Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Implement my Jester?

Yes!
25
37%
Yes, but as a new role!
20
29%
No!
23
34%
 
Total votes : 68

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:15 pm

I don't think you understand how the game works -

Jester doesn't belong in the Neutral Evil alignment, and preventing Town from lynching the following day is overpowered ~ that's literally their only weapon for most purposes. It'd be like a role, that if its goal was accomplished, prevented all scum from preforming their party's kill. In competitive play, that'd fucking shift the game into the opposers' side.

That'd be retarded.

Now, my incarnation adopts that system, but provides each party and inverse ~ and allows the two to play off and manipulate the Jester to their advantage. Whoever plays better is rewarded with Jester's gift.
What that means for the game, is that Jester is an ideal Neutral Benign.

Your Jester is NOT an ideal Neutral Evil. Because it isn't reliant on scum, and cannot reliably work with them. Oppose to Witch or Warlock/Stalker who both can provide that.

You need prevelant and consistent NEs to salvage balance. I honestly believe you have no understanding of how Mafia genre or Town of Salem in general works.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:25 pm

Witch was removed from neutral evil... that would leave exe I agree jester killing scum shouldn't be allowed but removing the jester wouldn't do wonders for scum...
Also your version can stop scum kills/town actions how is making town un-able to lynch any worse...
I agree jester needs some changes but it doesn't need removing all together
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:18 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:Witch was removed from neutral evil... that would leave exe I agree jester killing scum shouldn't be allowed but removing the jester wouldn't do wonders for scum...
Also your version can stop scum kills/town actions how is making town un-able to lynch any worse...
I agree jester needs some changes but it doesn't need removing all together



The witch has been in the Neutral evil alignment since day 1...it still is.
Don't know what kinda pirated version of ToS you're playing, but it's not the right type.



I dunno how to really feel about this post.
It seems like a neat change to a role that is pretty well known in Town of Salem.

But at the same time, I would kind of miss the idea of "acting like a jester" as an evil role to make people ignore you.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:13 pm

Coven - Pirated version (you pay for it makes sense) and yeah I do understand most play normal salem (I play both honestly I like mafia better then coven)

Anyway I'm pretty sure jester was in it day one aswell..
I'm just saying wtich is a lot more harmful then the new jester idea (Witch is a extremely powerful Neutral evil in comparison to the others)
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:41 am

Soulshade55r wrote:I'm just saying wtich is a lot more harmful then the new jester idea (Witch is a extremely powerful Neutral evil in comparison to the others)


That is something I do agree with you on.

That's a partial problem with this new Jester Overhaul idea.
I do get that, if this gets reworked, then the Jester would be moved to Neutral Benign, but...that just makes less room in the Neutral Evil category, which makes it a lot more predictable. To add to that, I do believe that there is some sort of personal punishment for lynching the jester in the current state. Cause no one likes dying at night from a Jester Haunt. So this, in return, would cause people to be hesitant about voting.

If this version of the Jester makes it into the game, then town members will be a lot more lynch happy. I would rather the Jester directly harm one person versus punishing an entire faction.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:12 am

This jester will be worse for town in most cases (Sometimes it can be a blessing if you lose a mayor or jailor too jester)
Witch is a really powerful neutral evil role If I'm town I hope to god there is no witch
While witch can't kill they can get others to kill for them even leading people into a vet or using vigi they sometimes find jailor and tell mafia or even worse correctly guess there target and remove jailors execution ability while killing a town, and while I am kinda glad spy got a massive Nerf witch can whisper to mafia with no fear once one is found
RP has 4 mafia if there is a witch make that 5 or even a neutral killer helper witch is honestly the worse neutral evil to deal with

But I really love playing with witch and wouldn't mind seeing more neutral evils like witch.

Just saying this would fix jester add nerf town (which is kinda needed but also mafia need a nerf to give nks a slight chance when you look at the new "ranked")
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:29 pm

MIs lynching is a punishment because you're the one harming town, not evil.

This is why no one uses it as a strategy in Ranked, and the ones that do, are the ones that lose the game.

Evils shouldn't be rewarded by being scummy.
You're scummy.
You're lynched.

It also wouldn't be hard to make new neutral evils either, as the Role Ideas sub forum already did so.
So basically, no. It should be moved.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:05 pm

uhh why should jester be removed? you may say this is a "over haul" but you might has well get rid of jester and replace it with another role

My suggestion was perfectly fine, a way of changing jester to only harm town like exe does...
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:41 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:uhh why should jester be removed? you may say this is a "over haul" but you might has well get rid of jester and replace it with another role

My suggestion was perfectly fine, a way of changing jester to only harm town like exe does...

Look.
Neutral Evils takes skill to use.
If you're just rewarded with only killing town because the role is broken as it is, then it's still a bad role, with a cop out change.

Witch and Executioner helps evils a lot, that's their goal. But they can mess up.
Jester being rewarded with kill town only is broken as hell, and is a change which was made because the role was broken as hell.

"BUT MARZAKI1, THIS JUST PROOFES THET NEUTREL EVELS MESS UP ELL THE TEM."
Yes, Neutral Evils mess up. But they don't mess up on purpose.

THEIR GOAL IS TO HARM TOWN

NAME ONE THING IN JESTERS ROLE CARD THAT SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT KILLING TOWN.

"Bat it has lek a 4/5 in 15 chance of killing scum."

Which is RNG to help/harm scum when your goal is legit Neutral Evil. I'm sorry, but no.

But witch is RNG and swing-

No. No. And. No.
It actually takes skill to get the right targets and whisper to each and every one of them.

But Executioner is RNG and swing-

Also no.
As it takes a lot of fake claims and effort to successfully lynch someone.

----

It takes no skill to be a jester
Instead all you do is say some scummy crap and get lynched.
In which you'll probably get someone saying "I'll take the hint" like 1% of the time.
Then when you're lynched you don't say "YES! I successfully harmed town!" You say, "oh, cool I win."

----

Also bringing up another point. You shouldn't be rewarded for being scummy. Good day sir.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:45 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:uhh why should jester be removed? you may say this is a "over haul" but you might has well get rid of jester and replace it with another role

My suggestion was perfectly fine, a way of changing jester to only harm town like exe does...


Executioner doesn't only harm Town.

Let's make something clear ~
Once it wins it can side with anybody. Siding with Town defeats the purpose of it being Neutral Evil to begin with. To make matters worse, Jester is no better. It's intended purpose is nullified when it haunts scum.

Oppose to Witch who will always lose without scum, and cannot side against it intentionally, lest it wishes to gamethrow or (god forbid) kingmake. That's a problem in an of itself, but I digress. Witch doesn't have a fundamentally broken interaction, like Jester either.. Assuming we filled the gap of Jester being realigned with Warlock, Stalker, or Necromorph everything would work out fine and dandy. In addition to improving the state of Neutral Evil.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:47 pm

Parallax7 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:uhh why should jester be removed? you may say this is a "over haul" but you might has well get rid of jester and replace it with another role

My suggestion was perfectly fine, a way of changing jester to only harm town like exe does...


Executioner doesn't only harm Town.

Let's make something clear ~
Once it wins it can side with anybody. Siding with Town defeats the purpose of it being Neutral Evil to begin with. To make matters worse, Jester is no better. It's intended purpose is nullified when it haunts scum.

Oppose to Witch who will always lose without scum, and cannot side against it intentionally, lest it wishes to gamethrow or (god forbid) kingmake. That's a proenlem in an of itself. Or have a fundamentally broken interaction with it. Assuming we filled the gap of Jester being realigned with Warlock, Stalker, or Necromorph everything would work out from me and dandy. In addition to improving the state of Neutral Evil.

Which is why a lot of people agree they should add the "Leaving" death.

Every time an Executioner lynched a target, they "Leave"
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:48 pm

marlony1 wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:uhh why should jester be removed? you may say this is a "over haul" but you might has well get rid of jester and replace it with another role

My suggestion was perfectly fine, a way of changing jester to only harm town like exe does...


Executioner doesn't only harm Town.

Let's make something clear ~
Once it wins it can side with anybody. Siding with Town defeats the purpose of it being Neutral Evil to begin with. To make matters worse, Jester is no better. It's intended purpose is nullified when it haunts scum.

Oppose to Witch who will always lose without scum, and cannot side against it intentionally, lest it wishes to gamethrow or (god forbid) kingmake. That's a proenlem in an of itself. Or have a fundamentally broken interaction with it. Assuming we filled the gap of Jester being realigned with Warlock, Stalker, or Necromorph everything would work out from me and dandy. In addition to improving the state of Neutral Evil.

Which is why a lot of people agree they should add the "Leaving" death.

Every time an Executioner lynched a target, they "Leave"



There's still the imbalance in the fact it doesn't support scum on the level Witch does. Nor is it an ideal Neutral(Evil).
Lack of balance.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:04 pm

Parallax7 wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:uhh why should jester be removed? you may say this is a "over haul" but you might has well get rid of jester and replace it with another role

My suggestion was perfectly fine, a way of changing jester to only harm town like exe does...


Executioner doesn't only harm Town.

Let's make something clear ~
Once it wins it can side with anybody. Siding with Town defeats the purpose of it being Neutral Evil to begin with. To make matters worse, Jester is no better. It's intended purpose is nullified when it haunts scum.

Oppose to Witch who will always lose without scum, and cannot side against it intentionally, lest it wishes to gamethrow or (god forbid) kingmake. That's a proenlem in an of itself. Or have a fundamentally broken interaction with it. Assuming we filled the gap of Jester being realigned with Warlock, Stalker, or Necromorph everything would work out from me and dandy. In addition to improving the state of Neutral Evil.

Which is why a lot of people agree they should add the "Leaving" death.

Every time an Executioner lynched a target, they "Leave"



There's still the imbalance in the fact it doesn't support scum on the level Witch does. Nor is it an ideal Neutral(Evil).
Lack of balance.

Well there's 2 ways we can make it.

So that it leaves when their target is killed (by lynch/killing)

So that it stays and has to kill all town.

Or that it has the option to find a new target for a bonus of some sort.


I honestly don't know.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Gooose26 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:54 pm

Here's an idea I thought of for Executioner:

- Same as before, but cannot target mayor, jailor or retributionist
- If he successfully kills his target, then he cannot vote, and will not count towards the votes needed
- If there becomes a tie circumstance, like jailor with no executions, executioner, and godfather, then scum will win, according to how it would work if executioner was not there. Serial Killer will still win against godfather

Essentially he becomes a useless piece of crap afterwards, but he can't help evils

I think everything else is perfect
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:39 pm

Gooose26 wrote:Here's an idea I thought of for Executioner:

- Same as before, but cannot target mayor, jailor or retributionist
- If he successfully kills his target, then he cannot vote, and will not count towards the votes needed
- If there becomes a tie circumstance, like jailor with no executions, executioner, and godfather, then scum will win, according to how it would work if executioner was not there. Serial Killer will still win against godfather

Essentially he becomes a useless piece of crap afterwards, but he can't help evils

I think everything else is perfect

why not make the executioner "leave" the town?

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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:46 pm

lemonader666 wrote:
Gooose26 wrote:Here's an idea I thought of for Executioner:

- Same as before, but cannot target mayor, jailor or retributionist
- If he successfully kills his target, then he cannot vote, and will not count towards the votes needed
- If there becomes a tie circumstance, like jailor with no executions, executioner, and godfather, then scum will win, according to how it would work if executioner was not there. Serial Killer will still win against godfather

Essentially he becomes a useless piece of crap afterwards, but he can't help evils

I think everything else is perfect

why not make the executioner "leave" the town?



Because then this confirms them as an Executioner.
And helps town by eliminating claim space.

Evils won't be able to benefit from the time-stalling of the confusing accusation of others being a Jester or Witch if they happen to see an Executioner confirm themselves by straight up leaving the town.
(And in other instances, it can make claiming Executioner not liable because some townies still believe that it's okay to let an Executioner live since they're just a waste of a kill...which isn't a goooooood thing buuuuuut evils still benefit from it)
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:49 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
lemonader666 wrote:
Gooose26 wrote:Here's an idea I thought of for Executioner:

- Same as before, but cannot target mayor, jailor or retributionist
- If he successfully kills his target, then he cannot vote, and will not count towards the votes needed
- If there becomes a tie circumstance, like jailor with no executions, executioner, and godfather, then scum will win, according to how it would work if executioner was not there. Serial Killer will still win against godfather

Essentially he becomes a useless piece of crap afterwards, but he can't help evils

I think everything else is perfect

why not make the executioner "leave" the town?



Because then this confirms them as an Executioner.
And helps town by eliminating claim space.

Evils won't be able to benefit from the time-stalling of the confusing accusation of others being a Jester or Witch if they happen to see an Executioner confirm themselves by straight up leaving the town.
(And in other instances, it can make claiming Executioner not liable because some townies still believe that it's okay to let an Executioner live since they're just a waste of a kill...which isn't a goooooood thing buuuuuut evils still benefit from it)

good point, but i still don't like the fact that exe becomes a survivor after winning

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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Gooose26 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:52 pm

Precisely what Villager said. It leaves a certain instance of maybe this is Executioner or not, it could be an evil trying to get a free ride or something. Or maybe it's a Jester trying to get a lynch. The "Maybe we should just leave him alive" idea can become an evil play in the meta then.

None of that happens when the executioner leaves town

And it's not a survivor, it doesnmt have to survive. He already won, it doesnmt matter what happens next. Of course he can still talk, but otherwise nothing here is survivor-like
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:52 am

lemonader666 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
lemonader666 wrote:
Gooose26 wrote:Here's an idea I thought of for Executioner:

- Same as before, but cannot target mayor, jailor or retributionist
- If he successfully kills his target, then he cannot vote, and will not count towards the votes needed
- If there becomes a tie circumstance, like jailor with no executions, executioner, and godfather, then scum will win, according to how it would work if executioner was not there. Serial Killer will still win against godfather

Essentially he becomes a useless piece of crap afterwards, but he can't help evils

I think everything else is perfect

why not make the executioner "leave" the town?



Because then this confirms them as an Executioner.
And helps town by eliminating claim space.

Evils won't be able to benefit from the time-stalling of the confusing accusation of others being a Jester or Witch if they happen to see an Executioner confirm themselves by straight up leaving the town.
(And in other instances, it can make claiming Executioner not liable because some townies still believe that it's okay to let an Executioner live since they're just a waste of a kill...which isn't a goooooood thing buuuuuut evils still benefit from it)

good point, but i still don't like the fact that exe becomes a survivor after winning


Yeahhhhh well....that's an issue too.
Don't know what else to say honestly.

I personally can't think of a fair way to make the Executioner more anti-town other than it's target always being a town member.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:31 pm

Hey guys, updated my thread with Executioner change, and added my YouTube video dedicated to the topic!

Smash that support button. Maybe we can pursue this change's addition into the game if I get enough support.

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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:59 pm

I don't like the executioner change. It would be too easy to win. First of all, some roles should scare town from lynching. We have the jester (who has to act scummy in order to win) and the executioner (who has to act like a townie to win). This would force town to be more cautios with their lynches.
This exe would only have to wait until someone is confirmed evil (or even side with the jester) and lynch him. It would bassicaly become neutral town. He could even claim in d1 and get a free win with town.
I like jesters as they are now, but if this were implemented, the executioner should lose his defense after his target dies and his goal should become "live to see the town lose the game". This would be better.
PS: I think that the goal of NE shouldn't be "live to see the town lose". They should get their win once all the town members die, and then do whatever they want. (maybe they should kill the amnes too, or prevent them from remembering once all town members die).
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:34 pm

Joacgroso wrote:I don't like the executioner change. It would be too easy to win. First of all, some roles should scare town from lynching. We have the jester (who has to act scummy in order to win) and the executioner (who has to act like a townie to win). This would force town to be more cautios with their lynches.
This exe would only have to wait until someone is confirmed evil (or even side with the jester) and lynch him. It would bassicaly become neutral town. He could even claim in d1 and get a free win with town.
I like jesters as they are now, but if this were implemented, the executioner should lose his defense after his target dies and his goal should become "live to see the town lose the game". This would be better.
PS: I think that the goal of NE shouldn't be "live to see the town lose". They should get their win once all the town members die, and then do whatever they want. (maybe they should kill the amnes too, or prevent them from remembering once all town members die).



Making it Neutral(Chaos) would be called sweeping an already bad role under the rug, and warranting it being bad.

And by the way, Neutral(Evil) should see to Town losing, and then "leave the town."
This avoids kingmakers.
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Parallax7
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:39 pm

Parallax7 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:I don't like the executioner change. It would be too easy to win. First of all, some roles should scare town from lynching. We have the jester (who has to act scummy in order to win) and the executioner (who has to act like a townie to win). This would force town to be more cautios with their lynches.
This exe would only have to wait until someone is confirmed evil (or even side with the jester) and lynch him. It would bassicaly become neutral town. He could even claim in d1 and get a free win with town.
I like jesters as they are now, but if this were implemented, the executioner should lose his defense after his target dies and his goal should become "live to see the town lose the game". This would be better.
PS: I think that the goal of NE shouldn't be "live to see the town lose". They should get their win once all the town members die, and then do whatever they want. (maybe they should kill the amnes too, or prevent them from remembering once all town members die).



Making it Neutral(Chaos) would be called sweeping an already bad role under the rug, and warranting it being bad.

And by the way, Neutral(Evil) should see to Town losing, and then "leave the town."
This avoids kingmakers.

Without kingmakers NK can't possibly win. Kingmakers are good as long as they don't side with town. They are called "allies". And I don't think exe is a bad role. Changing his goal if his target dies early (or letting him win if his target is killed at night by a town member) would be enough to force him to hurt the town.
Sorry if I have spelling mistakes. English is not my main language.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:59 pm

Neutral(Killing) doesn't need kingmakers. There is this thing called it wins all 1v1 scenarios, and plays good.

Let me know when it occurs to you, by design, NKs aren't meant to win the game. Town and Mafia both have attributes, and pros that NK does not; and NK has both their cons. It's at fundamental disadvantage, and using kingmakers as a crutch is pretty weak when you take into account they have a choice with who they side with. Which stifles your argument entirely.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Gooose26 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:27 pm

Parallax7 wrote:Neutral(Killing) doesn't need kingmakers. There is this thing called it wins all 1v1 scenarios, and plays good.

Let me know when it occurs to you, by design, NKs aren't meant to win the game. Town and Mafia both have attributes, and pros that NK does not; and NK has both their cons. It's at fundamental disadvantage, and using kingmakers as a crutch is pretty weak when you take into account they have a choice with who they side with. Which stifles your argument entirely.

If Neutral Killing is supposed to lose then why is it in ranked? Like seriously you can randomly get a chance at a free loss? That's absolute bulls**t

And sure NK wins in 1v1 but what about 2v1? If there was a kingmaker to go with that, 2v2 is a victory. IT is weak but what else do you have to rely on when the game hates you?
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