Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

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Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:04 am

Partially inspired by: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=30524#p900654

The original thread worked with an idea of evil Retributionist which converts dead Townies into evil roles of their own choice. (thats controversional, refer to the current vanilla Vampire "convert a Town out of spite to have them lose" douchy strategy)

This works with an idea to add an evil Retributionist variant, which instead nerfs the Retributionist and its ressed targets by making then non-confirmed, adds new meta for evil roles, encourages evil roles to not leave the game once they die, and adds well balanced Neutral Evil role that supports all the Evil allignments while harming the Town. Its existence also shakes the whole "confirmed Town" meta in bounds, making it a bit riskier tactic, which is a major benefit for game balance.

Overhauled role:
Necromancer
Allingment: Neutral Evil

Description:
-You are an evil wizard who reanimates the dead.

Abilities:
-Choose one dead Town member and one dead evildoer in night.
-Following morning, the selected evildoer will be ressurected,
using the name and body of selected Town member. Only name of
selected Town member is removed from graveyard.
-Selected evildoer will know who ressurected them.
-If you die, your ressurected puppet will die as well.
-Unique role
-You can only ressurect once.
-You have a magical shield that protects you from one attack. It can only protect you against one attacker. (Passive one-time protection ability)


Win conditions:
-Survive to see the Town lose the game (same as Witch win conditions).


Investigator results: Retributionist, Disguiser, Necromancer. (naturally assuming Disguiser has been fixed)

----------------------
How it works?
Its basically evil counterpart of Retributionist, but it also utilizes mechanics typical for Disguiser. You choose one dead Town and one dead evildoer from the graveyard. It can be both Mafia or Neutral Evil/Killing/Chaos. In the next morning, typical Retributionist message of "Town member was ressurected last night!" will be displayed. The selected Evildoer will be given the body of selected Town member + their original, evil role. Necromancer basically force-disguises the dead Evildoer and ressurects then with a body of the selected Town member. To everyone on the outside, this appears as if Town member was ressurected (the Town member´s name is removed from the graveyard) but it is the dead Evildoer who is controlling their body.

Example:
Player 1 is Escort, Player 2 is Framer.
Graveyard wrote:Player 1 - Escort
Player 2 - Framer

Its night, and they are both selected by Necromancer.

REALITY wrote:Player 1 - Escort - DEAD
Player 2 - Framer - DEAD


Day begins.
"Player 1 was ressurected last night!"
Graveyard wrote:Player 2 - Framer


So, for average player, it seems as if the Escort was ressurected by Retributionist. However...

REALITY wrote:Player 1 - Escort - DEAD, disguised as Player 2
Player 2 - Framer - ALIVE, disguised as Player 1

Furthermore, the ressurected Framer knows who the Necromancer is, can share this information with the rest of his Mafia pals in the night, and they can start networking together with the Necromancer. However, Necromancer is not forced to win with Mafia - he can still chose to betray them and win with Neutral Killing. However, if Mafia did try to kill Necromancer and suceeded, the Framer would die instantly as well.

This adds new meta for evildoers who are dead. Whenever there is a Town member ressurected and Medium is in play, the evildoer can pretend they were originally the ressurected Town, who was force-disguised as, discrediting the actual ressurected Town member. On the other hand, they can also be ressurected themselves, so they shouldnt leave the game either. Medium can confront this strategy but its not easily verifiable, so this strategy is rather balanced.

Two final, extra mechanics worth mentioning - Your target knows who ressurected them. If you die, your ressurected puppet dies as well. This encourages you are not instantly betrayed by your ressed target, but you can chose to betray them if you want to. Similar to Witch, networking with Mafia, and knowing their names, your safety is ensured by fact the ressed target dies if you die. If you are lynched, your ressed puppet dies next morning.

Winning conditions are the same as Witch.

Additional questions answered:
Can Unique roles be ressurected? What happens if Godfather/Mafioso is ressurected?

Yes, Unique roles can be ressurected. In case of Mafioso/Godfather, this is how it will work:
Currently living Mafioso is promoted to Godfather.
The newly ressurected Mafioso/Godfather is always demoted to Mafioso. Meaning that a dead Godfather who gets ressurected by Necromancer will only be Mafioso.

If Necromancer and Retributionist both target the same Town member, what happens?

Simple answer is "the one who choses to file their night action first".

I thought about this for a while, there are ultimatedly multiple ways to solve this dilemma. But I think the most fair one is that the person who choses to ressurect/animate first, will be the role who uses their power. Meaning if Necromancer is first to click both the targets, he will animate the evil person as the former Town member. If Retributionist is first to click to ressurect said player, the Town player will be ressurected instead of the evil one. However, both roles will use up their action. This is the most fair decision because it depends on strategy and wit. It doesnt discriminate either Necromancer nor Retributionist, and it creates the dilemma of "is the person I ressurected really my ally?" in case there is a known fact of possible use of abilities. Meaning Necromancer might think they ressurected a Mafia member and will contact them, but in reality he will be contacting a Town member who got ressurected by Retributionist, who was first to decide to file the action in.

All feedback is welcomed! Dont forget to vote in the poll!
Last edited by Mroz4k on Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby Jerme » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:16 am

What happens if you revive a Godfather/Mafioso while there is still Mafia left?
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby JazzMusicStops » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:27 am

/support
Now this is how to do an evil ret
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby dota2reporter » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:48 am

JammySplodge wrote:/support
Now this is how to do an evil ret

*watches at jammy with devil eyes*
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:03 am

My problems with this role are not so much due to the role idea, and moreso with its interaction with other roles.

Retributionist is a unique role, and making it not unique would be a terrible idea. However, this isn't what causes the larger problem here.

The larger problem comes in when you attempt to change Retributionist in any way. This role prevents it becoming a part of Town Power, but also prevents the most widely accepted Retri nerf (dying when it revives someone) from occuring.

So, if Retri is going to be changed at all, this role cannot exist.

Other than that, it's not a bad idea.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby oliy » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:21 am

Huzzah for Mediums, Investigators, etc. That can catch them red-handed.

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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby Mroz4k » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:05 am

Jerme wrote:What happens if you revive a Godfather/Mafioso while there is still Mafia left?

Simply. If there is currently Godfather, the ressed role will be Mafioso. If there is currrently Mafioso, then the living Mafioso is promoted and the ressed role becomes Mafioso. May seem like its an overbuff, but its not that bad and it doesnt damage hierarchy. Looking at GF-Mafioso relationship, if there are both, one needs to be higher then another one... The whole purpose of Mafioso is to have hierarchy. Meaning that ressurecting a Mafioso would be futile if there would be no Godfather.
oliy wrote:Huzzah for Mediums, Investigators, etc. That can catch them red-handed.

Which is a good thing. Its not overpowered nor underpowered thing. As the ressed target can appeal the Town on their own. So we are back to the healthy, skill based meta. Something the game should be about, rather then confirmed Town roles & role collections.
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby lucas8411 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:11 am

What happens if the Ret and the Necro ressurected the same guy at same time?
IF YOU'RE READING THIS, I WANT TO SAY THAT I LEFT THE FORUMS.

Here is my last (goodbye) post in case you want to read it.

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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby JazzMusicStops » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:13 am

lucas8411 wrote:What happens if the Ret and the Necro ressurected the same guy at same time?

A black hole is created, sucking the entire town into the void

obviously
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby Technetium » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:22 am

JammySplodge wrote:
lucas8411 wrote:What happens if the Ret and the Necro ressurected the same guy at same time?

A black hole is created, sucking the entire town into the void

obviously

This could happen. Either make Ret and Necro mutually exclusive, or make it so that one trumps the other. I'd suggest that Necro's revive should trump Ret's, but the Ret revive will still be used up.
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby Mroz4k » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:26 pm

Technetium wrote:
JammySplodge wrote:
lucas8411 wrote:What happens if the Ret and the Necro ressurected the same guy at same time?

A black hole is created, sucking the entire town into the void

obviously

This could happen. Either make Ret and Necro mutually exclusive, or make it so that one trumps the other. I'd suggest that Necro's revive should trump Ret's, but the Ret revive will still be used up.

... Which is exactly what I had in mind.

Thanks guys. I forgot to put this into OP. Once Im on PC and not phone, I will update it.

P-edit: I mean Necro is superior to Retri.
Or it could be determined by who chose to use their action first. The same way killing works.
Last edited by Mroz4k on Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby PokemonKidRyan » Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:04 pm

JammySplodge wrote:/support
Now this is how to do an evil ret


I think it is a great idea too :D An evil retri, I love the concept so much
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby Mroz4k » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:37 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:My problems with this role are not so much due to the role idea, and moreso with its interaction with other roles.

Retributionist is a unique role, and making it not unique would be a terrible idea. However, this isn't what causes the larger problem here.

The larger problem comes in when you attempt to change Retributionist in any way. This role prevents it becoming a part of Town Power, but also prevents the most widely accepted Retri nerf (dying when it revives someone) from occuring.

So, if Retri is going to be changed at all, this role cannot exist.

Other than that, it's not a bad idea.

Town power is a bad idea anyways. Not everything that goes on in FM should be translated to FM. If you want to nerf Retributionist thats fine with me - but moving it into a different sub-allignment with most powerful Town roles is not the solution, not even a fix. Its just avoiding the problem - because then, the role still stays just as powerful as it used to be.

If you want to fix all-powerful roles, you need to limit their biggest strenghts in some way. The biggest of powers of Retributionist is that they can ressurect and instantly confirm themselves, as well as one more Town. If this role is in the game, there is no longer a need for that. Because there will never be an instant proof that ressurected player is trully a Town member, and that person who claims to be Retributionist is really the Retributionist. Even if they were checked afterwards, this is wasting a lot of time for the Town - lets not assume ressing takes place later in-game (or should, ideally) so the time to interrogate the ressed person is wasted in benefit of the Town...
And noone can just claim to ressurect someone to prove themselves - because the Necromancer could do the same, as a part of a strategy.

There would be no need to place Retributionist under Town Power, which is a good thing because Town Power is not the solution to the problem.

You want to nerf the Retributionist - limit it after it uses its ability. As in, make it mute, or its ressed target mute, or something of this sort. But really if this is implemented, there is no more need for nerfing Retributionist as the main goal of removing confirmed status has already been achieved.

dota2reporter wrote:
JammySplodge wrote:/support
Now this is how to do an evil ret

*watches at jammy with devil eyes*

Your suggestion had some merit, but no hard feelings, you are not the first person who thought of evil Retributionist. The thing I posted was in-progress project of mine for potentional Mafia Retributionist idea, with your inspiration I figured it would be better suited as Neutral Evil + pick a name for it. Tbh I didnt really have to give you credits for just that anyways, but I figured it would be polite to do so.

That still doesnt change that the core of the idea is my original idea so hey, no hard feelings. Besides, you are not the first person who tried for evil Retri - many people tried before you. Your idea was for sure one of the better ones, though. But you didnt put enough thought into it, in the end. Your way of re-converting someone who was supposed to win in the last chance as a payback... thats the typical controversive thing Vampire has. See how that goes... just take a peek at Ask Question/Suggestion threads complaining about it. Your idea was gonna be canned anyways.

JammySplodge wrote:
lucas8411 wrote:What happens if the Ret and the Necro ressurected the same guy at same time?

A black hole is created, sucking the entire town into the void

obviously

Im hoping you could provide some actual feedback on the role. I appreciate the words of encouragement but it doesnt really help me all that much. I´d rather if someone told me it sucks and explained why, then hear comments of this sort. Lets keep the thread seriously, please 8-)
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby HappyMatt369 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:37 pm

Nice work! Retri will no longer be a all-powerful role. However, if the fake town member dies, should the Necromancer die to? Just a question.
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby Technetium » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:38 pm

I'd say Necro would still live. After all, they still have a chance to work against the Town.
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby HappyMatt369 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:42 pm

Technetium wrote:I'd say Necro would still live. After all, they still have a chance to work against the Town.

Should anything happen? I mean, Necro should want to protect the other person too.
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby murat1996 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:46 pm

Where is the investigative results?

Do you think we should look at Dota's?
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:02 pm

It'd be Ret/Necro, obviously.

This of course leads to problems with confirming a Ret really easily if there is a Witch in-game, but...
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby Technetium » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:58 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:It'd be Ret/Necro, obviously.

This of course leads to problems with confirming a Ret really easily if there is a Witch in-game, but...

Nerfs Ret then. I'm down with that.
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:33 am

HappyMatt369 wrote:Nice work! Retri will no longer be a all-powerful role. However, if the fake town member dies, should the Necromancer die to? Just a question.

I´d rather it didnt. Actually, Necromancer shouldnt really socialize with their ressed target a lot, to not draw attention. And it could also be a pretty obvious ressurection, when Necro would be just buying time for the evildoers. So its best if Necro is innaffected while their ressed target dies if Necro dies.

orangeandblack5 wrote:It'd be Ret/Necro, obviously.

This of course leads to problems with confirming a Ret really easily if there is a Witch in-game, but...

Might as well put another unfittable role along with them. Either a Mafia member (which once again nerfs down Retri, but the Mafia member and Necro as well), or one of the unsociable Towns, like Transporter. It wouldnt be an instant death for Necro if Ret is disproved and it wont be instant confirmation of Retri, either.

Another potential change to this would be hidden controls. But I am not so sure thats a very good idea for a Witch buff, I´d rather the shield, honestly...

And lets not forget people could be lying about the Witch, or there might be Any slot, so its not always a confirmation of Ret... and in that situation, Ret would more easily prove themselves by action rather then through investigation, so its not like its really, really proven.
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:24 pm

Someone in the poll voted no. Yet, looking at comments, I only see very positive feedback. Could someone share whats wrong with this suggestion? I´d like to reflect on that, perhaps tweak it so its fixed. I am looking for both kind of feedbacks, both good and bad ones.

Anyways I am signing this into the competition, lets see how that goes :D
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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:11 am

Okay okay

So the problem isn't that it's too easy to confirm either the Ret or the Necro. The problem is that there is no suitable Mafia role in that Invest result. In order to keep the Invest results balanced, there should ideally be Town/Mafia/(Non-Mafia), where the Mafia can claim the Town role in its result and not be instantly disproved. The Necro/Ret result has no way to work in a Mafia role without screwing it over. This means that this result is confirmed non-Mafia, and the moment the single NE is found (which can be early if it is a Witch) the Ret is still confirmed Town.

This is pretty much my only problem with this role.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Dota´s Necromancer (Neutral Evil) overhauled

Postby Mroz4k » Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:36 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Okay okay

So the problem isn't that it's too easy to confirm either the Ret or the Necro. The problem is that there is no suitable Mafia role in that Invest result. In order to keep the Invest results balanced, there should ideally be Town/Mafia/(Non-Mafia), where the Mafia can claim the Town role in its result and not be instantly disproved. The Necro/Ret result has no way to work in a Mafia role without screwing it over. This means that this result is confirmed non-Mafia, and the moment the single NE is found (which can be early if it is a Witch) the Ret is still confirmed Town.

This is pretty much my only problem with this role.


What if we fit in Disguiser (obviously considering after it receives the buff it needs, with the post-poned Last Wills).

If this was the case, Disguiser has more difficult Investigation result, but due to its nature, if it stays alive, it can dissapear again by disguising. ¨
It could work, to have Retri/Disguiser/Necro in this suggestion. Its not perfect, sure, but given how dodgy Disg can be, I dont see why not (again, talking about fixed Disguiser, not that current vanilla weakling).
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:02 pm

Retri is still not ckaimspace at all tbh, but I'd be more than okay with Retri/Necro/Disg for balance reasons, regarding all three roles in the result and the Investigator.

So yes, make that it.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby jtsfour » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:01 pm

Wow i had the same idea came to forums to post it /support XD
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