Investigator Results Overhaul

Old Role Ideas

Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:57 pm

Investigator, as a role, was meant to be a sort of "partial rolecop" - figuring out the roles a target could be. It used to be broken, but now, after the investigator's results were overhauled, people assumed it was fine.

It was not.

The investigator's results had one problem: in an ideal rolelist with one town investigative only, two investigatives aren't likely. Therefore, an Investigator/Mayor/Consigliere result would essentially be Mayor/Consigliere, with an off chance that screws them into a claim. This is bad and should be fixed. There were also other trouble spots such as VH/Survivor/Witch. I also find it a bit too OP in practice and it needs 4-role results at least IMO (outside of counterparts).

All Investigative results are balanced for the most recent official patch. Potential changes that are not yet implemented will not be addressed until/unless they are. I also changed the town, mafia, and survivor colors a tad because they are more aesthetically pleasing.

Here we go:
Spoiler: Your target is a powerful town leader. They must be the Mayor, the Jailor, or the Retributionist.
》》In the roles' current states, the closest thing here to a reliable fakeclaim is Retributionist, and giving Investigator a bit more power this whole change considered is something I wouldn't mind.
Your target has knowledge of secret information. They could only be a Spy, Vampire Hunter, or Blackmailer.
》》Traditional Spy/Blackmailer pair with a leftover I couldn't shoo in anywhere else. Vampires are a pretty secret group, so only someone dedicated to their cause (or the elimination of) would know about them.
Your target tends to disturb the peace. You note that they are either an Escort, Transporter, Consort, or Disguiser.
》》Classic Escort/Consort results plus a shoo-in. I'd honestly prefer Transporter to be silent so Consort has two risky claims, but whatever, because I was left with a lack of options and can't do much. Disguiser thrown in because it can be just about anywhere.
Your target owns copious books on ancient studies. You realize that they could only be an Investigator, Medium, Consigliere, or Witch.
》》Quite honestly I want Witchsigliere repealed and something else to go here, but she'll do for now. Medium thrown in to add ambiguity and to not lock scum into a singluar claim until the cows come home.
Your target holds a position of respect and authority. They are therefore a Sheriff, a Vigilante, the Godfather, or an Executioner.
》》Godfather now has two claims - Sheriff, your bread and butter Investigative, the Vigilante as a partway shoo-in and partway fakeclaim, and the Executioner to explain its immunity. If your target has a gun and will shoot anyone, you're gonna respect them.
Your target is always alert. You deduce that they could only be a Lookout, the Veteran, a Forger, or the Werewolf.
》》All four roles have something to do with visits. Lookout is a powerful role yet a good fakeclaim so yeah, Veteran's a shoo-in and last resort fakeclaim.
Your target studies death. They could be either a Bodyguard, the Mafioso, or a Survivor.
》》I always thought BG/GF/Arso was a balanced result due to the raw power of BG, but apparently it's not enough, so I switched out GF with Mafioso and added Survivor (who's color is now not an eyesore) to the mix.
Your target is covered in blood. You observe that they could only be a Doctor, Janitor, Amnesiac, or Serial Killer.
》》Doctor/Disguiser/Serial Killer was fine as a result but with the recent Disguiser change it was just Doctor/Seeial Killer, which instaconfirms the Doctor in Arsonist/Werewolf games. This is a better change, albeit not the most ideal. Amnesiac thrown in because it's a shoo-in.
Your target has evil plans hidden in plain sight. They can only be a Framer, Jester, Arsonist, or Vampire.
》》Framer/Jester is fine as a result IMO, as a Vigilante can shoot them and that may be more damaging to Town in the end. If not, the NE can still probably be confirmed and there'd be lynches again, but I'm not too sure on this one but it'll do unless you can convince me otherwise. Vampire has to be there to not screw over any other claims while still keeping harsh claimspace, as there should be, and Arsonist exists here because it frames with douses.


All in all, these changes help to make deducing the exact role harder, not locking scum into a specific claim, and overall helping the balance of the game and knocking Investigator down a peg as compared to Sheriff and Lookout. (#RemoveSpoi)
Last edited by Kirize12 on Fri May 12, 2017 10:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby xUltiix » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:35 pm

Kirize12 wrote: Vampire Hunter, or Blackmailer.

This result is a bit unfair due to spy needing removal. Will you put Tracker/Scientist/whatever else it is replaced with here instead?
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:49 pm

Kirize12 wrote:All Investigative results are balanced for the most recent official patch. Potential changes that are not yet implemented will not be addressed until/unless they are.


But yes, I will.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby xUltiix » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:56 pm

BMG will lose a lot of their players if they dont start proper balancing.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:07 pm

xUltiix wrote:BMG will lose a lot of their players if they dont start proper balancing.

Indeed, but this doesn't concern my results.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby BlazinIce » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:39 pm

Doctor/Janitor/Serial Killer/Amnesiac will cause a bunch of doctor claim lynches if both are in the game (sk/janitor, which are easily confirmed to be ingame.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:52 pm

BlazinIce wrote:Doctor/Janitor/Serial Killer/Amnesiac will cause a bunch of doctor claim lynches if both are in the game (sk/janitor, which are easily confirmed to be ingame.

Doctor is an incredibly strong role though.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby BlazinIce » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:53 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
BlazinIce wrote:Doctor/Janitor/Serial Killer/Amnesiac will cause a bunch of doctor claim lynches if both are in the game (sk/janitor, which are easily confirmed to be ingame.

Doctor is an incredibly strong role though.

Not stronger than a confirmed possible janitor/sk
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Spectre0 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Your target owns special protection. They could be either a Bodyguard, Mafioso, Survivor, or Arsonist.
》》I always thought BG/GF/Arso was a balanced result due to the raw power of BG, but apparently it's not enough, so I switched out GF with Mafioso and added Survivor (who's color is now not an eyesore) to the mix so Arsonist gets another explanation for immunity and a last-resort fakeclaim.


Can we stop making invest results that rape the Arsonist?

This can only work if douse-framing is implemented.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:42 pm

BG is an extremely powerful claim you know.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Spectre0 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:43 pm

Kirize12 wrote:BG is an extremely powerful claim you know.


BG is an instalynch unless you're playing with plebs.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:44 pm

Spectre0 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:BG is an extremely powerful claim you know.


BG is an instalynch unless you're playing with plebs.

You get to permanently wipe out a kill per night.

This is very powerful.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Spectre0 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:09 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
Spectre0 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:BG is an extremely powerful claim you know.


BG is an instalynch unless you're playing with plebs.

You get to permanently wipe out a kill per night.

This is very powerful.


What's this I hear about mafia having at least one killer all the time?

Also, BG's effectiveness doesn't make it any less of a scumclaim.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby BS4125 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:27 am

I'm just concerned about Bodyguard/Mafioso/Survivor/Arsonist since TP RT and Any in Ranked get confirmed really quickly and without a good claim, Mafioso and Arsonist will suffer with claiming Survivor, Survivor will also become more of an insta-lynch too paired with two killers and would have to claim Bodyguard to stay alive.

Even though Bodyguard can handle a lot of pressure I still think this is too much and I believe that Mafioso and Arsonist should have two Town claims since Mafioso is weak as it is (the weakest killer out of evils) and this result is seemingly for if the Arsonist doesn't get the buff, in my opinion I think Godfather shouldn't have two Town claims since he already has a faction helping him and Detection Immunity and lessening his claims would go nicely so swapping Vigilante and Survivor would work well

Also Medium is a good claim that could be paired with a larger evildoer that needs a good claim and is wasted on the Investigator/Consigliere/Witch result and if he doesn't have any Investigation Results with, he is likely to get lynched

Otherwise fine

Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:53 am

But Survivor can be a last-resort Immune claim for arsonist, something a vigilante cannot do. It's not like either are really claimable at this moment in time.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby BS4125 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:05 am

Kirize12 wrote:But Survivor can be a last-resort Immune claim for arsonist, something a vigilante cannot do. It's not like either are really claimable at this moment in time.

Bodyguard has a vest which can explain Night Immunity so Survivor doesn't add anything different to the table except putting more pressure on Bodyguard, Vigilante however is a good claim for evils though and goes well with Mafioso too

Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:09 am

The whole point of Sheriff/Executioner/Godfather is so GF has two outs - a weaker but reliable Town claim and EXE to explain his immunity. Survivor adds nothing to the table in either case, and in my opinion GF does need two town claims because the whole point is for him to have "Detection Immunity".
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby BS4125 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:59 am

Godfather is already Detection Immune enough, Mafioso however needs more cover. Also yes Survivor shouldn't go with GF/Sheriff/Exe so it should be placed somewhere else

Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:03 pm

What do you suggest?

@Spectre BG is too risky a lynch. I wouldn't want to lynch someone with a BG claim unless they were legitimately acting scummy.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:23 pm

BS4125 wrote:Godfather is already Detection Immune enough, Mafioso however needs more cover. Also yes Survivor shouldn't go with GF/Sheriff/Exe so it should be placed somewhere else

The Godfather should have a really good invest result because it's supposed to be fully detection immune. I really don't want to make it so Sheriff is able to find GF, but I will if that will reduce swing.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby khakha1036 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:57 pm

Your target is a powerful town leader. They must be the Mayor, the Jailor, or the Retributionist.

Only Mayor is the leader of the town and too much townies for 1 result.
Your target has knowledge of secret information. They could only be a Spy, Vampire Hunter, or Blackmailer.

I guess this is fine.
Your target tends to disturb the peace. You note that they are either an Escort, Transporter, or Consort.

This is ok, too
Your target owns copious books on ancient studies. You realize that they could only be an Investigator, Medium, Consigliere, or Witch.

Ancient is not include Invest and Consig.
Your target holds a position of respect and authority. They are therefore a Sheriff, a Vigilante, the Godfather, or an Executioner.

No comment, Idk what to said about this was vigi hated by many people? Was exe deserve a respect?
Others, I was too lazy to read. So I guess better try next time?
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Damafaud » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:47 am

..............cloud.
khakha1036 wrote:
Your target is a powerful town leader. They must be the Mayor, the Jailor, or the Retributionist.

Only Mayor is the leader of the town and too much townies for 1 result.All roles here are easily confirmed and not a good claim for evils. Lore doesn't matter much.
Your target has knowledge of secret information. They could only be a Spy, Vampire Hunter, or Blackmailer.

I guess this is fine.
Your target tends to disturb the peace. You note that they are either an Escort, Transporter, or Consort.

This is ok, too
Your target owns copious books on ancient studies. You realize that they could only be an Investigator, Medium, Consigliere, or Witch.

Ancient is not include Invest and Consig.Lore doesn't matter.
Your target holds a position of respect and authority. They are therefore a Sheriff, a Vigilante, the Godfather, or an Executioner.

No comment, Idk what to said about this was vigi hated by many people? Was exe deserve a respect?Lore still doesn't matter.
Others, I was too lazy to read. So I guess better try next time?Splendid. You didn't even read everything.


Lore doesn't matter and my infinitesimal respect for you have decreased.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Spectre0 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:24 am

Arsonist gets another explanation for immunity and a last-resort fakeclaim.


Neither of those will ever save the Arsonist, ever.

He's still utterly screwed by those results.

Still, these are an improvement over what we have. I would switch Godfather and Arsonist mostly because Godfather is a more powerful role and can take the riskier investigator results.
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby AegonSnow » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:44 am

Your target tends to disturb the peace. You note that they are either an Escort, Transporter, or Consort.


How about:

Your target knows how to move others. You note that they are either an Escort, Consort, or Transporter


also:
---other ideas---

Your target is a powerful leader: Mayor, Godfather, Retributionist

Your target holds a position of respect and Authority: Sheriff, Jailor, Arsonist, Executioner

Your target owns special protection: Bodyguard, Mafioso, Vigilante, Survivor
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Re: Investigator Results Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:17 pm

I just don't see why protectives shouldn't have a lot of pressure. They are easily the most powerful and most fakeclaimble utility roles for Town (besides TK and TPow, neither of which are claimable in the current state)
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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