Balanced Disguiser: #RunItBack

Old Role Ideas

Should this be added into a game? (Optionally, please explain your decision)

Yes!
299
91%
No.
16
5%
Disguiser is okay as is.
15
5%
 
Total votes : 330

Balanced Disguiser: #RunItBack

Postby Mroz4k » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:44 pm

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So, I think we can all agree that Disguiser is one of the weakest Mafia roles out there, even after its overhaul. They no longer are entirely dependent on other roles, which is good, but their actual usage is still very limited. This fix was originally designed to change the old Disguiser role, so consider that while reading through it.
This fix is simple, but can be a bit confusing, so I after explaining it, I will also explain it on an example.


    Disguiser has 3 disguises:
  • On first disguise, the Disguiser´s Last Will is displayed.
  • On second disguise, the first victim´s Last Will is displayed.
  • On third disguise, the second victim´s Last Will is displayed.
  • Only if Disguiser dies, the third victim´s Last Will is displayed, instead of the Disguiser´s original Last Will (that one was displayed during first disguise)
In ideal conditions, the third victim´s Last Will will never be displayed. However, should the Disguiser be killed, the third Last Will should be displayed.
Disguiser does NOT see the Last Wills of his disguised targets beforehand, nor can he adjust them in any way. The only way would be to clean or forge the next disguise kill.


Outcome (compared to the old Disguiser):
  • Disguiser is now independent on help of other Mafia roles.
  • Reward for three cosequent disguises means the last Last Will will not be displayed. Considering this is the latest in game, this will probably contains the most information.
  • The town is aware there is a Disguiser (the roles in Last wills will not fit, but the names of victims will match the names of the dead person so there is no way to instantly confirm
    a Disguiser.
  • Adds new strategies into the game - if a Disguiser sees his Victim´s role was Investigator, he may decide not to disguise any further, in order to not release the Last Will of the Investigator.
  • This consequently buffs Forger as well - it is uncertain whether there is a Forger or a Disguiser in the game. This uncertainty works in favour of Mafia.
  • If Janitor cleans the disguised target, only the Will that would have othervise be displayed on this target would be removed. This means that if first target is cleaned, the Disguiser´s original Last Will is removed. If the Disguiser disguises again (and Janitor doesnt clean this time), the Last Will of first target is displayed even though the original target was cleaned.


Example:

Lets have a game, where:
John Proctor (you) is Disguiser
Giles Corey is Sheriff
Betty Paris is Escort
Samuel Sewall is Investigator


N1: The first disguise
You are a Disguiser, named John Proctor.
Mafia attacks Giles Corey (who is a Sheriff, but you dont know that yet). You choose to disguise as Giles Corey.

John Proctor was killed by member of Mafia last night. His role was Sheriff. We found a Last Will.
Last Will wrote:John Proctor

I was forged, lololol

(now, you might ask yourself - how is that possible? There is no Forger in this example... because there actually isnt! This Will was written by you, the Disguiser, to make it look like it was Forged... by a begginer Forger. Its simply a ruse - however, this is YOUR, the Disguiser´s Last Will.)
The Last Will displayed on John Proctor´s dead body was your Last Will, the John Proctor´s.

The current list is:
Giles Corey (you) is Disguiser
Betty Paris is Escort
Samuel Sewall is Investigator
Graveyard:
John Proctor was Sheriff, now killed

N2: the second disguise
Now, you are disguised as Giles Corey. Mafia attacks Betty Paris. You decided to disguise.

Giles Corey was killed by member of Mafia last night. His role was Escort. We found a Last Will.
Last Will wrote:Giles Corey the Sheriff

N1 Potatolover -

This time, the Last Will of the first victim was posted instead. The Second last Will is saved, and Disguiser cannot review it, or even edit it. It WILL be displayed if Disguiser disguises for the third time, or is killed meanwhile.

The current list is:
Betty Paris (you) is Disguiser
Samuel Sewall is Investigator
Graveyard:
John Proctor was Sheriff, now killed
Giles Corey was Escort, now killed

N3: the third disguise:
Mafia attacks Samuel Sewall (the Investigator). You (Betty Paris the Disguiser) will decide to disguise.

Betty Paris was killed by a member of Mafia last night. She was an Investigator. We found a Last Will:
Last Will wrote:Betty Paris the Escort

N1 Donald Trump
N2 Deleter

Now, if Disguiser lives till the end of the game, the actual Investigator´s Last Will is never going to be displayed. However, should the Disguiser die, the Last Will of the Retributionist will be displayed, instead of Disguiser´s personal Last Will.

The current list is:
Samuel Sewall (you) is Disguiser
Graveyard:
John Proctor was Sheriff, now killed
Giles Corey was Escort, now killed
Betty Paris is Investigator, now killed

N4: the Disguiser´s death:
On fourth night, the Samuel Sewall the Disguiser (you) is jailed. Despite the valiant effort, Jailor executes you.

Samuel Sewall was killed last night. He was executed by the Jailor. He was a Disguiser. We found a Last Will:
Last Will wrote:Samuel Sewall, Investigator

N1 Giles Corey - Sheriff/Executioner/Retributionist
N2 Betty Paris - Escort/Consort
N3 Potatolover - Mayor/Godfather



Lets presume Potatolover was a Godfather - now if Disguiser never died, the last Last Will would have never been shown. The Godfather would slip away. But, because Disguiser has no control over the Last Wills he overrides, and cant even read them, when he is killed the Last Will of his last Disguised target is displayed. That includes all the incrimidating information it might posses.

Graveyard:
John Proctor was Sheriff, now killed
Giles Corey was Escort, now killed
Betty Paris is Investigator, now killed
Samuel Sewall (you) is Disguiser, now killed.

Lets summarize the example:

Initial Rolelist:
John Proctor (you) is Disguiser
Giles Corey is Sheriff
Betty Paris is Escort
Samuel Sewall is Investigator

Final graveyard:
John Proctor was Sheriff, now killed
Giles Corey was Escort, now killed
Betty Paris is Investigator, now killed
Samuel Sewall (you) is Disguiser, now killed.

Rolelists:
N1: Mafia kill: Giles Corey the Sheriff. Last Will of: John Proctor, the Disguiser. Dead identity: John Proctor the Sheriff.
Spoiler:
Last Will wrote:John Proctor

I was forged, lololol

N2: Mafia kill: Betty Paris the Escort. Last Will of: Giles Corey, the Sheriff. Dead identity: Giles Corey the Escort.
Spoiler:
Last Will wrote:Giles Corey the Sheriff

N1 Potatolover -

N3: Mafia kill: Samuel Sewall the Investigator. Last Will of: Betty Paris, the Escort. Dead identity: Betty Paris the Investigator.
Spoiler:
Last Will wrote:Betty Paris the Escort

N1 Donald Trump
N2 Deleter

N4: Mafia kill: irrelevant. Jailor kill: Samuel Sewall, the Disguiser. Last Will of: Samuel Sewall, the Investigator. Dead identity: Samuel Sewall the Disguiser.
Spoiler:
Last Will wrote:Samuel Sewall, Investigator

N1 Giles Corey - Sheriff/Executioner/Retributionist
N2 Betty Paris - Escort/Consort
N3 Potatolover - Mayor/Godfather



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is simple yet elegant solution that makes Disguiser a better role, does not make it a worse/better copy of Janitor/Forger, and allows Disguiser to use his abilities on his own.
All Feedback is encouraged.


Important questions/clarification:
KirbyRider1337 wrote:What happens if the disguised target is cleaned/forged?

Cleaning a disguised target will simply remove the Last Will that would have othervise be displayed. This means that on first disguised target, it would remove the Disguiser´s original Last Will, on second disguised target, it would remove the first disguised target´s Last Will, etc.
Forging works the same.
Last edited by Mroz4k on Sat May 06, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 13 times in total.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby kookeekwisp » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:47 pm

This is actually a good idea! i like the concept a lot!

(if giles' will is replaced with john's will, why does john's will say "Giles the sheriff"?)
Favorite roles: Framer Survivor Trapper VampireHunter Consigliere Mafioso Escort Lookout Mayor Arsonist Disguiser Veteran Bodyguard Plaguebearer Medusa Blackmailer Executioner Doctor Crusader Vigilante Vampire PotionMaster Poisoner Transporter Jester Jailor Consort Ambusher Werewolf SerialKiller Hypnotist CovenLeader Pirate Godfather Sheriff Forger ??? Retributionist Amnesiac Investigator Necromancer Spy GuardianAngel Tracker Psychic HexMaster.

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kookeekwisp wrote:Dont single out Arso cause it kills slower!
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:49 pm

This makes sense.

I like it.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:54 pm

This is definitely interesting.
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby mrbones45 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:02 pm

kookeekwisp wrote:This is actually a good idea! i like the concept a lot!

(if giles' will is replaced with john's will, why does john's will say "Giles the sheriff"?)

I think he messed it up
Btw i LOVE this idea i love disguiser ALOT but hes a weak role
So plz everyone support this!
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby KirbyRider1337 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:17 pm

kookeekwisp wrote:This is actually a good idea! i like the concept a lot!

(if giles' will is replaced with john's will, why does john's will say "Giles the sheriff"?)

"John" was actually Giles to start.
I like these roles:
Town: BodyGuard, Investigator, Jailor, Mayor, Spy
Mafia: Consigliere, Janitor, Mafioso
Neutral: Arsonist, Jester, Serial Killer
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:34 pm

The more I think about this the more genius it seems.

/fullsupport
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby KirbyRider1337 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:30 pm

Also, if a Janitor and a Disguiser both visit a dying target (As in, basically the typical conditions for today's Disguiser), and the Disguiser disguised beforehand, will the will of the previous disguised target get wiped, or will the will that applies to the next Disguised target (Or the Disguiser himself, if a Jailor or SK or something kills him) be wiped? I'm gonna assume the will that gets planted on the current disguised target gets wiped instead. Also, I'm thinking the "Last Will" button should get removed when you successfully disguise.

Also, let's say the person you first disguise as gets resurrected by a Retributionist and then killed. What happens to their will? Will it reset?
I like these roles:
Town: BodyGuard, Investigator, Jailor, Mayor, Spy
Mafia: Consigliere, Janitor, Mafioso
Neutral: Arsonist, Jester, Serial Killer
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby Mroz4k » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:45 am

KirbyRider1337 wrote:Also, if a Janitor and a Disguiser both visit a dying target (As in, basically the typical conditions for today's Disguiser), and the Disguiser disguised beforehand, will the will of the previous disguised target get wiped, or will the will that applies to the next Disguised target (Or the Disguiser himself, if a Jailor or SK or something kills him) be wiped? I'm gonna assume the will that gets planted on the current disguised target gets wiped instead. Also, I'm thinking the "Last Will" button should get removed when you successfully disguise.

Also, let's say the person you first disguise as gets resurrected by a Retributionist and then killed. What happens to their will? Will it reset?


I thought about that a lot.

Well, the Disguiser basically "moves" the will a one Will backwards, and replaces the first Will with his own.
HOWEVER
The "current" will has to be cleaned or Forged. If we "cleaned" the original will of the target, people would immidiatedly know there is a Disguiser who disguised, as well as Janitor.
(this basically means its pointless to clean the first disguised target unless you REALLY want to hide their Role as well. Because you will essentially clean the Disguiser´s private Last Will. Same goes for forging (in this case, its completedly useless to forge first disguised target, considering Disguiser can write whatever he wants in his Last Will and it will be showed up as that anyways).
(its true that a smart Disguiser would simply leave his will empty when disguising for the first time as a cleaned target, which would create the mirage of a "cleaned will" because it wouldnt display any will at all... but I have a feeling this would make it all a little bit too powerful, to tell the truth... so I think it should be left as "the current Last Will" is cleaned. Even this posses a lot of uses by Mafia. However, in case the Disguiser is killed, the whole deception is revealed. And thats a good thing! This suggestion buffs Disguiser a lot, making it the true "Deception" class, so there needs to be some demerits to these new merits.)

Lets return to our example:
First disguise:
Mafia attacks Giles Corey the Sheriff. Janitor cleans and John Proctor the Disguiser disguises as Giles Corey the Sheriff, then the outcome would be:

John Proctor was killed by Mafia last night. His role was "cleaned". We could not find the Last Will.

Second disguise:
Mafia attacks Betty Paris the Escort. Janitor is roleblocked or something, and does not clean. Giles Corey the Disguiser disguises as Betty Paris the Escort, then the outcome would be:

Giles Corey was killed by Mafia last night. His role was Escort. We found the Last Will.
Last Will wrote:Giles Corey the Sheriff

N1 Potatolover -

... which was the original Last Will of the cleaned Sheriff.

Now this might work both in advantage of Mafia or against them - the Town may deduce that the cleaned target was Sheriff. Which is why I would personally reccomend that Disguiser + Janitor work in a way that first disguised target is not cleaned, but the second and third are - that way there is no way to confirm a Disguiser, unless there is a Medium in game. However, if the second disguised target is not cleaned and the first one is, if town suspected there is a Janitor and Disguiser, it would hint that the first cleaned target was Sheriff. HOWEVER... if there actually is NOT a Disguiser... but Forger, who just forged the second will and the Janitor purposedly did not clean, a Forged will like that can decieve the Town into thinking there is a Disguiser in place, and that the cleaned person was Sheriff... when in fact, the cleaned person was Jailor or some other role, completedly different from the previous one.

Therefore... this suggestion does not only make Disguiser a useful role in Mafia, it also buffs Janitor and most notably Forger - just by simply being in game, Janitor and Forger can pretend there is a Disguiser even though there isnt one, and the Disguiser can pretend that there is a Forger in game, when there is not one...

This increases the number of Mafia strategies by a good amount.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby theo07 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:35 am

GJ Mroz4k.
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby KirbyRider1337 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:07 pm

Mroz4k wrote:
KirbyRider1337 wrote:Also, if a Janitor and a Disguiser both visit a dying target (As in, basically the typical conditions for today's Disguiser), and the Disguiser disguised beforehand, will the will of the previous disguised target get wiped, or will the will that applies to the next Disguised target (Or the Disguiser himself, if a Jailor or SK or something kills him) be wiped? I'm gonna assume the will that gets planted on the current disguised target gets wiped instead. Also, I'm thinking the "Last Will" button should get removed when you successfully disguise.

Also, let's say the person you first disguise as gets resurrected by a Retributionist and then killed. What happens to their will? Will it reset?


I thought about that a lot.

Well, the Disguiser basically "moves" the will a one Will backwards, and replaces the first Will with his own.
HOWEVER
The "current" will has to be cleaned or Forged. If we "cleaned" the original will of the target, people would immidiatedly know there is a Disguiser who disguised, as well as Janitor.
(this basically means its pointless to clean the first disguised target unless you REALLY want to hide their Role as well. Because you will essentially clean the Disguiser´s private Last Will. Same goes for forging (in this case, its completedly useless to forge first disguised target, considering Disguiser can write whatever he wants in his Last Will and it will be showed up as that anyways).
(its true that a smart Disguiser would simply leave his will empty when disguising for the first time as a cleaned target, which would create the mirage of a "cleaned will" because it wouldnt display any will at all... but I have a feeling this would make it all a little bit too powerful, to tell the truth... so I think it should be left as "the current Last Will" is cleaned. Even this posses a lot of uses by Mafia. However, in case the Disguiser is killed, the whole deception is revealed. And thats a good thing! This suggestion buffs Disguiser a lot, making it the true "Deception" class, so there needs to be some demerits to these new merits.)

Lets return to our example:
First disguise:
Mafia attacks Giles Corey the Sheriff. Janitor cleans and John Proctor the Disguiser disguises as Giles Corey the Sheriff, then the outcome would be:

John Proctor was killed by Mafia last night. His role was "cleaned". We could not find the Last Will.

Second disguise:
Mafia attacks Betty Paris the Escort. Janitor is roleblocked or something, and does not clean. Giles Corey the Disguiser disguises as Betty Paris the Escort, then the outcome would be:

Giles Corey was killed by Mafia last night. His role was Escort. We found the Last Will.
Last Will wrote:Giles Corey the Sheriff

N1 Potatolover -

... which was the original Last Will of the cleaned Sheriff.

Now this might work both in advantage of Mafia or against them - the Town may deduce that the cleaned target was Sheriff. Which is why I would personally reccomend that Disguiser + Janitor work in a way that first disguised target is not cleaned, but the second and third are - that way there is no way to confirm a Disguiser, unless there is a Medium in game. However, if the second disguised target is not cleaned and the first one is, if town suspected there is a Janitor and Disguiser, it would hint that the first cleaned target was Sheriff. HOWEVER... if there actually is NOT a Disguiser... but Forger, who just forged the second will and the Janitor purposedly did not clean, a Forged will like that can decieve the Town into thinking there is a Disguiser in place, and that the cleaned person was Sheriff... when in fact, the cleaned person was Jailor or some other role, completedly different from the previous one.

Therefore... this suggestion does not only make Disguiser a useful role in Mafia, it also buffs Janitor and most notably Forger - just by simply being in game, Janitor and Forger can pretend there is a Disguiser even though there isnt one, and the Disguiser can pretend that there is a Forger in game, when there is not one...

This increases the number of Mafia strategies by a good amount.

Thanks for answering my question, but what about the Resurrection/Will thingy?
I like these roles:
Town: BodyGuard, Investigator, Jailor, Mayor, Spy
Mafia: Consigliere, Janitor, Mafioso
Neutral: Arsonist, Jester, Serial Killer
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby Mroz4k » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:08 am

KirbyRider1337 wrote:Thanks for answering my question, but what about the Resurrection/Will thingy?


Asking more really good questions, I see. :D +1 point in my personal book.

To be honest, I never considered what would happen if Retributionist ressurected a disguised target with this change in-place. I guess it would work the same way it does now - the ressurected Townie would say who they were originally, and their Last Will will not be re-written - for example, if John Proctor (originally the Giles Corey the Sheriff) was ressurected, inside of his Last Will it would still say:
Last Will wrote:Giles Corey the Sheriff

N1 Potatolover -

Or something else, whatever he wrote down in his Last Will during the time he was dead (when observing the game from dead chat, I sometimes write in my Last will my suspections etc. and then use it to copy-paste it later on should I get ressurected/there is a Medium in game.
Ressurected disguised Town would be able to spoil Disguiser´s cover. This makes Disguiser more strategical role - you need to know when there is a big risk of your disguised target getting ressed (Jailor, for example) and when you should disguise once again, right away. Othervise, his cover might be blown right away).

Basically imagine a current vanilla Disguiser getting away with his disguising (for example thanks to Forger), but Retributionist ressurecting the disguised target and this target then calling out the Disguiser and getting him hung. Same scenario would apply here.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby murat1996 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:35 am

YEs, YES WE DEFINITELY NEED THIS CHANGE FOR DISGUISER!!!

Or at least a good balance for the poor Disguiser :)

Good job Mroz4k!

You have my support!
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby sarysa » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:23 pm

If not this, the Disguiser just needs _something_. It's so hard to explain to new players that they shouldn't disguise. When I'm mafioso I'll actually prevent them from disguising by swapping kill targets regularly and they think I'm trolling them and sometimes even quit. They don't realize I'm actually saving them from an embarrassing easy lynch. Other times they'll quit out of boredom, not realizing the importance of their voting power.

Yeah, us veteran players understand where I'm coming from, but that's really the problem. We've all gotten comfortable to the fact that Disguiser is a broken role which is kind of a messed up mindset.

Even with self-sufficiency, spies, mediums, and resurrected players will still be able to catch the disguiser. Looking at your description so will a smart Jailor or Vigilante who can read sudden behavioral changes.
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Least favorite: Framer, Disguiser, Jester
Most broken IMO:
Jester - Revert the 2.3.0 patch, give a swiss army knife of nighttime annoyance (ala Potion Master) to aid in fooling the town. Just some kind of agency.
Psychic - Game-breaking enough that I made a thread about it.

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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby Mroz4k » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:31 pm

sarysa wrote:If not this, the Disguiser just needs _something_. It's so hard to explain to new players that they shouldn't disguise. When I'm mafioso I'll actually prevent them from disguising by swapping kill targets regularly and they think I'm trolling them and sometimes even quit. They don't realize I'm actually saving them from an embarrassing easy lynch. Other times they'll quit out of boredom, not realizing the importance of their voting power.

Yeah, us veteran players understand where I'm coming from, but that's really the problem. We've all gotten comfortable to the fact that Disguiser is a broken role which is kind of a messed up mindset.

Even with self-sufficiency, spies, mediums, and resurrected players will still be able to catch the disguiser. Looking at your description so will a smart Jailor or Vigilante who can read sudden behavioral changes.


And this is a problem? How?

I would say thats perfectly correct. Medium is already hard-enough to prove. Retributionists are probably the biggest danger for Disguiser - but thats true for Janitor as well, and lets see how good Janitor role already is.
Good Vig/Jailor who can read changes in behaviour is countered by good Disguiser who is aware of this, and changes their behaviour in accordance with behaving as their former target.

Spies wouldnt be a problem unless we are talking about the Disguiser/Janitor or Disguiser/Forger combined strategy. But this is already a problem with Vanilla Disguiser... soo, I think the fact that Disguiser can operate on his own from now on actually renders Spy a little bit more useless. Spy will be only capable of telling something else but killing happened to the target... that can be completedly anything. Forging. Sometimes as a Framer I actually "frame" the attacked target as well, to make Spy think that the will was forged, or something. It could have been a Consort also role-blocking the attacked target - seen that happen too (we were attacking a Bodyguard who was using his Vest - so I had Consort block him while I was attacking him, so we would kill him regardless).

Overal, the Disguiser will be counterable by Retributionist or Medium. Possibly called out by Spy... but thats demerits of using this advanced deception technique. So I would say its only a good thing that the Disguiser is not super efficient.

But you are right, right now, Disguiser is really, really weak role. This should be enough to fix it, though.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby sarysa » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:34 pm

Mroz4k wrote:And this is a problem? How?


It's not a problem. :)

Just stating facts. Disguisers have plenty of counters even if wills are no longer one of them.
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Favorite roles: Jailor, Executioner, Consigliere, Witch, Coven Leader, Guardian Angel
Least favorite: Framer, Disguiser, Jester
Most broken IMO:
Jester - Revert the 2.3.0 patch, give a swiss army knife of nighttime annoyance (ala Potion Master) to aid in fooling the town. Just some kind of agency.
Psychic - Game-breaking enough that I made a thread about it.

VIP - The one true mode.
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:45 pm

This is true.

But at least the role is ever useable now.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby kookeekwisp » Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:35 am

Im bumping.
Disguiser needs this
Plus, the only thing you need to read in this entire post is:
Disguiser has 3 disguises:
On first disguise, the Disguiser´s Last Will is displayed.
On second disguise, the first victim´s Last Will is displayed which matches the name of the dead player.
On third disguise, the second victim´s Last Will is displayed, matching names again.
(i added some parts to simplify it)
Favorite roles: Framer Survivor Trapper VampireHunter Consigliere Mafioso Escort Lookout Mayor Arsonist Disguiser Veteran Bodyguard Plaguebearer Medusa Blackmailer Executioner Doctor Crusader Vigilante Vampire PotionMaster Poisoner Transporter Jester Jailor Consort Ambusher Werewolf SerialKiller Hypnotist CovenLeader Pirate Godfather Sheriff Forger ??? Retributionist Amnesiac Investigator Necromancer Spy GuardianAngel Tracker Psychic HexMaster.

Kirize wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:Dont single out Arso cause it kills slower!
I didnt know you could contradict yourself in one sentence
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby KirbyRider1337 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:46 am

kookeekwisp wrote:Im bumping.
Disguiser needs this
Plus, the only thing you need to read in this entire post is:
Disguiser has 3 disguises:
On first disguise, the Disguiser´s Last Will is displayed.
On second disguise, the first victim´s Last Will is displayed which matches the name of the dead player.
On third disguise, the second victim´s Last Will is displayed, matching names again.
(i added some parts to simplify it)

I'm thinking the names between the victim and the will match, but not the roles. (Example: "Giles Corey the Doc" on Giles the Lookout)
I like these roles:
Town: BodyGuard, Investigator, Jailor, Mayor, Spy
Mafia: Consigliere, Janitor, Mafioso
Neutral: Arsonist, Jester, Serial Killer
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby kookeekwisp » Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:20 am

KirbyRider1337 wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:Im bumping.
Disguiser needs this
Plus, the only thing you need to read in this entire post is:
Disguiser has 3 disguises:
On first disguise, the Disguiser´s Last Will is displayed.
On second disguise, the first victim´s Last Will is displayed which matches the name of the dead player.
On third disguise, the second victim´s Last Will is displayed, matching names again.
(i added some parts to simplify it)

I'm thinking the names between the victim and the will match, but not the roles. (Example: "Giles Corey the Doc" on Giles the Lookout)

Oh, that's right. The roles will still be offset...

unless the first kill is "disguiser killed by mafia".
Favorite roles: Framer Survivor Trapper VampireHunter Consigliere Mafioso Escort Lookout Mayor Arsonist Disguiser Veteran Bodyguard Plaguebearer Medusa Blackmailer Executioner Doctor Crusader Vigilante Vampire PotionMaster Poisoner Transporter Jester Jailor Consort Ambusher Werewolf SerialKiller Hypnotist CovenLeader Pirate Godfather Sheriff Forger ??? Retributionist Amnesiac Investigator Necromancer Spy GuardianAngel Tracker Psychic HexMaster.

Kirize wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:Dont single out Arso cause it kills slower!
I didnt know you could contradict yourself in one sentence
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:56 am

It honestly sucks that people seem to be more focused on pushing out more and more and more and more new role ideas, when its soo blatantly obvious that 99,99% of them are never going to be implemented, even if they are good - because there is just soo much more other, more pressing, development matters to attend to. All the Roles that were suggested by the Kickstarter have been implemented.

There is still plethora of other Kickstarter goals that will be focused before the Devs focus more on new roles - so why bother spending time on that?

I would like to appeal to others to rather give their opinions on buffs/nerfs/changes to the already existing roles, rather then ideas of new roles... cause those are not going to help anyone.

You can fix broken things by adding new ones - thats not a fix at all, thats just a patch at most.

Giving Developers opinions on how to fix the already existing roles will improve the game much, much more then a new role ever would - and improved game feels better to play, for everyone.

If anyone is reading this, I´d like to appeal to you to review Buffs/nerfs/changes more often then just shitting out more and more shitty new role ideas. Its pretty pointless thing to do - there are no new Roles coming in, any time soon. However, changes to the existing roles are more then likely to happen.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:04 pm

And hopefully the next new role is a Neutral Evil that's at least as evil and powerful as the Witch or a new Mafia role.

New NE because the game's NEs need to be more evil, new Mafia because the Investigator's results list really needs at least one more Mafia role.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:23 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:And hopefully the next new role is a Neutral Evil that's at least as evil and powerful as the Witch or a new Mafia role.

New NE because the game's NEs need to be more evil, new Mafia because the Investigator's results list really needs at least one more Mafia role.


Would fully agree with you on both of those statements.

IMO I think Mafia could use another Mafia Support role.

But I am guessing next on the development process will be emotes, just a hunch...
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:03 pm

If you mean after mobile, then probably yes.
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
Image a a a a a
ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Balanced Disguiser mechanics

Postby Mroz4k » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:54 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:If you mean after mobile, then probably yes.


Pretty sure mobile has its own two dedicated developers who work side-by-side with other additions to the game, on the mobile version alone.

Anyways, got any good suggestions on what would a good Mafia Support role would be?

(to add something on-topic:)
I have been trying to image-project how this would work along with other Mafia roles. And I think its perfect the way it is, now. This suggestion would not only make Disguiser be independent on its own, it would greatly increase its applications compared to the rest of Mafia roles. I am trully proud of myself for coming up with this :D
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