Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Implement my Jester?

Yes!
28
37%
Yes, but as a new role!
21
28%
No!
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Total votes : 76

Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Shilster » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:43 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:I mean, unoriginal names aren't exactly great but they're not bad either. I'm against renaming Coven Leader "Witch" because the original Witch should be in Coven as a separate entity from CL.


Change CL to Enchantress.
Give the witching to Witch.


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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:50 am

CL doesn't need to lose the ability for Witch to exist.
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Hmmmm

Postby Villagerlover » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:34 pm

I really like the idea of a new touch up on the Jester, but I don't like this particular direction it's headed in.

For one thing, the Jester is going to be a lot easier to win with than usual. It could either die during the day or night to win. And I personally don't believe any role should have the ability to directly win from dying at night. Even if the pranks are limited, it's still a lot easier since you're offering a new way out to win.

Another problem I see with this rework is that there is almost always going to be one way the Jester wins....dying at night.
If you really think about it, getting lynched is a lot harder than dying at night. So of course people are going to take the easy way out. There will be less and less jester plays and more play on just trying to get yourself killed at night.
Although admittedly, if this was a thing, then people could easily claim suspicious and vulnerable roles which may play a new idea of reverse psychology. In the sense of "Yeah that's right I'm sheriff I sure hope no one kills me at night...". That'd be an interesting concept that I could enjoy playing with. So that's a thing.



But other than that...I am interested in seeing new ideas for the Jester's gameplay.

So to summarize if you didn't read all of that:
The ideas are neat but the main issue is that it's a lot easier to win with. Kinda takes away the whole challenge of being a jester.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Mace8937 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:34 pm

This transition makes the jester even more evil, not benign.
Benign roles, in my point of view with the survivor, are supposed to not hinder the game any which way. They are supposed to lay low and help whichever faction they think will lead them to victory.
In this case with this new Jester idea, this severely changes the games and kind one sided towards making the town unable to do anything.
Bodyguards on a mayor won't save them, if mafia is unable to kill and jailor jails a town member then they will think the jailed in a mafia.
However, the killers, mafia and NK are only stopped from killing for one night. One! Its a role block with no dead escorts or actual escort to begin with!
And as for jester-afraid people not lynching, they're just not skilled. Any good player would be able to make reads and know if its a jester or a mafia or NK
y
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:50 pm

The problem with your view on NBs is that it doesn't allow for much variation. Not to mention, if it doesn't make an impact on the game, why even have it?
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby MonzterAssassin » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:37 am

Well if you want to solve to problem of exe becoming this jester, though I LOVE this suggestion, Exe should turn into a special role if target dies, much like PB > Pest (Can't obtain pest with the role list or scrolls, must go through PB), which could be called Lunatic whose goal is that of the original Jester. It could still work well, as if they stayed silent, the town or consig's results would still find them as Jester, so they can't be outed as "Lunatic" unless killed or hung. A possible way to remedy that potentially OP invest dodge is to allow the sheriff to see them as a Lunatic. But only if invested after the target dies, if they are Executioner then they would still be NS.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:07 am

Mace8937 wrote:This transition makes the jester even more evil, not benign.
Benign roles, in my point of view with the survivor, are supposed to not hinder the game any which way. They are supposed to lay low and help whichever faction they think will lead them to victory.
In this case with this new Jester idea, this severely changes the games and kind one sided towards making the town unable to do anything.
Bodyguards on a mayor won't save them, if mafia is unable to kill and jailor jails a town member then they will think the jailed in a mafia.
However, the killers, mafia and NK are only stopped from killing for one night. One! Its a role block with no dead escorts or actual escort to begin with!
And as for jester-afraid people not lynching, they're just not skilled. Any good player would be able to make reads and know if its a jester or a mafia or NK



HereThereEverywhere wrote:The problem with your view on NBs is that it doesn't allow for much variation. Not to mention, if it doesn't make an impact on the game, why even have it?


Let's work under the assumption, Neutral Benign was tossed back into Ranked. Provided my change was made, NB would be much more balanced and impactful. Your definition of Neutral Benign is neither balance or engaging. Two negatives.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Shilster » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:08 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:The problem with your view on NBs is that it doesn't allow for much variation. Not to mention, if it doesn't make an impact on the game, why even have it?


*cough* Amnesiac remembers Mafia *cough*
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:13 am

Shilster wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:The problem with your view on NBs is that it doesn't allow for much variation. Not to mention, if it doesn't make an impact on the game, why even have it?


*cough* Amnesiac remembers Mafia *cough*


What's your point? Amnesiac could also very well remember Jailor, or Mayor.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:19 am

Parallax7 wrote:
Shilster wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:The problem with your view on NBs is that it doesn't allow for much variation. Not to mention, if it doesn't make an impact on the game, why even have it?


*cough* Amnesiac remembers Mafia *cough*


What's your point? Amnesiac could also very well remember Jailor, or Mayor.



Uuuuh no. They can't.

The Amnesiac can only remember Unique roles that aren't Town. It even says it right on the role card...
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:22 am

Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
Shilster wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:The problem with your view on NBs is that it doesn't allow for much variation. Not to mention, if it doesn't make an impact on the game, why even have it?


*cough* Amnesiac remembers Mafia *cough*


What's your point? Amnesiac could also very well remember Jailor, or Mayor.



Uuuuh no. They can't.

The Amnesiac can only remember Unique roles that aren't Town. It even says it right on the role card...


They can't....?
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Shilster » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:37 am

Parallax7 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
Shilster wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:The problem with your view on NBs is that it doesn't allow for much variation. Not to mention, if it doesn't make an impact on the game, why even have it?


*cough* Amnesiac remembers Mafia *cough*


What's your point? Amnesiac could also very well remember Jailor, or Mayor.



Uuuuh no. They can't.

The Amnesiac can only remember Unique roles that aren't Town. It even says it right on the role card...


They can't....?


How did you not know that. Amne can remember any role except for unique Towns
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:11 am

Parallax7 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
Shilster wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:The problem with your view on NBs is that it doesn't allow for much variation. Not to mention, if it doesn't make an impact on the game, why even have it?


*cough* Amnesiac remembers Mafia *cough*


What's your point? Amnesiac could also very well remember Jailor, or Mayor.



Uuuuh no. They can't.

The Amnesiac can only remember Unique roles that aren't Town. It even says it right on the role card...


They can't....?

Amnesiacs can only remember unique non-town roles, not the unique towns

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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby lemonader666 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:16 am

I think 3 is balanced, but dying at night is pretty easy so i suggest pulling a prank at night can only be done once/twice.

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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:18 am

Since a core mechanic of the game is also lynching, and it also deterred, the balance or "lack there of" because Jester can win because of these fundamentals, isn't the role's fault. What it comes down to, is who plays better, determines who is punished. I've stated time and time again, Jester rewards whoever plays better. Scum is more susceptible to this, but don't forget, they can also manipulate town's weapon: lynches.

All in all, Jester can win easily, but the consequences should deter this. Assuming they don't, it's a 3rd Party Benign role that doesn't care who wins, and can work with anybody. It's an individual goal, not a team effort, so Jester winning with ease isn't much of an issue.

Perhaps rewarding little, to no ELO for Jester wins would be applicable? I honestly believe this variation of the role would act as an essential balancing tool. So claiming it's too easy to win with, and therefore "bad", is moot. ;)

TL;DR:
This role is balanced, the issues being pointed out can be attributed to the game. Which really, if you look into it deeper, aren't really issues.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:20 pm

Amnesiac, during the PTR when it was originally updated to remember uniques, could remember roles like Jailor and Mayor. Community feedback led the Devs to change this so it can only remember non-unique Town roles.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:37 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Amnesiac, during the PTR when it was originally updated to remember uniques, could remember roles like Jailor and Mayor. Community feedback led the Devs to change this so it can only remember non-unique Town roles.



Yes, I recall that. I thought they changed it back?
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:07 pm

As far as I know they didn't, so you can only remember non-unique Town and all scum roles(can only be one unique alive at a time though)
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby BPsycho2 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:05 pm

That's besides the point.

Back to the Jester overhaul
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Parallax7 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:05 am

Bumping my thread up because I wanna get some more support/thought - concerns.
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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:40 am

Parallax7 wrote:Bumping my thread up because I wanna get some more support/thought - concerns.

Wait... is that allowed :?:
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Postby Ralozey » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:01 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Bumping my thread up because I wanna get some more support/thought - concerns.

Wait... is that allowed :?:

The OP is allowed to bump their thread whenever they want. If the OP is using this priviledge too excessively though we will intervene.

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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:26 pm

Ralozey wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Bumping my thread up because I wanna get some more support/thought - concerns.

Wait... is that allowed :?:

The OP is allowed to bump their thread whenever they want. If the OP is using this priviledge too excessively though we will intervene.

Is that allowed in every forum, or only in role ideas?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Postby Ralozey » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:29 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
Ralozey wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Bumping my thread up because I wanna get some more support/thought - concerns.

Wait... is that allowed :?:

The OP is allowed to bump their thread whenever they want. If the OP is using this priviledge too excessively though we will intervene.

Is that allowed in every forum, or only in role ideas?

Every Forum except those who have special rules (DR, FM etc.)

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Re: Jester Overhaul #SeeNoNeutralEvil

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:32 pm

Ralozey wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:
Ralozey wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:Bumping my thread up because I wanna get some more support/thought - concerns.

Wait... is that allowed :?:

The OP is allowed to bump their thread whenever they want. If the OP is using this priviledge too excessively though we will intervene.

Is that allowed in every forum, or only in role ideas?

Every Forum except those who have special rules (DR, FM etc.)

Hm, that's good to know. I'll keep it in mind.

...

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Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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