's actually quite different.


Shil it is pretty fucking obvious what he meant
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby kookeekwisp » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:13 am

This entire game has a sort of "Roulette" vibe to it.
It's not RNG that kills you, it's player response. Whether it be Random-lynch or being N1'd by an Arsonist (lol), It was all done by human response. It's the same reason every role in the game can win just by AFKing; Even Amnesiac if they're bitten!

You can think of Pirate as just RNG garbage, but you can also look at it as an opportunity to be a Mentalist. Read people, judge their preferences & know what they'll choose in a duel. Are they lazy & prefer the Graveyard over Player numbers? Try scimitar on the left. Are they active & named after a ninja? They'll most likely sidestep if not backpedal, but never Chainmail.

Jester is different though, because they're a TRUE roulette. Nothing to the jester matters after they're lynched, unless it's on a whim, so their attack little to no bias whatsoever.

Not sure what it says about the NB shift, but i really need to sleep or my head will melt.
Favorite roles: Framer Survivor Trapper VampireHunter Consigliere Mafioso Escort Lookout Mayor Arsonist Disguiser Veteran Bodyguard Plaguebearer Medusa Blackmailer Executioner Doctor Crusader Vigilante Vampire PotionMaster Poisoner Transporter Jester Jailor Consort Ambusher Werewolf SerialKiller Hypnotist CovenLeader Pirate Godfather Sheriff Forger ??? Retributionist Amnesiac Investigator Necromancer Spy GuardianAngel Tracker Psychic HexMaster.

Kirize wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:Dont single out Arso cause it kills slower!
I didnt know you could contradict yourself in one sentence
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:35 am

Parallax7 wrote:@Village

Simple disruption happens. It's a double edged sword, and this mechanic with Witch is more or less skilled based. If you added Tactical Kills, it'd be minimized. Assuming you follow my YouTube, I'm sure you could see my video on the aforementioned.

Regardless, Jester's interaction with scum, creates a dilemma. What happens is you have a fundamentally broken mechanic, opposed to Witch's being poor play by the Witch, and you could argue gamethrowing if it's blatant. Jester can pursue a scum haunt blatantly. You don't understand how necessary a "Live to see the Town lose the game." win condition Is. Because they will always support scum much more, as they're more reliable, consistent, and balanced. The broken mechanic previously mentioned would be scum pursuing the Jester lynch to get a Town haunted, and it backfiring, by the way. It's also when Jester is lynched, and scum voted guilty wanting to improve its Town appeal, and it is haunted.

Independent winning is reserved for NB/NC. Jester wins independently. My Jester is Neutral Benign. Put two and two together.


Villagerlover wrote: I still believe that the value of the original Jester's intentions are greater than this new attempt at making a "more balanced" game.
In my opinion, I don't think Townies should always be lynch-happy. The very idea of a Jester is still a very commonly used excuse to deter lynches, stall the time for evils, and overall, ignore certain players that are really trying hard to prove they are worth being heard. The idea of a role that can win by getting itself lynched anytime, and killing a guilty voter is pretty good for anti-town purposes in my opinion.



- I don't think this role should be the new Jester. I think it should just be an entirely new role on it's own.
Wanna say somethin'? >B3
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