Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Old Role Ideas

What do you think?

Poll ended at Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:36 pm

I like this idea.
25
33%
Change it to Mafia Deception.
24
32%
It needs to some changes (post below).
5
7%
I don't like this idea.
22
29%
 
Total votes : 76

Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby SpyderCanopus » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:13 am

Role Name:
- Burglar

Card Image:
http://i.imgur.com/hHlt4YE.jpg?1

Role Alignment:
- Neutral Evil

Attributes:
- Can steal three wills. Can not create your own will. Can not edit stolen wills.

Abilities:
- Choose a person and steal their will at night.
- You may only steal 3 wills.
- Your target's will is erased upon theft.
- Your target can not create a new will.
- Can only steal wills from Town roles.

Goal:
- Manipulate the town into losing.

Wins with:
- Non-town

Special Attributes:
- Detection Immunity
- Control Immunity

Investigative Results:
- Investigator: Your target works with documents. They could be a Framer, Forger or Burglar!
- Sheriff: Not suspicious.

Additional Information (comments):
- Background: You are a slippery thief who is fixated on reading private documents.
- Summary: An evil thief who steals documents.

Notes:
- You can not steal an empty will.
- You can only steal the will of town members.
- If you attempt to steal an empty or non-town member's will, it will say, "Could not find a document to steal!"
- You may copy to clipboard but not edit or erase stolen wills.
- Evil targets will know someone tried to steal their will.
- Stolen wills are returned upon death.

Strategy:
Burglar attempts to manipulate the town by stealing their information and using it against them. You are a degenerate and should side with evil roles to achieve victory. If you can identify the other evil roles, you should share your role and any information you get from burglaries.

If someone doesn't claim to have been a target of burglary, they are likely evil and you may want to befriend them.

If you can not find a document to steal, it doesn't necessarily mean they are an evil role. Some town roles don't have much use of wills, such as Vigilante.
Last edited by SpyderCanopus on Sun May 08, 2016 10:52 pm, edited 14 times in total.
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Re: Role Idea: Burglar

Postby oliy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:10 am

Wills aren't even that needed. Just reveal the next day, tell a Medium what you did, tell a confirmed town, or just pointlessly out your role.
This in comparison to Witch is weak.

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Re: Role Idea: Burglar

Postby SpyderCanopus » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:28 am

oliy wrote:Wills aren't even that needed. Just reveal the next day, tell a Medium what you did, tell a confirmed town, or just pointlessly out your role.
This in comparison to Witch is weak.


I don't think you read it completely. This would be a fun role. Trying to find out who is evil and helping them without getting caught.

It would add a new dynamic to the game.
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Re: Role Idea: Burglar

Postby oliy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:39 am

SpyderCanopus wrote:
oliy wrote:Wills aren't even that needed. Just reveal the next day, tell a Medium what you did, tell a confirmed town, or just pointlessly out your role.
This in comparison to Witch is weak.


I don't think you read it completely. This would be a fun role. Trying to find out who is evil and helping them without getting caught.

It would add a new dynamic to the game.

Like Witch, where you use role power instead?
I however missed the immunity thing.
That still wouldn't help it work however.
This role is more abstract, whereas Witch is straight up power.

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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby SpyderCanopus » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:40 am

You have the power of information before anyone else. And if you can identify and assist your evil friends, you're protected and very powerful.

Plus it cripples town members who can't share or use their will anymore.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby oliy » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:43 am

SpyderCanopus wrote:You have the power of information before anyone else. And if you can identify and assist your evil friends, you're protected and very powerful.

How so?
Jailor can get this info.
Investigatives can get this info.

As for identifying buddies, you can identify them, but how will you relay info without being sure there's no spy? It would be too late in the game for it.

The Investigator results are pretty bad though. 3 scum in one slot, even if it's Framer.

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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby SpyderCanopus » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:51 am

oliy wrote:How so?
Jailor can get this info.
Investigatives can get this info.

As for identifying buddies, you can identify them, but how will you relay info without being sure there's no spy? It would be too late in the game for it.


If the spy dies, then you can whisper. Or if a Consigliere identifies you, they can go by your vote. It's a sneaky role idea.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby SpyderCanopus » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:21 am

spanner wrote:this is cool spyder.

but what if people delete their wills at night and repaste them in the morning to counter it. do u think town losing the information is good payoff


Thanks! I think it would be a lot of fun.

If they delete their will at night, they risk dying and town can't see the information.

It could also be programmed to steal the will regardless of it it's deleted. Just like some roles don't save changes made at night.

Town would have the possibility of losing just a few wills, how many might have to be adjusted.

Another option is to reveal the stolen wills if the Burglar is killed.

I hope this idea makes it to the test environment.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby shapesifter13 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:35 pm

It is an interesting idea in theory, but I it would probably end up just being a neutral Forger for if his target dies that night. People already will use notepad to take notes and such, so I would guess people would just start keeping a copy of thier will in Notepad to avoid not having a will.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby sylwia212 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:48 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:people would just start keeping a copy of thier will in Notepad to avoid not having a will.



I would so do this right away. However, I do agree it is an interesting idea.
Meh, too much effort.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby kookeekwisp » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:01 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:It is an interesting idea in theory, but I it would probably end up just being a neutral Forger for if his target dies that night. People already will use notepad to take notes and such, so I would guess people would just start keeping a copy of thier will in Notepad to avoid not having a will.

What if there's no medium or ret?
You'd be risking keeping tons of information from the town.

Notepad doesn't give information when you're dead
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby mmss5joker » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:52 pm

This basically reminds me of a Forger and Janitor combination divided by 456. It seems too weak.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby SpyderCanopus » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:58 pm

On the stand: "Post your will or die." "I can't, I got burgled!".

This adds a whole new dynamic to the game.

If anyone has ideas to optimize the role, please post them. I really think this could make the game more interesting as a Neutral Evil role.

Please post if you agree and any optimizations to the role you might have.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby ft029 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:35 am

Sheriff finds a burglar. Your target is not suspicious.

seems legit
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby JazzMusicStops » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:24 am

I honestly don't see this working
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby Blackajack » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:46 am

The burglar as it currently stands is not strong enough to see play in Town of Salem.

While it is an interesting yet simple concept, it does not hold enough power within the town to change anything. Removing a will can be annoying, yes, but information can still be gained by the town even with a will removed. It doesn't take a will to prove yourself as your role.

I think that when you steal a will, you could watch them in a similar vein to a lookout. Then you could put it with the lookout/bodyguard/jailor investigation trait, and be able to prove yourself at the same time.

To counter this investigation result, I think it should be revealed as a member of the mafia to the sheriff. Just the mafia, because while the burglar is up to no good, the sheriff knows he's evil but not in what regard. Plus it makes some sick mind plays at the same time and co-operation with the mafia.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby SpyderCanopus » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:43 am

What if it was made Mafia Support instead of Neutral Evil?
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby JazzMusicStops » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:51 am

SpyderCanopus wrote:What if it was made Mafia Support instead of Neutral Evil?

It would certainly be more powerful
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby CreeperJoe » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:23 pm

The concept of blocking someone from using their wills is a powerful tool. It's what Janitor makes so feared. All your investigation results are wiped away to never be found out, alongside your role.

I personally like the premise, it's got most things covered such as interactions with other roles. However, I presume that failing to steal a will does not take a charge? You haven't addressed this and it may be game changing if a charge is taken upon a fail.
One thing that bothers me is the alignment. A Neutral Evil that relies on others to win is a very weird concept and one that isn't seen before (for a good reason). I'd rather see it with the Mafia, because that will be the main faction you will be co-operating with. Maybe you can join in with a Neutral Killer at times, but then again, they'll be very cautious until it's confirmed that there cannot be a Spy left alive. It's the reason why many of the Neutral Evil roles that rely on communication fail; the Spy will just drag them to the stand because they can prove themselves reliably. The mere existence of the Spy deters it, because there is no way of knowing that there is a Spy without one claiming or having an investigative find out.
If the Burglar is a NE then he would be horribly underpowered. Mafia Deception however, he could make wonder as a permanent Forger. Yet, I feel like the two are too similar in terms of purpose.

I feel like Burglar is o.k as a Mafia Deception and underpowered as NE.
Don't got anything else to mention since the dynamic is creative and do-able.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby SpyderCanopus » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:37 pm

I added a poll. Please vote!
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:20 am

I'd like this role to be Mafia support.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby HookshotHotshot » Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:35 pm

I think I like this role more as Neutral Evil, provided that this was the only role added at one time. I think that adding this as Mafia Support would make the mafia almost too powerful, because now, not only can janitor clean the will, but if the burglar was added, the person couldn't add to their will either. If there was something powerful added to the town (that was NOT a direct counter to this role), I think it could work as a mafia deception.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby Ymirr » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:15 pm

CreeperJoe wrote:The concept of blocking someone from using their wills is a powerful tool. It's what Janitor makes so feared. All your investigation results are wiped away to never be found out, alongside your role.

I personally like the premise, it's got most things covered such as interactions with other roles. However, I presume that failing to steal a will does not take a charge? You haven't addressed this and it may be game changing if a charge is taken upon a fail.
One thing that bothers me is the alignment. A Neutral Evil that relies on others to win is a very weird concept and one that isn't seen before (for a good reason). I'd rather see it with the Mafia, because that will be the main faction you will be co-operating with. Maybe you can join in with a Neutral Killer at times, but then again, they'll be very cautious until it's confirmed that there cannot be a Spy left alive. It's the reason why many of the Neutral Evil roles that rely on communication fail; the Spy will just drag them to the stand because they can prove themselves reliably. The mere existence of the Spy deters it, because there is no way of knowing that there is a Spy without one claiming or having an investigative find out.
If the Burglar is a NE then he would be horribly underpowered. Mafia Deception however, he could make wonder as a permanent Forger. Yet, I feel like the two are too similar in terms of purpose.

I feel like Burglar is o.k as a Mafia Deception and underpowered as NE.
Don't got anything else to mention since the dynamic is creative and do-able.


Of course it has been seen before. This role is in the same category as witch (NE), and shares the same win condition. How is this a weird concept?

I do agree it is underpowered however, witches are probably better.
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby SpyderCanopus » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:37 pm

I really appreciate this making it to the test server. I am hopeful this dynamic is added to the game. It could really mix it up!
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Re: Burglar (Neutral Evil)

Postby oliy » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:00 pm

Here's how it went in the TG: (Updating)
Game 1 - Almost got lynched D2 via Scumread. Godfather died to Veteran and lost. Game was Gf, Burglar, 3 RT, TI, and TP.
Game 2 - No Burglar present, Cats won with 3 Cats, 1 Dog, 1 Vet
Game 3 - No Burglar present, Town won with 1 veteran, 1 citizen, 1 Godfather
Game 4 - ^ but Mafia won
Game 5 - Mafia won in 2 day 1-shot Vet vs GF

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