Let Godfather Read Whispers

Old Role Ideas

Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:01 pm

Disclaimer: This is NOT my idea. It has been suggested for a few months by a bunch of people. All I am doing is making it into a formal suggestion.

Before 1.5, Mayors were able to reveal and force everyone to whisper their roles to them. The Mayor would then be able to easily figure out who is lying due to Ranked's limited claimspace. However, after 1.5, Mayor became unable to read whispers, preventing this from happening. But other roles, including but not limited to Jailor, Vigilante, Veteran, Vampire Hunter, Retributionist, revived Townies, and Amnesiacs who remember Town can easily do this too. Blackmailer became able to read whispers in order to counter this and lower Spy's existence. So now Townies can no longer use whispers for massclaims, right?

Wrong.

Even though it has become a lot less common due to similar strategies like VFR, the 13% chance of a Blackmailer spawning is not nearly enough to deter some players from still doing this. If a role like Godfather was able to read whispers, then whisper games would never be worth it for Town.

But whisper games are rarely done in Ranked now.
Just because something does not happen often does not make it okay. If there was a role that could instantly kill everyone and win the game Night 1 but had a 1/1000 chance of spawning, would that be fair? It is very unlikely to happen, but that does not make it fine.

Godfather is already powerful enough and does not really need buffs.
This would be more of a nerf to the Town than a buff to Godfather. The fact that there is a confirmed Mafia role that could read whispers is enough to prevent Townies from using whispers unfairly. If you still think this is overpowered, you could just give the whisper reading ability to Mafioso and it would not make much of a difference.
Last edited by alex1234321 on Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:10 pm

/support

There would still be problems relating to GF's dying early on, but let's be honest here, if you managed to kill the GF early despite night and detection immunity you deserve to whisper freely.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby Jafetlamval17 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:00 pm

I like it. This would Buff the mafia and slightly Nerf the Town, causing that most of the spy claims are lynched.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby M3rkTiger » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:38 pm

/nosupport

This prevents most if not all town working together through whispers. BMer is bad enough but making it so it's guaranteed there's an evil that can read your whispers? I don't like it. What if a lookout found a jailor because a player they watched claimed jailed? It prevents town from finding allies and working together for a common goal. This reduces town winrate, but by an unfair amount. Sure, whisper games definitely used to be an issue, but I find it a lot less of an issue now, especially in ranked. Even then, perhaps the revived bodyguard plays the whisper game, I still see people not even bothering with them. I feel like this unfairly nerfs town. There's no reason the godfather should be able to read whispers. This is just not the way to go.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby Tonbert » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:11 am

whispering is critical to town. If town can't whisper at all then town will fail more often then not. Killers try their best to discourage it b/c it is so fundamental for town's survival. It's so important a good BM'er will play silent spy in the early game.

The current hear all whispers is flawed. Ppl just stop whispering and as a consequence town rarely co-ordinates. And, town needs to make those connections with each other to function. That is the purpose of whisper for town.

Would be better to have an ability that let's a player hear whispers from one player during the day.

Spy whisper right now is balanced out I think. Mafia can troll spies at night and enjoy it, and stay quiet some games or just know not to say something important the rest.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby khakha1036 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:30 am

alex this is the worst post you ever made. Godfather have almost the same power as SK but don't make it stronger
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby Seruth » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:16 am

No, not Godfather. Give the ability to read whispers to the Forger as well. This decreases confirmability of the Spy and discourages whispers a bit more, without making them useless.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:45 am

For the people who say this would nerf Town too much, how often do Townies even whisper for other reasons? Sure, a Lookout might whisper its target asking for its night results. However, that player should be giving their night results in the daychat unless they are scum. Also, confirmed Townies often find each other through whispers. Confirmed Townies are another thing that should not exist. Town is the uninformed majority and should have to work in order to find scum. A Lookout could whisper that they found the Jailor, but they could easily just say, "I know your role I'm Lookout." The Jailor could then jail the Lookout.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby M3rkTiger » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:53 am

alex1234321 wrote:For the people who say this would nerf Town too much, how often do Townies even whisper for other reasons? Sure, a Lookout might whisper its target asking for its night results. However, that player should be giving their night results in the daychat unless they are scum. Also, confirmed Townies often find each other through whispers. Confirmed Townies are another thing that should not exist. Town is the uninformed majority and should have to work in order to find scum. A Lookout could whisper that they found the Jailor, but they could easily just say, "I know your role I'm Lookout." The Jailor could then jail the Lookout.


The uninformed majority doesn't mean "never know anything ever" it means you have to find out who to trust and work together. Confirmed townies will happen regardless. If there were no confirmed town all day chat would be is just invests finding an evil and everybody calling them exe. Whispers are essential.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:59 am

M3rkTiger wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:For the people who say this would nerf Town too much, how often do Townies even whisper for other reasons? Sure, a Lookout might whisper its target asking for its night results. However, that player should be giving their night results in the daychat unless they are scum. Also, confirmed Townies often find each other through whispers. Confirmed Townies are another thing that should not exist. Town is the uninformed majority and should have to work in order to find scum. A Lookout could whisper that they found the Jailor, but they could easily just say, "I know your role I'm Lookout." The Jailor could then jail the Lookout.


The uninformed majority doesn't mean "never know anything ever" it means you have to find out who to trust and work together. Confirmed townies will happen regardless. If there were no confirmed town all day chat would be is just invests finding an evil and everybody calling them exe. Whispers are essential.

What about players trying to actively scumhunt? There should be as few confirmed Townies as possible in order to promote competitive play from the Town. There will always be Towns where nobody says anything besides TIs, but the game should not be balanced for bad players.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby M3rkTiger » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:15 am

alex1234321 wrote:
M3rkTiger wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:For the people who say this would nerf Town too much, how often do Townies even whisper for other reasons? Sure, a Lookout might whisper its target asking for its night results. However, that player should be giving their night results in the daychat unless they are scum. Also, confirmed Townies often find each other through whispers. Confirmed Townies are another thing that should not exist. Town is the uninformed majority and should have to work in order to find scum. A Lookout could whisper that they found the Jailor, but they could easily just say, "I know your role I'm Lookout." The Jailor could then jail the Lookout.


The uninformed majority doesn't mean "never know anything ever" it means you have to find out who to trust and work together. Confirmed townies will happen regardless. If there were no confirmed town all day chat would be is just invests finding an evil and everybody calling them exe. Whispers are essential.

What about players trying to actively scumhunt? There should be as few confirmed Townies as possible in order to promote competitive play from the Town. There will always be Towns where nobody says anything besides TIs, but the game should not be balanced for bad players.


I never said it was balanced for bad players, but how can players be competitive if there's absolutely no trust and nobody to trust? As I said, simply a silent town and executioner claims every time someone accuses someone else. It's already difficult to confirm some of the harder to confirm roles and some easier to confirm roles too. Not all players are scum readers. Not all players are investigatives, so I wouldn't expect anybody who isn't to speak out against someone. Giving godfather, a confirmed existing role, the ability to read whispers and taking away the town's most powerful asset, just makes town unable to work together, and if town can't work together, they lose. Plain and simple.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:32 am

M3rkTiger wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
M3rkTiger wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:For the people who say this would nerf Town too much, how often do Townies even whisper for other reasons? Sure, a Lookout might whisper its target asking for its night results. However, that player should be giving their night results in the daychat unless they are scum. Also, confirmed Townies often find each other through whispers. Confirmed Townies are another thing that should not exist. Town is the uninformed majority and should have to work in order to find scum. A Lookout could whisper that they found the Jailor, but they could easily just say, "I know your role I'm Lookout." The Jailor could then jail the Lookout.


The uninformed majority doesn't mean "never know anything ever" it means you have to find out who to trust and work together. Confirmed townies will happen regardless. If there were no confirmed town all day chat would be is just invests finding an evil and everybody calling them exe. Whispers are essential.

What about players trying to actively scumhunt? There should be as few confirmed Townies as possible in order to promote competitive play from the Town. There will always be Towns where nobody says anything besides TIs, but the game should not be balanced for bad players.


I never said it was balanced for bad players, but how can players be competitive if there's absolutely no trust and nobody to trust? As I said, simply a silent town and executioner claims every time someone accuses someone else. It's already difficult to confirm some of the harder to confirm roles and some easier to confirm roles too. Not all players are scum readers. Not all players are investigatives, so I wouldn't expect anybody who isn't to speak out against someone. Giving godfather, a confirmed existing role, the ability to read whispers and taking away the town's most powerful asset, just makes town unable to work together, and if town can't work together, they lose. Plain and simple.


But there is trust. If someone seems to be actively trying to find evil roles, chances are that they could be trusted. Ideally, day actions should be more important than night ones. Players that can't scumread are unable to take advantage of Town's most powerful asset, the day chat. A Townie that can't properly utilize the day chat is like a Mafia member that does not know how to kill. Town needs to work together through the day chat, not whispers.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby EmeraldDS » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:44 pm

/no support

Whisper games are an issue but this is not the answer. This severely nerfs Town's ability to share information among "confirmed" Townies. I get that the Town needs nerfing, but this just puts the same pressure on it as Spy put on Mafia. The point of whispers is that they are private. One role which can read whispers is enough. If one role is guaranteed to be able to read whispers in each Ranked game, then whispers would become obsolete.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby Jafetlamval17 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:56 pm

3 months necro-bump.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:18 am

EmeraldDS wrote:/no support

Whisper games are an issue but this is not the answer. This severely nerfs Town's ability to share information among "confirmed" Townies. I get that the Town needs nerfing, but this just puts the same pressure on it as Spy put on Mafia. The point of whispers is that they are private. One role which can read whispers is enough. If one role is guaranteed to be able to read whispers in each Ranked game, then whispers would become obsolete.

If the Town is forced to not whisper, I think that's fine. They don't need whispering, if they want to say something they should have to risk evils hearing it. It would also indirectly nerf roles like Jailor who would have to flat out reveal to claim their role. My problem is that anyone whispering with this change, unless whispers become silent, is that they'll be lynched. However, if whispers were silent to all but GF, I still wouldn't support this. It would screw over the NK, who wouldn't be able to whisper to someone like an NE, which is why I think that if any role should be able to read whispers, it should be an NE, they're the least biased faction that cannot help Town, and Town doesn't need whispers, and they definitely don't need to read whispers.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby Newtownie » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:02 pm

One of the reasons spy was nerfed was because it made it impossible for mafia to work together during the night because spy could see what they were saying. Town don't need a night chat because town are able to whisper during the day. Blackmailer has forced them to be more cautious about this, which is good - it balances things out.. blackmailer isn't always there but town has to be wary until they're more confident about its existence or lack thereof.

Of the GF would hear whispers, it would totally cripple the ability of town to whisper and for confirmed roles to work together - which is totally unfair. It's a far too punitive solution to fix a much smaller problem.

A better solution might be for ANY player who has been brought back by the ret to lose their ability to whisper or hear whispers. It would limit this problem down even further.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby dyaomaster » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:14 am

Why does Town need a private chat? Townies should use Day chat. Besides, the Godfather is only there at the start of the game - near end game, we can reasonably expect that the Godfather is dead, the promoted Godfather is dead, and some RM is being the Mafioso.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby Jafetlamval17 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:26 pm

Five months necrobump. Very gud.
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Re: Let Godfather Read Whispers

Postby BS4125 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:27 am

Typically this isn’t a necrobump as Rule 4 isn’t broken. Please do not post off-topic posts, if you think it’s a necrobump, contact a RI Mod.

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