Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Old Role Ideas

Should this role be added to the game?

Yes. It brings an innovative, balanced and impactful Neutral Benign role to the game.
76
90%
No. (Explain please)
8
10%
 
Total votes : 84

Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:14 pm

Voting is appreciated in order to gain a consensus on the role. Commenting is also appreciated to help improve on the role as-well as give positive reinforcement.

Rolecard: Credit goes to TenNoOkami. Disclaimer: Words used in the post have been changed to fit the role-card. In particular, 'leaders' and 'factions'. Read the full post before reading the role-card. Spoiler: Image

Character Skin Credit goes to TenNoOkami. Spoiler: Image
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Inspired by the lives of Socrates and Leonardo Da Vinci.

Name: Polymath

Alignment: Neutral Benign

Summary: An intellectual who believes that an unexamined life is not worth living.

Abilities: Target someone at night to get their alignment and clues of their highest priority peer.

Attributes:
- Your examining ability will only work following the Alignment Order. (refer to additional information for info on the Alignment Order)
- When you target someone you will be informed of their alignment and then given clues on who their highest priority peer is in their alignment.
- If your target selected does not follow the alignment order, you will be given a notification stating that the person's alignment "is not what you are looking for".
- The Clues: Four names will be given to you, with one of them being the highest priority player of that target's alignment.
- After successfully targeting the needed alignment, there will only be check-boxes available for the players mentioned in the clues.
- When you successfully identify the highest priority player in an alignment, the highest priority player in the next alignment that follows the Alignment Order will be informed the following night of the player's identify ( name and alignment) and priority status(highest).

Special Attributes: Bite Immune

Win Conditions:
Wins with Town, Mafia, Vampires, Serial Killer, Arsonist, Werewolf, Witch
Must Complete Your Goal in order to win.

Goal: Identify the highest priority players belonging to two of the three super-alignments.

Investigative Results:
Sheriff: Your target is not suspicious
Investigator: Your target is waiting for the perfect moment to strike. They could be the Investigator, Mayor, Consigliere, or Polymath.
Consigliere: Your target examines the world around them. They must be a Polymath!

Priority Ranking:
Spoiler: If the role dies or is not present in the game, the role following will take its place as the highest priority player.
The list goes from highest priority to least priority

Town:
- Mayor
- Jailor
- Veteran
- Retributionist
-Transporter
- Bodyguard
- Doctor
- Sheriff
- Investigator
- Spy
- Lookout
- Vigilante
- Escort
- Medium
- Vampire Hunter

Mafia:
- Godfather
- Mafioso

Neutral: (added the Polymath at the very bottom in-case all other Neutrals are dead)
- Werewolf
- Serial Killer
- Arsonist
- Vampire
- Witch
- Survivor
- Amnesiac
- Executioner
- Jester
- Polymath


Additional Information:
Spoiler: - The three names chosen for the clues are randomly generated except for one, whom is the top priority peer of the target's alignment.
- Your ability will only work identifying the players when following the Alignment Order. (Identifying town, mafia, neutral in that order and the order repeats if completed)--(Town and Mafia is the ideal scenario in order to reach your goal which is identifying 2 of the 3 alignments, if mafia gets eliminated ; Town and Neutral, if Town gets eliminated; Mafia and Neutral)
- The Notifying Alignment Order (Town,Mafia,Neutral) : Town's top priority player is told to mafia's top priority player, mafia's top priority player is told to neutral's top priority player, and neutral's top priority player is told to Town's top priority player. If Mafia die, the Neutral's player will be informed of Town's identity ; If Neutral die, Town will be informed of Mafia's identity. If Town die, the Mafia will be informed of Neutral's top player.
- You will not know the identify of the person who received your message, but only that your message was sent and received.
- If the highest priority neutral is yourself or a Neutral Killing, the next alignment will not be given a notifying message. However you will still be informed that your message was sent and received.
- Note: Your presence as the only neutral in the game will not impact the notifying alignment order, for if you leak the identity of the mafia when all neutrals are dead, the information will be sent to the town regardless of the fact that you are the only neutral left. You cannot leak information to yourself. The only time you being the leader of the neutral alignment is applicable is when you are identifying the neutral alignment.
- If the highest priority player of the alignment you are attempting to identify dies and your current clue does not contain the next highest priority player of that alignment, you will immediately be given another clue but with only 2 names to choose from.
- If the mayor reveals while you are identifying the town leader, you will be forced to find the next town leader and thus will be given another clue with only 2 names, similiar to what happens when the leader dies. If the mayor reveals the next role on the town priority list will take its place as the leader of town.
- The two new randomly generated names will be given on the morning that the person dies or when the night begins if they are lynched.
- If the target you selected for the alignment ends up being the top priority player as well, you will be notified and no clues will be given
- After you reach your goal, you will still be able to examine players and get people's alignment following the alignment order, which will loop if you complete it, and you will continue to inform the other alignment after you have identified your targets.


Notifications and Simulated Examples: (This is very important to read in order to understand the role visually)
Spoiler: N1: You have chosen to examine Adam Locke (On the night you target someone for their alingment)
N1: Adam Locke's alignment is Town. John Smith, Deodat Lawson, Mary Johnson, or James Bayley is Adam Locke's highest priority peer. (at the end of the night)
N2: You have chosen to examine Deodat Lawson. (start of night when trying to find the top priority player from the names in the clue)
N2: Deodat Lawson's priority does not exceed expectations. ( End of night)
N3: You have chosen to examine James Bayley.
N3: James Bayley's priority exceeds expectations! He is the top priority player of the Town Alignment! (End of night)
N4: "You have found scribbled notes left over from the Polymath. It says that James Bayley is the top priority player in the Town Alignment!" (the message received to the top priority player in the Mafia alignment at the start of the night)
N4: Your scribbled notes were found by the highest priority player in the Mafia alignment. (message received at the start of the night)
N4: You have chosen to examine John Smith.
N4: Mary Eastey's alignment is Mafia. Cat, Dog, Elephant or Zebra is Mary Eastey's highest priority peer. (at end of the night)
N5: repeat ^ until you get the mafia , which case you win. If all mafia die before you do, you have to get the neutral's top player. Keep in mind even if you reach your goal you can still keep examining and loop the alignment order.

OR if your target you choose does not follow the order of the alignments.
N5: Mary Eastey's alignment is not what you are looking for. ( Meaning it is not mafia/ or the alignment that follows next in the Alingment Order)
N6: You have chosen to examine Jennifer King.
N6: Jennifer King's alignment is Mafia. ^ repeat -->

OR
(if you find the highest priority player when deciding on who to examine for an alignment)
N5: You have chosen to Examine George Adams. (start of night)
N5: George Adam's alignment is Mafia. He is the top priority player in the Mafia Alignment! (end of night)

OR
(if the top priority peer dies before you identity them)
N5: You have chosen to Examine Voltaire. (start of night)
N5: Voltaire's alignment is Mafia. George Washington, Smith, Kennedy, or Rousseau is Voltaire's highest priority peer. ( end of night)
M6: Kennedy was found dead in their home. (morning announcement)
M6: Kennedy was Mafia's highest priority player. Jasmine or Rose is the Mafia alignment's top priority player now. ( private notification to you)
If the top priority player is still within the list given previously, no message will be given.


Impact:
Spoiler: The Polymath is a Neutral Benign role who's goal and abilities impact the game equally and fairly without picking favorites. The Polymath does not have the freedom to choose which alignments to impact more than others because of the Alignment Order system. This order forces the Polymath to impact alignments in an order in order for its abilities to work and goal to be reached. The order forces the NB to go against Town,by making it its first target, and then Mafia or Neutral. Due to the goal's initial difficulty, you must only find 2 of the 3 alignments, but the order still stands and you can still find all three. Mafia being 2nd ensures that the Polymath goes against the Mafia. There is always issues with the NB siding with the Town or Mafia, so I purposefully made the Polymath go against both Town and Mafia. The Neutral alignment is also effected by having its identity leaked but its last in the order so it is effected later in the game. The NK and Town can also deal with the non-killing mafia roles and their threatening ability by getting rid of the killing-mafia role that is leaked and thus forcing the non-killing role to lose its ability and become a killing-role. After the goal is completed, the Polymath is still able to carry out its ability and find the remaining alignments, or make a loop and find the remaining priority players in the alignments you have already completed. However you do not have to , as such actions yield no reward for your goal because it is already completed and thus you win regardless. This makes the role still a threat even after its done its goal, especially for the alignment that you have not yet identified but can potentially if you stay alive.

What is this role's full impact potential?

The role can potentially inform to the mafia early in the game who the jailor, mayor, retributionist, Veteran, TP's or TI's are. This has immense repercussions on the town, if they allow such information to be sent. The role can also potentially inform the NK's who the Godfather/Mafioso is in the middle of the game, allowing it to get an advantage on the killing roles in the mafia, which can prove vital later in game, in terms of getting it lynched, killing it, or avoiding it and not wasting a night on an immune. The town can also be infomed of a neutral's identity(except NK) which also holds potential implications, depending on what role is leaked to the town. If the NK's are dead, a NE like a witch can potentially be informed of a mafia's GF or Mafioso, giving it huge leverage and impacting it significantly, for the benefit of itself and in some cases, the mafia as well. If the mafia are dead however, the Town's identity is given to the Neutrals, meaning the NK or Witch can potentially be informed of the jailor,mayor, retributionist, TP's role which is extremely impactful as the NK can eliminate them or a Witch can control them. If the Neutrals die before you identify the mafia, the GF/Mafioso can potentially be given to the Town, which can tip the scale of balance immensely. The role, after it goal is completed(if it found the town and mafia), can still voluntarily find the neutral alignment's top player, meaning it can potentially find the neutral's top priority and inform it to town, which like mafia, can tip the balance greatly in late-game situations.

The impacts are as endless as the priority list rankings go, with each priority role having possible impacts if it becomes exposed or if it gains certain knowledge, and to what alignment the information is sent holds new consequences.

The Polymath is still able to use its ability making it a threat even after its goal is completed, and a role that should never be ignored.


Lore:
Spoiler: The Polymath, once a professor at the Scool of Salem, is now constantly on the move from those that wish him dead. His curiosity of the world has made him meddle into affairs that no ordinary individual would willingly involve themselves in. The Polymath is fascinated with the secrecy that envelops the Town of Salem, and wishes to identify those deemed most important in the town. The Polymath has a keen eye for observation, and always carries around a notebook in which he writes down all the information he gathers. He does not care for who is good or bad, but merely examines those around him for his own curiosity. What makes the Polymath so troublesome, is that he meddles into the business of both the Town, Mafia and Neutrals, and his information being potentially accessible through his journal means that his information can be accessed by specific individuals. When word gets out that the Godfather found scribbled notes left over from the Polymath's notebook, which appear to contain the identity of the Jailor, the mafia start to panic and begin to increase their search for him before he identifies the most important person in the mafia, the Godfather. After eliminating the Jailor, they focus themselves on the Polymath.

A few days pass, and rumor has it that the Polymath has been staying in one of the Inns. The Godfather enters the Inn and starts to knock down all the doors in hopes of locating the Polymath. While the Godfather continues to cause havoc upstairs, a mysterious, furry, figure enters the Inn and with its animal-like eyes, spots a piece of scribbled paper on the floor at the one of the tables. He realizes the scribbled notes were deliberately placed and leftover from the Polymath, and when he glances at the paper, a grin starts to appear.

The Godfather knocks down the last door in the hall, and sees what appears to be the Polymath standing still with his back to the wall. The Godfather approaches, raises his gun and points it towards him. The Polymath does not seem afraid, although, a little shaky. The Godfather asks "why are you not afraid", and the the Polymath responds "An unexamined life is not worth living"..."Shoot me if you wish" the Polymath continues after a pause. The Godfather wonders silently, "Are you not afraid of death" he asks. "Death may be the greatest of all human blessings" the Polymath responds, with sweat trickling down his forehead as the Godfather begins to squeeze the trigger.

The Polymath closes his eyes, and after a pause, opens his eyes in shock as a gunshot goes off. The bullet went right past him and into the wall, and the Godfather lay dead on the floor, right where he once stood, and what stands there now in his place, is the Werewolf. The Werewolf and Polymath stare at each other for a moment, and then the Werewolf begins to move and walks right past him, skimming shoulders, and begins to open the window. The Polymath looks back as the Werewolf makes his exit, and goes to sit down on the bed in relief that he did not die, even though his goal has been completed. The Polymath however does not get discouraged by the fear of death, and decides to continue examining the world around him even if it gets him killed, because after all, an unexamined life is not worth living.


Achievements:
Spoiler: Rennaisance Man: Win your first game as a Polymath.(5TP)
Plato: Win 5 games as a Polymath.(5TP)
Socrates: Win 10 games as Polymath.(10TP)
Leonardo Da Vinci: Win 25 games as Polymath.(25TP)
The unexamined life is not worth living: Get lynched by a town majority vote.(5TP)
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing: Fail to identify your target's alignment because it does not follow the alignment order.(5TP)
Death may be the greatest of all human blessings: Get killed at night.(5TP)
The beginning is the most important part of the work: Identify the highest priority target of an alignment on the first night.(10TP)
Know thyself: Identify yourself as the highest priority Neutral.(15TP)
Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence: Identify a Neutral Killing as the highest priority Neutral.(20TP)
Guardians of the Republic: Complete two loops of the Alignment Order before any alignment is wiped out.(25TP)
Soul of the Age: Complete three loops of the Alignment Order before the game ends.(25TP)
The knowledge of all things is possible: Identify a Godfather as the highest priority Mafia and notify the Godfather's identity to a Werewolf.(25TP)

Progressive Leader Identification Achievements:

Town: 25 TP for each.

Identify the Mayor as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Jailor as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Veteran as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Retributionist as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Transporter as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Bodyguard as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Doctor as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Sheriff as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Investigator as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Spy as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Lookout as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Vigilante as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Escort as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Medium as Town's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Vampire Hunter as Town's Leader 25 times.

Mafia: 25 TP for each.

Identify the Godfather as Mafia's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Mafioso as Mafia's Leader 25 times.

Neutral: 25 TP for each.

Identify the Werewolf as Neutral's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Serial Killer as Neutral's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Arsonist as Neutral's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Vampire as Neutral's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Witch as Neutral's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Survivor as Neutral's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Amnesiac as Neutral's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Executioner as Neutral's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Jester as Neutral's Leader 25 times.
Identify the Polymath as Neutral's Leader 25 times.



Update Log:

Spoiler: Updated Changes: ( July 25, 2016)

- Updated Abilities
- Updated Attributes
- Updated Goal
- New Investigator Result
- Updated the Notifications and Simulated Example
- Removed Additional Information and Impact section ( will add Impact later in the future)
- Added a new Additional Information section (short and sweet; "extras" for attributes)

Recent Updates: ( July 28, 2016)

- Cleaned up and shortened Attributes, added more into Additional Information.
- Lore has been added.
- Impact section has been added.
- Removed the investigative ability. Edited the attributes and information in the different sections in the post to correspond with the changes.
- Added Vet and Spy in the priority list.
- Poll has been added.

Recent Updates: (August 3, 2016)

- Added investigator result
- Added a role-card

Recent Updates: (August 6, 2016)

- In light of the updates, Blackmailer has been moved up the priority list ranking.

Recent Updates: (August 11, 2016)

- Transporter has been moved higher in the priority list ranking, landing him a place above the Town Protective roles.
- Mafia Priority List has been cleaned up.

Recent Updates: (August 13, 2016)

- Added Progressive Leader Identification Achievements.

Recent Updates: (August 27, 2016)

- Added further Mayor interactions. Cannot identify a revealed mayor.
- Added an extra achievement.

Recent Update: (August 29, 2016)

- Changed the clues from 3 players to 4 players.


Thanks for reading and I hope you enjoyed it. Feedback is greatly appreciated.
Last edited by Skulomania on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:43 am, edited 157 times in total.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Damafaud » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:55 am

I've read this role. It's a nice and quite balanced role. However, the explanation is just too long and confusing. Many people won't read it because of that.
A shortened version will be nice and more pleasant to read.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:10 am

Damafaud wrote:I've read this role. It's a nice and quite balanced role. However, the explanation is just too long and confusing. Many people won't read it because of that.
A shortened version will be nice and more pleasant to read.


Thanks for taking the time to read it and giving feedback.

Edit: I have cleaned up and summarized the Attributes better. I also added more direction to the Additional Information section and added what is the most important to read before-hand in multi-colors and took away the 'Before-Reading'. I also edited a few things here and there to shorten the post. I also changed the order of the sections to have the most important information at the top.

Let me know if this has helped.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby BPsycho2 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:19 am

Your target awaits the perfect moment. They are either a Sheriff, Polymath, Executioner, or Werewolf.

This could also go with Investigator and Consigliere.


Town
Mayor
Jailor
Retributionist
Bodyguard
Doctor
Etc

Mafia
Godfather
Mafioso (Right hand)
Consigliere (Left hand)
Janitor (Most powerful)
Framer (Easily detectable, yet deceptive.)
Consort (Disruptor of Power)
Forger
Disguiser

Neutral
Werewolf (Unique. Strong, yet blind.)
Serial Killer
Arsonist
_______ (It will not tell an NK who another NK is, but rather, these roles down here, in this priority of knowing.)

Witch
Survivor (can both side with them)
Amnesiac
Executioner
Jester
Polymath
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:28 am

BPsycho2 wrote:Your target awaits the perfect moment. They are either a Sheriff, Polymath, Executioner, or Werewolf.

This could also go with Investigator and Consigliere.

Town
Mayor
Jailor
Retributionist
Bodyguard
Doctor
Etc

Mafia
Godfather
Mafioso (Right hand)
Consigliere (Left hand)
Janitor (Most powerful)
Framer (Easily detectable, yet deceptive.)
Consort (Disruptor of Power)
Forger
Disguiser

Neutral
Werewolf (Unique. Strong, yet blind.)
Serial Killer
Arsonist
_______ (It will not tell an NK who another NK is, but rather, these roles down here, in this priority of knowing.)

Witch
Survivor (can both side with them)
Amnesiac
Executioner
Jester
Polymath


Yeah i was thinking of changing the priority list but was unsure what to base off my 'priority' on. I'll adjust the priority ranking with your suggestion. I definitely think the new priority list makes this role a much bigger threat, to town and mafia in particular.

And for the investigator result, do you think it should be with the sheriff or with the consig/invest and depending if it gets some type of night immunity or vest , do you think the BG claim with the current results is sufficient?

And just to clarify the statement you gave in the neutral list, the Neutral alignment does not find out who their top priority player is. But rather, the Town.

As it goes like this:

Town's top priority player is told to mafia's top priority player, mafia's top priority player is told to neutral's top priority player, and neutral's top priority player is told to Town's town priority player. Although the exceptions are that town is not notified if you or a Neutral Killing is the top priority neutral player.
I added this as a section note under Attributes to clarify.

And also, i am unsure about the special attributes. Should it have night immunity or an autovest. or something else?

Thanks again for the feedback, and i will make the due changes.
Last edited by Skulomania on Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby ThePhoenix42 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:11 pm

Skulomania wrote:And also, i am unsure about the special attributes. Should it have night immunity or an autovest. or something else?


I think it should have bite immunity

Also, if the entire mafia is killed or leaves night 1, then this role would automatically lose...maybe allow it to win after only finding 2 highest priority targets if an alignment is completely exterminated before the role reaches them in the order(e.g. if the entire mafia is killed before night 2, which is rare, but is possible (examples in spoilers), then you only need to find neutral's and town's highest priority target, although, as a nerf for this easier goal, maybe it mourns the exterminated role every time it reaches them in the order)

Possible ways for mafia to die before n2:
  1. Vet bait + lucky investigator
    Spoiler: most of mafia visits a vet (all but gf)
    gf was investigated by investigator and is lynched the next day
  2. The "I don't want to be mafia, you can't make me stay" Spoiler: gf, mafioso, and random mafia decide to leave n1
I know these methods require either a gamethrowing mafia or a cheating or lucky town, but they are possible in ranked and ranked practice.
Additionally, this would allow it to still be able to win in a neutrals vs. mafia custom role list

However, the bottom portion is just a way to avoid an instant loss due to a rare occurrence or a way to allow it to win in an unbalanced game mode...for normal game modes, I believe the role is pretty balanced and unique
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:02 pm

You make some good points that i have not thought about and thank you for the feedback.

I will make it Bite-Immune , although i am still debating if it should have some form of night immunity or protection, for it needs to live relatively long to complete its goal.

And you bring up a good issue in terms of the possibility of unlucky or game-throwing circumstances, as well as other unbalanced game modes that i was not aware of when making the role, for my intention was purely for balanced game modes like ranked in particular.

Although i don't know how i feel about changing the role to deal with game throwers in a balanced game environment, in terms of all the mafia leaving early in a game.
I think the unlucky early circumstances in terms of the early vet kill and investigative result (N1-N2) is an anomaly and should not be changed to avoid such circumstances, for roles like Witch, most of the time, also lose in these unfortunate events. This also applies to the game-throwing scenarios. Although i do hear your concerns and will try to come up with a solution that does not deviate too much from the role's makeup.

Your suggestion is good but i do not know how I feel about completely eliminating the mafia alignment in a balanced game mode as that is quite a big part of the role. If you however have other new suggestions that you feel may be more suitable, or if other people share similar concerns and have suggestions as well, feel free to let me know.

And I think for the unbalanced game issues, I will make is so that the Polymath's goal is to find the top priority players in all alignments that are present in the game. Meaning it can be Town , Mafia or Neutral in balanced games, and Mafia or Town or Town or Neutral in unbalanced game modes. How do you think that sounds?
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby BPsycho2 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:10 pm

Goal: find three important targets.

If there are no Mafia targets, you have to find a neutral?

I think visiting a target should give investigator results to you, maybe? It would help support an investigator claim.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby TandJ50 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:45 pm

I feel that this role is too hard to win as.

After you find the head townie, it may take a while to find a mafia or a neutral, let alone both. I think the goal should be to identify the head of 2 superalignments instead of all 3.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby BPsycho2 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:51 pm

^

Also, the problem is that it wins and it can just decide to tell everyone who the NK.

Maybe kill it after it wins
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:06 pm

BPsycho2 wrote:Goal: find three important targets.

If there are no Mafia targets, you have to find a neutral?

I think visiting a target should give investigator results to you, maybe? It would help support an investigator claim.


TandJ50 wrote:I feel that this role is too hard to win as.

After you find the head townie, it may take a while to find a mafia or a neutral, let alone both. I think the goal should be to identify the head of 2 superalignments instead of all 3.


BPsycho2 wrote:^
Also, the problem is that it wins and it can just decide to tell everyone who the NK.

Maybe kill it after it wins


I see that their may be potential issues with the Neutral Alignment and the possibility of outing the NK after you win, and with the difficulty of the goal.

So in this post I am proposing these changes to the various issues brought up and would like feedback on them to decide if i should implement said changes as well as help answer questions i bring up in my suggested changes.

To Fix Goal Difficulty
1. Identify the top priority player of 2 super-alignments instead of 3. Meaning that the Alignment Order still stands (you must identify town, mafia, neutral in that order) but if mafia get wiped before you identify them, you must then identify the neutral's top priority player. If you fail to identify the neutral's top player before either the neutral alignment gets wiped out, the game ends, or you die, you will lose.
The Notifying Alignment Order still stands as well , as in if you identify the town, the mafia will still be notified of the player , even if you fail to identify the mafia's head because they got wiped out later in the game. And if you identify the town and mafia are all dead, the neutral alignment's top player is notified instead.

Now in terms of what happens after you win, and the implications it may have on the Neutral Killing roles.

I am unsure of how i feel about the role killing itself after it wins, and i feel like there may be another side to the potential issue of the Polymath outing the NK.
I feel like the role should be rewarded for surviving and completing its goal, and the other players in the game should pay the consequence for not getting rid of the Polymath quick enough, just like players pay consequences for not killing all kinds of roles. The Polymath is no different, and the Neutral Alignment is not exempt from this pressure.

In terms of potentially outing the NK after winning, the Polymath does not necessarily know the top priority player's role.
However, I understand that with the Neutral Priority List changes, it makes it quite obvious in most situations if you have found the NK. And in light of this, I feel like changing the Neutral Alignment Priority list to put NK's more down on the list may solve this issue. The Polymath will not be informed that his message was not sent, and so he would not possibly know if the Neutrals top player was a NE , NB or NK, unless of course the Polymath himself is the top priority player which in case he knows that the player is him and no one else.
The role also already gives exceptions to the NK role by not informing the Town of their identity, although if the player chooses to go out of/against his role's function and out the NK verbally (even though he is not 100% that he is in fact an NK) I feel like he should be free to do that, as scummy as it is- just like Mafia are free to kill/lynch a witch even if it can win with them.

Fate After Goal With New Changes?
However i am still pondering about what should happen after the goal, especially if the goal is changed to 2 Alignments. Should the role be unable to use its abilities, like lets say it gets town and mafia N5, would it be unable to get Neutral for the remainder of the game or until it dies, or would it still be able to use its abilities and get the Neutral just for fun. Or, should the role kill itself after it reaches the goal. I am unsure.

Feedback is greatly appreciated on these proposed changes and questions.

And Thanks Psycho and TandJ for your suggestions and feedback.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby BPsycho2 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:54 am

I feel like box 1 would do all the guessing and box 2 would investigate.

Totally separate things.

Also, maybe after it wins, take away the guess work but keep the investigating?
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:07 am

BPsycho2 wrote:I feel like box 1 would do all the guessing and box 2 would investigate.

Totally separate things.

Also, maybe after it wins, take away the guess work but keep the investigating?


Ah i see where you are going with this.

So the first box would essentially be the box that finds the person's alignment , enables the clues, and finds the top priority player. While the 2nd box is there simply for extra investigative results to help with the guessing, so basically as an extra tool. I suppose this would help its claim as well, and give it something to do after its goal that can potentially influence all players on the field.

Edit: Made changes, read my following comment post to see the exact update changes.

Thanks again Psycho for your continued feedback.
Last edited by Skulomania on Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:59 pm

*Forgive me for the double post*

Edit : Moved the Updated Log to the role post.
Last edited by Skulomania on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:45 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Drackzgull » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:38 pm

I like the concept a lot, it sounds really fun to play and the lore read was epic.

There's only one issue I have with the idea, and it comes from this list, where it is said that Neutral Investigative roles should not be made. There is of course an exception for ideas that while fitting in those categories are still creative, fun and somehow balanced enough to become good roles, and I'm 100% certain the Polymath would be one such exception, but the second ability that returns Investigator results would need to be removed in my opinion.

To make up for that, I would have the Polymath be able to continue using his ability after achieving his goal, doing a lap around the Alignment Order if need be for this to be possible. The search for knowledge never stops after all!

Also I noticed the Veteran and the Spy are missing in the town priority ranking. I'm thinking putting the Veteran 3rd on the list (right bellow the Jailor) would be apropiate, as it would both serve to add a lot of risk to the Polymath if he fails to identify the town's top priority player before the Jailor dies (and there is no Mayor, or the Mayor also died) which could be a sort of punishment, and also give the town an effective line of defense against the Polymath revealing the top priority town player to the mafia.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:12 pm

Drackzgull wrote:I like the concept a lot, it sounds really fun to play and the lore read was epic.

There's only one issue I have with the idea, and it comes from this list, where it is said that Neutral Investigative roles should not be made. There is of course an exception for ideas that while fitting in those categories are still creative, fun and somehow balanced enough to become good roles, and I'm 100% certain the Polymath would be one such exception, but the second ability that returns Investigator results would need to be removed in my opinion.

To make up for that, I would have the Polymath be able to continue using his ability after achieving his goal, doing a lap around the Alignment Order if need be for this to be possible. The search for knowledge never stops after all!

Also I noticed the Veteran and the Spy are missing in the town priority ranking. I'm thinking putting the Veteran 3rd on the list (right bellow the Jailor) would be apropiate, as it would both serve to add a lot of risk to the Polymath if he fails to identify the town's top priority player before the Jailor dies (and there is no Mayor, or the Mayor also died) which could be a sort of punishment, and also give the town an effective line of defense against the Polymath revealing the top priority town player to the mafia.


Thanks for the feedback, and the positive comment on the Lore. I put quite a bit of work into little things like that, so it is good to hear that you enjoyed reading it, and i always try to come up with original role ideas, and this role's ability is not something i have seen in the forums.

Yeah the 2nd ability for investigating was implemented after-the fact as a suggestion and was not initially apart of the role. And i like the idea of the ability being able to keep going regardless of if you win. So essentially, after you found the town and mafia, your goal is completed but you can still find the neutral and inform the town, or mafia whoever is alive at this point, or make a loop around if no other alignment is present , so town and mafia again depending on the game mode and who is alive. I actually am Iglad you gave feedback towards that ability change, as i was quite unsure of it. I'll make the change and restore it back to its original ability. The ability was added to help make the goal easier, but the goal was already nerfed from all 3 alignments to 2.

Although do you think after the goal, the alignment order message still stands or do the players not get informed anymore? Because i suppose if it does, the role would become a threat even after its goal, which is actually a good thing.

Ah , i like the vet logic. It would give mafia a bit of thinking as well, or neutrals, as in ' is this guy a vet , idk if we should attack' and also gives the role more of a challenge and risk factor when deciding who to pick. I'll add it 3rd. And i forgot the spy, so i'll add it right away.

Edit: The changes have been made

Edit: Poll has been added. Feel free to put in your vote, but remember that feedback , positive and negative, is always welcome!
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Drackzgull » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:04 pm

I realise the current investigator results for the Polymath are due to the second ability that was recently removed, they are now obsolete. I don't know what the original result was, but reverting to that is probably a good idea. Otherwise I have also come up with one I think would be fitting:

Your target seeks the secrets of life and people, they could be a Retributionist, Lookout, Polymath or Witch.
(This would also work as a slight buff to the Witch, and that's a good thing)

And yeah I would have the revealing messages of the Polymath continue after his goal is complete, that's what would make it fun and relevant to continue finding out top priority players.

Other than that I think this role has pretty much reached perfection at this point :)
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Cenas4life » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:19 pm

This is creative and innovative. A great Nuetral Begin role that actually impacts other factions. I would love to see it in the game /support
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:13 pm

Cenas4life wrote:This is creative and innovative. A great Nuetral Begin role that actually impacts other factions. I would love to see it in the game /support


Thank you for the positive feedback. I am unsure if BMG actually implements role ideas from the forums, but if they do, having this role added would be great, but if not, i would at-least hope they somehow get a chance to read this role and that hopefully the Polymath helps influence BMG to start making some NB roles with the same driving philosophies found in the Polymath. I really do not want anymore Survivor/Amnesiac like NB roles in the game. The only "real" NB role is the Survivor, and the Survivor being the face of the Neutral Benign alignment makes me very sad.

Drackzgull wrote:I realise the current investigator results for the Polymath are due to the second ability that was recently removed, they are now obsolete. I don't know what the original result was, but reverting to that is probably a good idea. Otherwise I have also come up with one I think would be fitting:

Your target seeks the secrets of life and people, they could be a Retributionist, Lookout, Polymath or Witch.
(This would also work as a slight buff to the Witch, and that's a good thing)

And yeah I would have the revealing messages of the Polymath continue after his goal is complete, that's what would make it fun and relevant to continue finding out top priority players.

Other than that I think this role has pretty much reached perfection at this point :)


Yeah the investigator results are currently pending. I like your suggestion but i feel that using an already existent result would probably be better (from 1.5). Still debating which result (potentially not one with a NB already in it) to use, although i will potentially wait for the patch to come to get the final 1.5 invest results in. Although let me know if you have a suggestion from the current 1.5 invest result list.

and yeah i have made it so that it continues its goal, making it relevant until it dies or the game ends.

And yeah i think the role is pretty solid at this point. I really like the Polymath in particular just because i have never seen a role like it, but I will continue to look for and add improvements, and let me know if any new suggestions come into mind.

Thanks again for the feedback by the way.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Cenas4life » Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:44 am

Skulomania wrote:
Cenas4life wrote:This is creative and innovative. A great Nuetral Begin role that actually impacts other factions. I would love to see it in the game /support


Thank you for the positive feedback. I am unsure if BMG actually implements role ideas from the forums, but if they do, having this role added would be great, but if not, i would at-least hope they somehow get a chance to read this role and that hopefully the Polymath helps influence BMG to start making some NB roles with the same driving philosophies found in the Polymath. I really do not want anymore Survivor/Amnesiac like NB roles in the game. The only "real" NB role is the Survivor, and the Survivor being the face of the Neutral Benign alignment makes me very sad.


Your welcome and I agree with the whole survivor/amnesiac thing, and how it is sad that the survivor is the face of the nuetral begin alignment.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:11 am

It makes me sad because the Survivor is not a creative role at all and is quite poorly made. The role is fine if there is just one of it in the game, but because it is frankly the only "real" NB role, it is giving NB a bad reputation. (Survivor being universally hated because it literally does nothing and with the it technically being the only NB role, makes people dislike the Neutral Benign alignment entirely.)

And to anyone who hasn't voted, vote if you can! :)
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Cenas4life » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:23 pm

Skulomania wrote:It makes me sad because the Survivor is not a creative role at all and is quite poorly made. The role is fine if there is just one of it in the game, but because it is frankly the only "real" NB role, it is giving NB a bad reputation. (Survivor being universally hated because it literally does nothing and with the it technically being the only NB role, makes people dislike the Neutral Benign alignment entirely.)

And to anyone who hasn't voted, vote if you can! :)


I just voted. :D
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:35 am

Cenas4life wrote:
Skulomania wrote:It makes me sad because the Survivor is not a creative role at all and is quite poorly made. The role is fine if there is just one of it in the game, but because it is frankly the only "real" NB role, it is giving NB a bad reputation. (Survivor being universally hated because it literally does nothing and with the it technically being the only NB role, makes people dislike the Neutral Benign alignment entirely.)

And to anyone who hasn't voted, vote if you can! :)


I just voted. :D


Took you long enough! ;)

Now i just need to find out how to use this jedi mind trick cxl taught me in order to control more people to vote. lol
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby Skulomania » Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:39 pm

*Uses jedi mind trick to double post and bump the thread*

Looking for more feedback on the role from familiar , and not so familiar faces around the Role Ideas forum.
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Re: Polymath (Neutral Benign)

Postby superdog551 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:46 pm

Now this is how a NB role should be, you must have spent a long time to come up with this role :D

Very well made and well thought out role.

Honestly if this role isn't added to the game I wouldn't believe it.

I wish I could /support more than once to be honest, the detail in this role is incredible!
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