Survivor Rework

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Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:10 pm

So, we can all agree that Survivor is a powerful kingmaker that requires little effort. However, we can't just remove the role - so this is my suggestion.

Instead of putting on a vest, the Survivor can hide out at someone's house each night. If he is attacked his target will die instead, but if his target is attacked, he will die instead. Neither the Survivor nor his target for that night can be protected by a Doctor. The Survivor is immune to roleblocks and controls. He cannot pick the same target consecutively. He has one bulletproof vest. If jailed and not executed, the Survivor will target the Jailor.

NOW THEN: How does this help the kingmaker situation?

The coup de grace of the role is that Survivor may no longer vote when it comes down to three players.

So the ingame rolecard would look something like this:

Role: Survivor

Alignment: Neutral (Benign)

Abilities: Hide out at someone's house each night.

Attributes: If your target is attacked, you will die instead, and vice versa.
Neither of you can be protected by a Doctor.
When there are three players left, you may not vote.
You may not target the same person on consecutive nights.

Goal: Live to see the end of the game.

You win with everyone so long as you live.
Last edited by Kirize12 on Mon May 23, 2016 6:00 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby JazzMusicStops » Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:47 pm

ooooh, me likey
/support
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Raetah » Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:57 pm

There is no need to fix what is no broken.
Whether you like it or not:
Survivor has a very simple and effective design to acomplish his goal.

And yes, it is a powerful role, I particulally enjoy when players are hopeless against my decissions, specially when they can attack me, since I will use a bulletproof, and I will continue to torture them the next day. This is the only way I actually have fun with the role, and if you manage to reach that part of the game alive with the number of bulletproof to do that, you deserve that fun.

And yes there are a lot of players that win as Survivor with a very lazy strategy.

In this case, the problem is not Survivor, the problem is how most of the players react towards the Survivor, if everyone gives the consent to Survivors of revealing in early game or just straight out Day 1. Then of course, Survivors are more than likely going to win the game for free.

You want to ruin an entire role just because the players are not taking the time to punish Survivors for claiming his role and expect to win by doing nothing.

And I say ruin, because you want to turn the role in to a transporter-like role with some weird effects.
In this case, the most simple design wins.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:01 pm

The problem is Survivor. It's a kingmaker that requires little to no effort. It can literally pick a winner who doesn't deserve it whatsoever.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Raetah » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:08 pm

If they didn't conviced the Survivor to join his side, then they don't deserve to win.
That's how Survivor works after all.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby TrueGent » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:15 pm

Raetah wrote:If they didn't conviced the Survivor to join his side, then they don't deserve to win.
That's how Survivor works after all.

lol
That's why we want to change it
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Raetah » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:33 pm

Nah, you want to change it because players don't know how to adapt and to a role with properly countermeasures to negative effects of that role.
Survivor only gets that power if the other players in the game allow that to happen.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby TrueGent » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:35 pm

Survivor shouldn't have that power to begin with.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Robocog » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:55 pm

I like this. This would both add more depth to playing Survivor and add more skill required to win. The voting thing might be good as well, but it also might break the Kingmaker scenarios even more, but either way, I'd be okay with this change to Survivor.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Raetah » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:02 pm

And why not exactly?

Town starts with the power of Majority along with many strongh roles
Mafia starts knowing their allies and their roles.

Ignoring the rest of neutrals that function differently, Survivor has barely power of decission during most part of the game, however the each day your presence becomes slowly a biggest threat and eventually you may become able to choose who wins with you.

I don't see anything wrong in that, after all is the only significant thing that the role can do.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:07 pm

Robocog wrote:I like this. This would both add more depth to playing Survivor and add more skill required to win. The voting thing might be good as well, but it also might break the Kingmaker scenarios even more, but either way, I'd be okay with this change to Survivor.

Breaking the kingmaker scenario is a good thing.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Robocog » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:23 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
Robocog wrote:I like this. This would both add more depth to playing Survivor and add more skill required to win. The voting thing might be good as well, but it also might break the Kingmaker scenarios even more, but either way, I'd be okay with this change to Survivor.

Breaking the kingmaker scenario is a good thing.



I am aware of this, I am only saying, I at least like the night ability, it is a good change from its pretty much auto win vest immunity. That is all.
Even if you are Veteran, don't piss off a WereWolf.



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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby yonks012 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:24 pm

As long as the bonus vote doesn't count on Mayor, im down
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:28 pm

yonks012 wrote:As long as the bonus vote doesn't count on Mayor, im down

Ya, I'm gonna set it so you can't target a revealed Mayo.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby FireEmblem7 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:13 pm

The survivor will still be a kingmaker, as he can choose who to give his vote to. It also makes it much harder to win as a survivor, and it's pretty difficult already.

No support whatsoever
If a survivor is killed, do they become an oxymoron? A dead survivor?

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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:16 pm

FireEmblem7 wrote:The survivor will still be a kingmaker, as he can choose who to give his vote to. It also makes it much harder to win as a survivor, and it's pretty difficult already.

No support whatsoever

Survivor's not a difficult role to play. :roll:
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby FireEmblem7 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:22 pm

Survivor's not a difficult role to play. :roll:


Not difficult to play, but it does have a lower win rate than many roles.
If a survivor is killed, do they become an oxymoron? A dead survivor?

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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:40 pm

FireEmblem7 wrote:
Survivor's not a difficult role to play. :roll:


Not difficult to play, but it does have a lower win rate than many roles.

It has the second-highest win rate in the game, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby ViridianCataya » Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:29 pm

Support afff

I like this one a lot, but I don't know about the whole "can't vote" thing.

I don't think Survivor can avoid becoming a kingmaker, however this rework makes it both harder and easier to win as Survivor. Which is why this is a great idea.
Jester is basically the best role.

Tbh if it has more than 2 pages then I don't click it.
custom is terrible
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby kookeekwisp » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:35 pm

We don't need 2 transporters, let alone one that you're forced to use & prevents doctors from healing you.
Not only did you remove immunity, but you made them even MORE useless than any other role in the game.

The point of "Survivor" is to survive, not die for other people. That's BG's job.

When people said they wanted a nerf, they didn't mean "make even harder to win with than the Witch"

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Kirize wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:Dont single out Arso cause it kills slower!
I didnt know you could contradict yourself in one sentence
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:37 pm

kookeekwisp wrote:We don't need 2 transporters, let alone one that you're forced to use & prevents doctors from healing you.
Not only did you remove immunity, but you made them even MORE useless than any other role in the game.

The point of "Survivor" is to survive, not die for other people. That's BG's job.

When people said they wanted a nerf, they didn't mean "make even harder to win with than the Witch"

Taking skill to play doesn't mean its bad.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Killthestory » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:34 pm

ok since my last post saying this was shitty got deleted im going to have to type a reason. boring

anyway this role still is useless to the game and causes kingmakers.

shitty
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:54 pm

So I'm bumping this.

I've removed the fact that you can't vote and who you target will get a second vote, and now, when there are three players you may not vote.

Also I've removed the part where you can't target a revealed Mayor. I added that because they get your vote in the old version, however this new version does not need it.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby oliy » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:05 pm

GF vs SK?
2v2?
3v3?
Where's the limits?
We can make it more scum sided and make it so the harder-to-win roles win in these scenarios, so order is town<Mafia<SK<Arsonist<Werewolf

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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:15 pm

oliy wrote:GF vs SK?
2v2?
3v3?
Where's the limits?
We can make it more scum sided and make it so the harder-to-win roles win in these scenarios, so order is town<Mafia<SK<Arsonist<Werewolf

GFvSK + Survivor = 3 players, where Survivor cannot vote. SK and Survivor win.
2v2 is not a problem. Survivor and town lynch Mafia, Mafia kills town, and we're back at 1v1 + Survivor. Mafia wins.
See above.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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