Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Implement my Jester?

Yes!
23
38%
Yes, but as a new role!
17
28%
No!
21
34%
 
Total votes : 61

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby RHCube » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:14 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:That's another problem, it means Town should be afraid to lynch scum - what else would suspecting all scum of being a potential Jester mean?

That's the point of jester.
HereThereEverywhere wrote:On page two I mentioned something about keeping the original Jester as a Chaos role, would that work for people?

No, because then jester would rarely appear in ranked. I don't see any issues with the current jester. Roles should only be reworked if their concept is broken(like spy/ret)
Jackparrot wrote:Maybe make jester and execountioner a NB, because it has it's own win conditions?

I support that, but exe would only work as a NB if it could have anyone(not just town) as its target.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:07 pm

Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby kookeekwisp » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:11 pm

...what the heck is this?

No really, I can't figure out what the hell it does, nor can I tell if it requires skill.

Goal: Successfully pull a prank on someone

Abilities:
-During the day/night choose to pull a prank on the townsfolk.

WHAT???
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Kirize wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:Dont single out Arso cause it kills slower!
I didnt know you could contradict yourself in one sentence
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:28 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

Well... veteran's point is making evils afraid of attacking people, while escorts directly prevent them from killing.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:36 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

Well... veteran's point is making evils afraid of attacking people, while escorts directly prevent them from killing.

Escort does directly prevent evils from killing. But that's why WW and SK kill roleblockers and Mafia has a GF and a Mafioso, to avoid that. Veteran only alerts three times, so the chance to dying to vet is a lot less than lynching a Jester that will always kill someone - the someone having a chance of being evil and thus making Jester help Town rather than hurt them.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby kookeekwisp » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:23 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

Well... veteran's point is making evils afraid of attacking people, while escorts directly prevent them from killing.

Escort does directly prevent evils from killing. But that's why WW and SK kill roleblockers and Mafia has a GF and a Mafioso, to avoid that. Veteran only alerts three times, so the chance to dying to vet is a lot less than lynching a Jester that will always kill someone - the someone having a chance of being evil and thus making Jester help Town rather than hurt them.

Well, a lying Townie would be kindof an easy spot for scum, especially Coven.
No Surv in their right mind would vote guilty on a scummy Town claim.
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Kirize wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:Dont single out Arso cause it kills slower!
I didnt know you could contradict yourself in one sentence
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Jackparrot » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:28 pm

Parallax7 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:First of all, why there isn't a "no" option in the poll? You should add it.
Personally, I like jesters as they are now. Also, as the person above said, 4 pranks is too much. It should only have 2 or 3. Also, jesters should lose if they are executed by the jailor. This would make every evil role act like a jester, which is not funny. Town should have at least 1 way of killing him without being punished.
And personally, I think that this could be a new role, but it would be better if jester stayed as they are now.



You do realize, current Jester is a role meant to help scum in theory, as every Neutral Evil role is, but ultimately fails in practice.


In what world is a Jester's haunt remotely close to consistently helpful in regards to supporting scum? It isn't.

I won, and needless to say, Mafia lost, and that can be attributed to me. If you think Jester should remain Neutral Evil, then it's my advice you start a petition for Vampire to be in Ranked. :)


This is one example, Does this happen all the time? Nope. As I said jest is to make town more reluctant to lynch, therefore serving as a defense mechanic
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:52 pm

It's defense mechanic backfires because it can kill scum, and because of how the game works, it does more often than not.

I've answered pretty much every dumb question I've been asked. Not going to argue for the sake of arguing any longer. We both have opinions.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:59 pm

a role that stops lynching for the sake of stopping lynching is bad.

Scummy people shouldn't be alive because of a dumb jester mechanic honestly.
"Oh but Marlony1 (or as people from the discord formerly call me Memezaki), town would just random lynch"

Then they lynch town. They're already punished for their actions.

"But, town should be punished for lynching the wrong scum!"

Think about that for a second.

"wrong scum"

"wrong scum"

"wrong scum"


"But, town should be punished for lynching the wrong scum!"

Think about that for a second.

"wrong scum"

"wrong scum"

"wrong scum"

Just copy and paste those words and you basically have an argument for every remove jester ToS argument ever.


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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby RHCube » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:11 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

If jester didn't exist, then random lynching would be more common. It's already hard for evils to win against skilled towns. Again, I don't see why the current jester needs to be reworked.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:15 pm

RHCube wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

If jester didn't exist, then random lynching would be more common. It's already hard for evils to win against skilled towns. Again, I don't see why the current jester needs to be reworked.

"Oh but Marlony1 (or as people from the discord formerly call me Memezaki), town would just random lynch"

Then they lynch town. They're already punished for their actions.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby RHCube » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:16 pm

Spoiler:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

If jester didn't exist, then random lynching would be more common. It's already hard for evils to win against skilled towns. Again, I don't see why the current jester needs to be reworked.

"Oh but Marlony1 (or as people from the discord formerly call me Memezaki), town would just random lynch"

Then they lynch town. They're already punished for their actions.

It's easy for skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies. And how are they already punished for their actions?
Last edited by RHCube on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:17 pm

RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

If jester didn't exist, then random lynching would be more common. It's already hard for evils to win against skilled towns. Again, I don't see why the current jester needs to be reworked.

"Oh but Marlony1 (or as people from the discord formerly call me Memezaki), town would just random lynch"

Then they lynch town. They're already punished for their actions.

Evils have the minority, so they can't lynch town. And it's easy for skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies


If they were skilled townies who knew how to not lynch townies they wouldn't be random lynching.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby RHCube » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:18 pm

Spoiler:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

If jester didn't exist, then random lynching would be more common. It's already hard for evils to win against skilled towns. Again, I don't see why the current jester needs to be reworked.

"Oh but Marlony1 (or as people from the discord formerly call me Memezaki), town would just random lynch"

Then they lynch town. They're already punished for their actions.

Evils have the minority, so they can't lynch town. And it's easy for skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies


If they were skilled townies they wouldn't be random lynching, moron.

Be nice. And I have seen skilled players random lynch.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:19 pm

RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

If jester didn't exist, then random lynching would be more common. It's already hard for evils to win against skilled towns. Again, I don't see why the current jester needs to be reworked.

"Oh but Marlony1 (or as people from the discord formerly call me Memezaki), town would just random lynch"

Then they lynch town. They're already punished for their actions.

Evils have the minority, so they can't lynch town. And it's easy for skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies


If they were skilled townies they wouldn't be random lynching, moron.

Be nice. And I have seen skilled players random lynch.

skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies
= Not random lynching.

Read your own posts before you argue.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby RHCube » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:21 pm

Spoiler:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

If jester didn't exist, then random lynching would be more common. It's already hard for evils to win against skilled towns. Again, I don't see why the current jester needs to be reworked.

"Oh but Marlony1 (or as people from the discord formerly call me Memezaki), town would just random lynch"

Then they lynch town. They're already punished for their actions.

Evils have the minority, so they can't lynch town. And it's easy for skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies


If they were skilled townies they wouldn't be random lynching, moron.

Be nice. And I have seen skilled players random lynch.

skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies
= Not random lynching.

Read your own posts before you argue.


Just because they avoid lynching other townies doesn't mean that it's not random lynching. They could still randomly lynch evils.
Last edited by RHCube on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:23 pm

Spoiler:
RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

If jester didn't exist, then random lynching would be more common. It's already hard for evils to win against skilled towns. Again, I don't see why the current jester needs to be reworked.

"Oh but Marlony1 (or as people from the discord formerly call me Memezaki), town would just random lynch"

Then they lynch town. They're already punished for their actions.

Evils have the minority, so they can't lynch town. And it's easy for skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies


If they were skilled townies they wouldn't be random lynching, moron.

Be nice. And I have seen skilled players random lynch.

skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies
= Not random lynching.

Read your own posts before you argue.

Just because they avoid lynching other townies doesn't mean that it's not random lynching. They could still randomly lynch evils.


Then that's luck, not skill. There's a difference between the two.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby RHCube » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:24 pm

Spoiler:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
marlony1 wrote:
RHCube wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:Yes, the point of Jester is to make Town afraid of lynching. That's a bad point, because lynching is Town's main weapon for killing scum.

If jester didn't exist, then random lynching would be more common. It's already hard for evils to win against skilled towns. Again, I don't see why the current jester needs to be reworked.

"Oh but Marlony1 (or as people from the discord formerly call me Memezaki), town would just random lynch"

Then they lynch town. They're already punished for their actions.

Evils have the minority, so they can't lynch town. And it's easy for skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies


If they were skilled townies they wouldn't be random lynching, moron.

Be nice. And I have seen skilled players random lynch.

skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies
= Not random lynching.

Read your own posts before you argue.

Just because they avoid lynching other townies doesn't mean that it's not random lynching. They could still randomly lynch evils.


Then that's luck, not skill. There's a difference between the two.

I never said that it was skill or luck. I just said that it was random lynching.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:26 pm

I never said that it was skill or luck. I just said that it was a random lynching.

skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby RHCube » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:28 pm

Spoiler:
marlony1 wrote:
I never said that it was skill or luck. I just said that it was a random lynching.

skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies

Just because they're skilled doesn't mean that they won't random lynch.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby marlony1 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:31 pm

RHCube wrote: Spoiler:
marlony1 wrote:
I never said that it was skill or luck. I just said that it was a random lynching.

skilled townies to avoid accidently lynching other townies

Just because they're skilled doesn't mean that they won't random lynch.

skilled townies to avoid accidentally lynching other townies

It doesn't count as random lynching if you know who you're lynching and who you're not lynching.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Mystoc » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:59 pm

thing is dying during the night it just way too easy to do

it should never be part of a goal is a natural part of the game you cant make it a goal casue people need to die for the game to end people don't need to be hanged for the game to end that's why current jester makes sense

the penalty not being able to vote is dumb because it affects everyone regardless if they voted guilted or not this clearly helps both evils and town depending who has the majority

you are trying to make the no hanging town sided penalty wise but it isn't cause evils can vote too and can sometimes have majority

they night prank is cleary town favored since it only affects the attacker and not everyone else, yes there are town who kill but there kill affects secondary expect jailor and vig

on a side note this incredibly dumb you can be jailed by jailor and just refuse to give role and then hit prank ofc jailor will exe you

this night prank just doesn't work cause dying during the night is part of the game you could easily get this done by accident

TLDR your day penalty is neither town sided or evil sided , night penalty cleary is evil sided in negatives, reverse jester don't work it's to easy to die during the night it doesn't matter you have to click a button for it to count

lastly giving a win condition charges is a horrible idea no role in the game is like this and never should be pranks need to unlimited and then whole point of clicking the button doesnt make sense this just can't work
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:59 pm

Mystoc wrote:thing is dying during the night it just way too easy to do

Well you only have three chances to, and you have to convince Mafia you're worth killing. You must have 5,000 ELO.

it should never be part of a goal is a natural part of the game you cant make it a goal casue people need to die for the game to end people don't need to be hanged for the game to end that's why current jester makes sense

People need to be hanged in order for Town to win, you're misconstruing scum principles as game mechanics, try again.

the penalty not being able to vote is dumb because it affects everyone regardless if they voted guilted or not this clearly helps both evils and town depending who has the majority

Voting is town's weapon, by scum, can scum use it against them? Yes. Can Town use scum weapon against its opposers? Yes, actually; so this point is moot.

you are trying to make the no hanging town sided penalty wise but it isn't cause evils can vote too and can sometimes have majority

If scum has majority, it doesn't matter, Town has lost 9/10, so this holds no substance.

they night prank is cleary town favored since it only affects the attacker and not everyone else, yes there are town who kill but there kill affects secondary expect jailor and vig

The party responsible suffers. Not the sole attacker, you even read the role?

on a side note this incredibly dumb you can be jailed by jailor and just refuse to give role and then hit prank ofc jailor will exe you

Jailor is incredibly powerful; your point? Any means of nerfing Jailor is a good means. Thanks for the feedback though!

this night prank just doesn't work cause dying during the night is part of the game you could easily get this done by accident

Yes, and so are lyches, and so are manipulating kills & lynches. Serial Killer could easily get killed N1 by Bodyguard. It's called being fortunate or unfortunate. It's a character trait of Mafia games, sorry pal, not my role's fault.

TLDR your day penalty is neither town sided or evil sided , night penalty cleary is evil sided in negatives, reverse jester don't work it's to easy to die during the night it doesn't matter you have to click a button for it to count

Preventing a lynch for 9/10 extensive purposes hurts Town.

lastly giving a win condition charges is a horrible idea no role in the game is like this and never should be pranks need to unlimited and then whole point of clicking the button doesnt make sense this just can't work

This mechanic insures it isn't too easy? I honestly think you have no clue what you're talking about.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Mystoc » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:24 pm

getting hanged means you have to get town to suspect you and then get town to vote you up and then a majority all vote guilty all without tipping them off that you aren't jester you cant make it to obv at same time

during the night you could die cause you made yourself seem like an important town target but then TP would be on you that way its instant anti synergy

the best way to die during the night would be be quiet and hope you die randomly that's why it wont work dying during the night is a natural part of the game that only needs input from one person, getting lynched means u have to fool the majority to hang you and get hanged, getting lynched only happens when you play correctly dying during the night can just happen randomly its a bad goal


lastly giving limited pranks is bad cause it having a goal tied to only having x amunts chances to use pranks just doesn't make sense

-You own three pranks to last you through the game.


what happens when you run out pranks you just loose? no all other role in the game is like this

thing is your tried to make dying during the night more fair by making it like a vet alert and added hanging for parity sake

but it will feel so bad to use a prank then have fail and know you only have x amount left then you loose , but removing the charges alert like function would just feel to easy so i don't see and easy middleground

perhaps the charges come back but slowly

i like the concepts but its almost impossible to make reverse jesters work dying during the night is part of the game getting hanged is not and only happens to you by drawing suspicion on yourself
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:48 pm

added a suicide mechanic once you extinguish your prank count.
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