Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Implement my Jester?

Yes!
23
38%
Yes, but as a new role!
17
28%
No!
21
34%
 
Total votes : 61

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:54 pm

This is actually really good. The current Jester just doesn't seem like a true NE so this is actually a really good overhaul(or something bleh)/support

JGaming08 wrote:Three things.

Parallax7 wrote:Arsonist:
When dousing the Jester, they will instant ignite, only killing the Jester, and cannot ignite/douse the following night.

Are all of the doused targets still doused? If not they should be, it'd provide a weak role more power.
I think the Jester dies for the night but all others are still doused

Parallax7 wrote:Role Alignment
Your alignment is Neutral Benign

Seems more like a scummy role to be NB, because NBs are all roles-sided and this is no role sided. However I don't know what you could change it to.
It's purpose is to die, it can't win if it doesn't die like amnesiac

Parallax7 wrote:-You own four pranks to last you through the game.

Seems like too many, guarantee's the Jester a win. I'd say you nerf it to three.

Apart from that, tis' a decent role.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby JGaming08 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:57 pm

lemonader666 wrote:This is actually really good. The current Jester just doesn't seem like a true NE so this is actually a really good overhaul(or something bleh)/support

JGaming08 wrote:Three things.

Parallax7 wrote:Arsonist:
When dousing the Jester, they will instant ignite, only killing the Jester, and cannot ignite/douse the following night.

Are all of the doused targets still doused? If not they should be, it'd provide a weak role more power.
I think the Jester dies for the night but all others are still doused
Makes sense.

Parallax7 wrote:Role Alignment
Your alignment is Neutral Benign

Seems more like a scummy role to be NB, because NBs are all roles-sided and this is no role sided. However I don't know what you could change it to.
It's purpose is to die, it can't win if it doesn't die like amnesiac
True, you have a point.

Apart from that, tis' a decent role.

JGaming08 wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:-You own four pranks to last you through the game.

Seems like too many, guarantee's the Jester a win. I'd say you nerf it to three.

Just this then.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:07 am

I personally think that Jester affects the meta negatively since scummy people should be lynched no matter what. I like this idea and think that it would be much better than the current Jester, but I still feel that it would be bad for the game's meta.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Jackparrot » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:03 pm

Maybe this idea could become another role,but I like jester the way it is, Jester prevents random lynching. But your idea is good
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:40 pm

Random lynching - something that only happens with bad towns. So you think Jester is good because it stops bad players from being bad? That's not good reasoning.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Jackparrot » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:12 pm

Is the current jester bad? Personally i dont think so.
But wouldnt jester be buffed with this overhaul?
As i said this idea could be a legit new role
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:21 pm

First of all, why there isn't a "no" option in the poll? You should add it.
Personally, I like jesters as they are now. Also, as the person above said, 4 pranks is too much. It should only have 2 or 3. Also, jesters should lose if they are executed by the jailor. This would make every evil role act like a jester, which is not funny. Town should have at least 1 way of killing him without being punished.
And personally, I think that this could be a new role, but it would be better if jester stayed as they are now.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:23 pm

It's a "Petition", Joac. You don't sign a petition to say no.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:30 pm

Joacgroso wrote:First of all, why there isn't a "no" option in the poll? You should add it.
Personally, I like jesters as they are now. Also, as the person above said, 4 pranks is too much. It should only have 2 or 3. Also, jesters should lose if they are executed by the jailor. This would make every evil role act like a jester, which is not funny. Town should have at least 1 way of killing him without being punished.
And personally, I think that this could be a new role, but it would be better if jester stayed as they are now.



You do realize, current Jester is a role meant to help scum in theory, as every Neutral Evil role is, but ultimately fails in practice.

Don't believe me:

Undeniable Proof:
Spoiler: Image

Spoiler: Image

In what world is a Jester's haunt remotely close to consistently helpful in regards to supporting scum? It isn't.

I won, and needless to say, Mafia lost, and that can be attributed to me. If you think Jester should remain Neutral Evil, then it's my advice you start a petition for Vampire to be in Ranked. :)
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Jackparrot » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:52 pm

Parallax7 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:First of all, why there isn't a "no" option in the poll? You should add it.
Personally, I like jesters as they are now. Also, as the person above said, 4 pranks is too much. It should only have 2 or 3. Also, jesters should lose if they are executed by the jailor. This would make every evil role act like a jester, which is not funny. Town should have at least 1 way of killing him without being punished.
And personally, I think that this could be a new role, but it would be better if jester stayed as they are now.



You do realize, current Jester is a role meant to help scum in theory, as every Neutral Evil role is, but ultimately fails in practice.

Don't believe me:

(content deleted)

In what world is a Jester's haunt remotely close to consistently helpful in regards to supporting scum? It isn't. I would disagree, mathimatically speaking
you have a higher chance to hit town and if you know say, the jailor or mayor you can kill them.


I won, and needless to say, Mafia lost, and that can be attributed to me. If you think Jester should remain Neutral Evil, then it's my advice you start a petition for Vampire to be in RankedSure, I'll say you as a role mod support it ;). :)
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:05 pm

Spoiler:
Jackparrot wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:First of all, why there isn't a "no" option in the poll? You should add it.
Personally, I like jesters as they are now. Also, as the person above said, 4 pranks is too much. It should only have 2 or 3. Also, jesters should lose if they are executed by the jailor. This would make every evil role act like a jester, which is not funny. Town should have at least 1 way of killing him without being punished.
And personally, I think that this could be a new role, but it would be better if jester stayed as they are now.



You do realize, current Jester is a role meant to help scum in theory, as every Neutral Evil role is, but ultimately fails in practice.

Don't believe me:

(content deleted)

In what world is a Jester's haunt remotely close to consistently helpful in regards to supporting scum? It isn't. I would disagree, mathimatically speaking
you have a higher chance to hit town and if you know say, the jailor or mayor you can kill them.


I won, and needless to say, Mafia lost, and that can be attributed to me. If you think Jester should remain Neutral Evil, then it's my advice you start a petition for Vampire to be in RankedSure, I'll say you as a role mod support it ;). :)


Your only point is disproved by my picture. In theory, Town should be haunted more, but in practice with scum pushing for lynches, they're liable to harm them self. That's how the game works, and of Jester is harming whom it's meant to help, then it's not a Neutral Evil roles.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby TrueGuardian32 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:28 pm

What if instead of having the sun during the day he has to options at night.

1 for pulling prank tonight
2 for pulling prank at day
Then nothing for not pulling prank.

It would prevent the Jester from simply waiting for the lynch to happen then pressing the sun right then and there.

I also say lower the number to 3, its the most balanced number in town of salem, 3 lynchs 3 vig shots 3 alerts. Etc.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:35 pm

TrueGuardian32 wrote:What if instead of having the sun during the day he has to options at night.

1 for pulling prank tonight
2 for pulling prank at day
Then nothing for not pulling prank.

It would prevent the Jester from simply waiting for the lynch to happen then pressing the sun right then and there.

I also say lower the number to 3, its the most balanced number in town of salem, 3 lynchs 3 vig shots 3 alerts. Etc.

The OP said that the jester will only be able to press the sun button during the first 15 seconds of the discussion phase.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby TrueGuardian32 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:37 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
TrueGuardian32 wrote:What if instead of having the sun during the day he has to options at night.

1 for pulling prank tonight
2 for pulling prank at day
Then nothing for not pulling prank.

It would prevent the Jester from simply waiting for the lynch to happen then pressing the sun right then and there.

I also say lower the number to 3, its the most balanced number in town of salem, 3 lynchs 3 vig shots 3 alerts. Etc.

The OP said that the jester will only be able to press the sun button during the first 15 seconds of the discussion phase.


That would work, I'd just prefer if he decided at night only instead of day. Because if he does it at night he would basically have the prank ready for the next day. If he decides to stay at home and wait to be killed he can use the other option. I just feel that it would work better if there was two options at night the Jester could choose.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:44 pm

Parallax7 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:First of all, why there isn't a "no" option in the poll? You should add it.
Personally, I like jesters as they are now. Also, as the person above said, 4 pranks is too much. It should only have 2 or 3. Also, jesters should lose if they are executed by the jailor. This would make every evil role act like a jester, which is not funny. Town should have at least 1 way of killing him without being punished.
And personally, I think that this could be a new role, but it would be better if jester stayed as they are now.



You do realize, current Jester is a role meant to help scum in theory, as every Neutral Evil role is, but ultimately fails in practice.

Don't believe me:

Undeniable Proof:
Spoiler: Image

Spoiler: Image

In what world is a Jester's haunt remotely close to consistently helpful in regards to supporting scum? It isn't.

I won, and needless to say, Mafia lost, and that can be attributed to me. If you think Jester should remain Neutral Evil, then it's my advice you start a petition for Vampire to be in Ranked. :)

Jesters don't unbalance the game as much as vampires. Also, jesters help scum because they cause a lot of chaos to get themselves lynched, distracting the town from the real evils. They allow scum to act like them, making town reluctant to lynch them (especially useful if all TK died). And in my opinion, everyone who voted guilty on a jester deserves the risk of being haunted. That godfather knew that you weren't mafia, so he shouldn't have voted guilty. And if you tricked him into making him think that you were NK, then he deserves the haunt as any other player.

PS: Spoiler: If you want to post screenshots, you should use [simg] instead of [img]. You can use it to make the screenshots smaller ;)
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:45 pm

TrueGuardian32 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:
TrueGuardian32 wrote:What if instead of having the sun during the day he has to options at night.

1 for pulling prank tonight
2 for pulling prank at day
Then nothing for not pulling prank.

It would prevent the Jester from simply waiting for the lynch to happen then pressing the sun right then and there.

I also say lower the number to 3, its the most balanced number in town of salem, 3 lynchs 3 vig shots 3 alerts. Etc.

The OP said that the jester will only be able to press the sun button during the first 15 seconds of the discussion phase.


That would work, I'd just prefer if he decided at night only instead of day. Because if he does it at night he would basically have the prank ready for the next day. If he decides to stay at home and wait to be killed he can use the other option. I just feel that it would work better if there was two options at night the Jester could choose.

I agree with you. I said that because you said the jester could wait for his lynch and then clic the button, while OP said he couldn't.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:53 pm

Spoiler:
Joacgroso wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:First of all, why there isn't a "no" option in the poll? You should add it.
Personally, I like jesters as they are now. Also, as the person above said, 4 pranks is too much. It should only have 2 or 3. Also, jesters should lose if they are executed by the jailor. This would make every evil role act like a jester, which is not funny. Town should have at least 1 way of killing him without being punished.
And personally, I think that this could be a new role, but it would be better if jester stayed as they are now.



You do realize, current Jester is a role meant to help scum in theory, as every Neutral Evil role is, but ultimately fails in practice.

Don't believe me:

Undeniable Proof:
[spoiler]Image

Spoiler: Image

In what world is a Jester's haunt remotely close to consistently helpful in regards to supporting scum? It isn't.

I won, and needless to say, Mafia lost, and that can be attributed to me. If you think Jester should remain Neutral Evil, then it's my advice you start a petition for Vampire to be in Ranked. :)
[/spoiler]


Jesters don't unbalance the game as much as vampires. Also, jesters help scum because they cause a lot of chaos to get themselves lynched,
I don't think they help by causing chaos, they help by making Town scared to lynch scummy people. It's a defense mechanic.

They allow scum to act like them, making town reluctant to lynch them (especially useful if all TK died).

Yes, my change does that, and provides an inverse for Town. God forbid, I make a good role better.

And in my opinion, everyone who voted guilty on a jester deserves the risk of being haunted.

That's too much risk-reward, and while I agree to an extent, it wouldn't solve the issue, it's simply mean scum would be even more vulnerable to being haunted.

That godfather knew that you weren't mafia, so he shouldn't have voted guilty. And if you tricked him into making him think that you were NK, then he deserves the haunt as any other player.

Except, I was Neutral Evil, and it was day 2, no Mafia should be lynching fellow scum that early. He suffered because of a bad mechanic, that the Jester can be faulted with.

PS: Spoiler: If you want to post screenshots, you should use [simg] instead of [img]. You can use it to make the screenshots smaller ;)

Thanks! :S
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Re: Jester Overhaul #NeutralBeNOTEvil

Postby DeadLittleLamb » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:34 pm

Parallax7 wrote:
DeadLittleLamb wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
DeadLittleLamb wrote:I like it a lot, it's definitely a better and healthier role for the game now. Would Executioner still get promoted to this new Jester if their target dies?


That's a difficult question, and to be honest, I'm uncertain. If you have any ideas as to what happens for Executioner, let me know!


In my opinion Executioner's goal should be changed to "Live to see the Town lose the game" if their target is killed at night, but they lose their immunity (maybe?).



That has potential!
Perhaps it's randomly assigned another target?


That could also work, an additional change that would be nice would be to make it so Town has to lynch/kill Exe in order to win. This would require that it loses it's immunity after it's target has been lynched but I think it's a step in the right direction to make Executioner more anti-Town (close to Witch).
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Jackparrot » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:35 pm

Dear supporters of this petition,i would like to point out that, NEs shouldnt exist as according to parallex as all of them potentailly help the town yes all three of them!
EX1: exe tries to get target lynched, dies the next night and boom! confirmed townie and less people to put suspicion on, there fore hindering the oposition.
EX2: Witch attempts to use escort on "doc" when in fact he was SK with LO on him! (effectivly confirmed SK(confirmed town is bad but confirmed
scum is game-destroying))
EX3 (Parallex's example)

So by this logic NE doesnt exist! it's killing NB! :P
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:43 pm

Jackparrot wrote:Dear supporters of this petition,i would like to point out that, NEs shouldnt exist as according to parallex as all of them potentailly help the town yes all three of them!
EX1: exe tries to get target lynched, dies the next night and boom! confirmed townie and less people to put suspicion on, there fore hindering the oposition.
EX2: Witch attempts to use escort on "doc" when in fact he was SK with LO on him! (effectivly confirmed SK(confirmed town is bad but confirmed
scum is game-destroying))
EX3 (Parallex's example)

So by this logic NE doesnt exist! it's killing NB! :P


Neutral Evil should support scum, directly killing them isn't support.

Witch wins with them, sharing a goal, and controlling actions, they induce chaos on the town, and act as an extra vote.

Executioner essentially always causes a mislynch, and should act as an additional vote, but that's up to the player.

Jester can produce a dilemma in lynches, but because of game mechanics, is liable to haunt scum, countering it's support mechanism.

Let's recap:
Witch Neutral Evil
Executioner barely Neutral Evil
Jester Neutral Garbage

My role salvages the dilemma, and extends on it, while reducing the toxic affect the Jester has. Win-Win. Please don't slander my thread. :c
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:47 pm

Oh BTW, I just want to make this clear. If the jailor jails a jester, can he set a prank? I hope you are not planning that, because most scum would act as a jester in jail, wich would be very annoying for jailors.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:53 pm

Joacgroso wrote:Oh BTW, I just want to make this clear. If the jailor jails a jester, can he set a prank? I hope you are not planning that, because most scum would act as a jester in jail, wich would be very annoying for jailors.


That's a good question, Jailor is such a god, I could see it being a good thing, but since Jailing is a role block, you probably wouldn't. I'm unsure. I'll add that to things to keep in mind.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:54 pm

The original Jester could be kept and put into Neutral Chaos if people really want it to stay that much, right? It doesn't fit as NE because, yes, it does cause a mislynch. But it could easily kill scum that night which cancels out the mislynch, because a one for one trade favors Town.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Jackparrot » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:59 pm

Parallex your evidence is valid however your arguement is not, as my example is valid if not why are my arguements invalid?
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:06 pm

Jackparrot wrote:Parallex your evidence is valid however your arguement is not, as my example is valid if not why are my arguements invalid?


How is my argument invalid...?
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