Osservatore (Mafia Support)

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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:35 am

It is never stated that you cannot visit your fellow Mafia members, so I don't see why that would be assumed. But I will add this anyways.
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby Sman808 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:37 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:It is never stated that you cannot visit your fellow Mafia members, so I don't see why that would be assumed. But I will add this anyways.

No other random mafia can without transporter/witch, so that is why.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:38 am

That's because they generally do harmful things to their targets. It's an anti-trolling measure.
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby Skulomania » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:45 am

Although i do wish the framer had the ability to target mafia to 'frame them as town'.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby Nellyfox » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:59 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:It is never stated that you cannot visit your fellow Mafia members, so I don't see why that would be assumed. But I will add this anyways.

Because with the current game mechanics no mafia can visit each other.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby BPsycho2 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:41 pm

Framer should be able to visit his fellow mafia members and frame them.

Just because if you're claiming outside of your results, you can cover it up, and fool the Spy while you're at it.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:02 pm

Nellyfox wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:It is never stated that you cannot visit your fellow Mafia members, so I don't see why that would be assumed. But I will add this anyways.

Because with the current game mechanics no mafia can visit each other.

Framer and consort should be able to do that though
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:05 am

I wouldn't be against letting any Mafia member visit another
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby YamiChan » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:51 am

I like the idea of the Mafia having a role kind of like this. There are some issues with this one, however.

-The name. It's kind of terrible. I'd rather we just stick with Tracker or how about Snoop?
-Being able to see who a player visits is fine. I don't think they should also see who visits the player and be able to visit their own teammates. The second ability would make the Mafia WAY to OP, especially when paired with a Consig.
-Hearing whispers is also too OP, especially since the BMer can already do that.
-What does it mean to ignore detection immunity?
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:11 pm

Osservatore is bad, but Snoop is good? I think Osservatore fits into the Mafia, seeing as they already have Consigliere. Snoop would seem out of place imo. Tracker is meh, but I usually imagine it as a Town role.

Hearing whispers is too OP because Blackmailer does it?

How would this make Mafia too OP? Mafia roles should be a bit stronger than Town roles, because Mafia members are a lot lower in numbers compared to Town. That's why Consig gets the actual result and not X/Y/Z.

Visiting their own people should be an ability of most/all Mafia roles.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby YamiChan » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:20 pm

"Osservatore" is a word that does not even seem to exist when you search for that, it doesn't fit with the game, and who wants to type that out? A role's name should also give you at least some idea what it does.

Yes. There doesn't need to be two Mafia roles that read spoilers.

Mafia roles do not need to be THAT strong.

Mafia should not be able to visit their own.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:22 pm

"Italian Mafia with a Godfather and Consigliere"

"Osservatore does not fit with the game"

Maybe Osservatore should read whispers and BMer should be removed ;)

But...why can't Mafia visit their own?
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby YamiChan » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:26 pm

Godfather and Consierge both sound common enough.

The last thing we need is to remove more roles.@_@ And the ability to read whispers along with all its other abilities is still too much.

Why should they be able to? For one thing, it would make gamethrowing Mafia that much more unbearable. It can also render Spies and Transporters useless, along with other roles.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:32 pm

Osservatore is what, Italian for Observer? Gee, I wonder what THAT does? Consigliere is okay and this isn't?

The night actions shouldn't actually go through on your fellow Mafia. It would just show you visiting. The only ones that would go through are Forges/Cleans when they actually die. One reason they're good is because as GF/Mafioso, you can target your own to shoot a Transporter who keeps transporting them.

Spies should be removed or replaced. It doesn't make Transporters useless. You have to actually know they're just transporting one Mafia member. This would lead to Transporters NOT doing that, which means if they want to transport Mafia, they'll have to be careful about it. Trans is really strong anyway.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:14 pm

Plug "Osservatore" into Google Translate

Jeez

Also Blackmailer would (obviously) lose the ability to read whispers - the Osservatore gets that power instead.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby YamiChan » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:53 pm

Everything about it is too much, and I've said why.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:00 pm

I assume you're talking about Mafia being able to visit other Mafia, right?

For one, it wouldn't do anything for gamethrowing. Make it so Mafia visiting other Mafia doesn't do anything, other than show up to lookouts and Spies.

As for ruining Spy, it should be replaced anyway. As Spy, if you just survive to lategame and write down every Mafia visit, you basically know who is and isn't Mafia. That's just too easy, and takes no skill. It's only other abilities ruin communication for scum completely.

As for Transporter, it's already too powerful anyway. It's basically a TP role, but it's a TS instead, and it's instantly confirmable. Making it a little weaker by allowing Mafia to target each other isn't a real nerf at all. Besides, Trans would only be effected if they're just transporting one Mafia member over and over again with themselves, which is unfair to Mafia anyway.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:21 pm

YamiChan wrote:Everything about it is too much, and I've said why.

No, you just said it was too much.

Food for thought: what advantage is there for the Blackmailer to read whispers instead of a not-as-good Consigliere-type role?

None. But there are advantages to the opposite being true, most notably allowing a semi-decent Investigative claim because it can investigate things, and allowing the whisper-reading Mafia Support role to also use its night ability without giving itself away.
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:05 pm

I thought you claimed that Osservatore was strictly better in the hands of an experienced player?

Something I'm not sure about is something Met brought up:

Metrion - 02/27/2017
Not really, because Mafia Lookout discourages optimal or even good Town Protective play just by exisiting. Which as a concept is a toxic one.
Kirize - 02/27/2017
Could the same not be said about the mafia kills?
Metrion - 02/27/2017
Not really, since scum have a lot of counter play
Town protectives literally have none
Kirize - 02/27/2017
Counter play? What do you mean?
Metrion - 02/27/2017
They have consorts, consigs, they can kill the lookout, blackmail them etc
It's not just a straight, nope
Metrion - 02/27/2017
Protectives time is just made miserable by the fact if they play correctly, they can be punished for it
Where as Mafia's already not to be targeting apt to be protected targets, they aren't punished a random percent of the time for playing correctly because going after that target isn't something you'd rationally do if you wanted to play safe.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby YamiChan » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:12 pm

No, I'm saying that EVERYTHING about it is too much. The basic idea of a Mafia role that can see who a player visits is good, but too much is added on. It doesn't need all those other abilities.

The odds of a Spy living that long aren't great, and the odds of them being certain who isn't Mafia decrease when Mafia doesn't have the Any, RM is a role that does not visit much or at all, and with the existence of a Trans or Witch.

The Transporter is NOT overpowered. I've said this so many times. They mess up results and all other actions. They can get themselves or Townies killed. They are chaos.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:18 pm

A bad transporter is chaos.

A good transporter will systematically kill off the entire scumteam in their sleep.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:19 pm

Transporters are chaos in the hands of bad players. A good transporter doesn't transport without a reason. If they're transporting every night, they're most likely doing so randomly and thus aren't all that good at the role.

Spy is just a bad role in general, and should be replaced/removed.

Now I'm just thinking about Kirize's second to last post about this role really. Good points.

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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby YamiChan » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:26 pm

If they're not transporting, then they can easily be killed. They are far from overpowered.

Spy is a fine role. It has been weakened a lot by recent changes, but it's still a fine role.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:37 pm

So why are you not transporting?

Spy is an overpowered role that has barely been weakened.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Osservatore (Mafia Support)

Postby YamiChan » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:39 pm

What do you mean, why am I not transporting?

It's been weakened severely, and you're getting off-topic.
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