The Scientist (Town Investigative) (Used in Testing Grounds)

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The Scientist (Town Investigative) (Used in Testing Grounds)

Postby Exacerbated » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:57 pm

The Investigator and the Sheriff are both fairly linear Town Investigative roles. Just a point and click and you are twenty steps nearer to discerning the game state and figuring out who is who.

The Scientist is a Town Investigative role that has a much higher skill cap but is potentially much more powerful, with the ability to potentially clear TWO townies in one fell swoop or catch TWO Mafia back to back... IF you are good at making associations between players.

I would like to make The Scientist a reality as it shifts the focus of investigative roles away from examining players as atomized individuals towards examining how players are related or interconnected with each other. It is a good thing for this game, in my opinion, to create roles that examine interpersonal dynamics of Town and Mafia behavior.

For those of you who are more familiar with vanilla Mafia, there is a common role called the "Parity Cop." Instead of checking for Green for Town and Red for Mafia, the Parity Cop compares two people and returns with a result of "Same" or "Different" alignment. This is my favorite power role in vanilla Mafia as it involves more critical thinking on the part of Town while it heavily rewards those who use it well and I would enjoy seeing it in action in Town of Salem.

This is my attempt to recreate the Parity Cop in Town of Salem terms.

Name: Scientist
Alignment: Town Investigative
Summary: A fiery intellect who seeks to understand the world around him.
Goal: Lynch every criminal and evildoer.
Has Night Ability?: Yes.
Attributes:
-Take a fingerprint sample of one person each night.
-Compare their sample to the test subject from the previous night for similarities and differences in their alignment supertype.
(Alignment Supertype= Town, Mafia, Neutral. Alignment Subtype like Killing, Protective, Deception, etc. are irrelevant.)
-The first sample will return no result; it is the control group for the next night's sample for comparison.
-You will throw away samples older than one day due to contamination and the previous experimental group becomes the control group.
-You may NOT sample yourself.
-You may NOT sample a revealed Mayor.

Wins with: Town, Survivor, Jester, Executioner, Amnesiac
Must kill: Mafia, Serial Killer, Arsonist, Werewolf
Special Attributes: None.
Categories: None.

Investigation Results:

Sheriff: Your target is not suspicious.
Investigator: Your target gathers information. They must be an Investigator, Scientist, or Consigliere.
Consigliere: Your target has a thirst for knowledge. They must be a Scientist!

Interaction with Framer: If two Townies are compared, the framed Townie will result in a "Different" check from the non-framed Townie. If a Framed Townie and a Mafia member are compared, the game will report a "Same" check.

How the role works:

Say Lauren Mayberry rolls Scientist. She samples Ahori, the Vigilante on Night 1, no result (you can't compare anyone when there is no one to compare to!)

Night two, she samples Grimes, the Jailor. She receives the result of "Same."

Night three, she samples Qi, the Mafia Godfather. She receives a result of "Different."

Night four, she samples Kkangpae, the Mafia Janitor. She receives the result of "Same."

Night five, she samples Vi, the Serial Killer. She receives the result of "Different."

Night six, she samples Exacerbated, the Arsonist. She receives the result of "Same."

Pros:
-Can potentially clear multiple people at once, or catch out multiple people at once; HIGHLY efficient in the night.
-Can clear people without revealing their role.
-Rewards high skill level
-Has a better understanding for more subtle interpersonal actions such as why people are whispering to each other, or if Mafia are bussing each other.
-Can create union between townies who are cleared, creating more effective communication. Encourages more team-oriented play.
-Detects the Godfather
-Gives the Executioner and Consigliere more claim space as it's easier to fake for the Executioner and allows the Consigliere to stay consistent if a Town Investigator calls them out.

Cons:
-High skill cap; can be rather useless if the player is less skilled and cannot properly make associations between players.
-Cannot tell you what role they are, and it relies on others and the player's own deduction to figure that out
-Cannot tell the difference between "good" and "bad", only who is aligned and who is not.
-Can REALLY throw the game for town when the Framer messes with the Scientist's samples. A Framer is a nightmare for the Scientist. This is also my subtle way of indirectly buffing the Framer, making him more deadly when the Scientist is involved.
-Probably easy to fake.
-You could accidentally hang more Jesters with this role; Town and Jester appear as "Different."
-Could potentially be game-breaking in higher level play.

Thoughts?
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Kiyosen » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:20 pm

Roles from other Mafia-type games are usually good sources of inspiration. This is a great one. You've pretty much said what I would have said and I have no suggestions because it seems fine as it is.

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Re: The Scientist

Postby Jtgop » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:05 pm

I like the idea of a comparator, and I like the adding part about having to chain together the results, I think this is a really good role. Only thing I might want to take a look at is the flavor text of checking DNA, but that is a minor thing, and I don't have any ideas at this time.
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Exacerbated » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:16 pm

Jtgop wrote:I like the idea of a comparator, and I like the adding part about having to chain together the results, I think this is a really good role. Only thing I might want to take a look at is the flavor text of checking DNA, but that is a minor thing, and I don't have any ideas at this time.


Oh right, I forgot about the fact this game is set a bit before the enlightenment boom, whereas DNA wasn't discovered until 1860. Maybe skin cells or hair strands or something like that? They did have microscopes back then. (Antonie van Leeuwenhoek, etc.)
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Re: The Scientist

Postby lionon » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:05 am

I like the idea. Its basically a wonderful role.

I'd change the lore a bit tough. Why would mafia have the same or similar DNA? Its not your DNA that is solely responsibly to make someone criminal. Also scientist doesnt quite fit in the late-medieval period the game is kinda set it.

How about historian? Or gossiper? Your targets deal with same/different social circles.

The other issue is, TOS is very, very fast paced and many players rather not so smart.. Many towns are mentally already overwhelmed to trust a real sherrif/investigator with a genuine result and rather lynch anyone that claims anything instead. To claim you are a scientist, and X compares to Y... I'd rather shut up with that role rather than trying to have town follow my logic...

Anyway, the game has currently more bad roles as town roles, making all-any rather unbalanced. And only new bad roles are coming up!
So I am all for a new town role or two. And this is currently definitely my favorite!
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Gobln » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:23 pm

Amazing, this really should be added especially considering alot of the Town Invest roles are just point-click-add to will. Now we just need more interesting Town Protectives
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Exacerbated » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:50 am

I should probably clarify that "alignment" explicitly refers to Supertypes such as Town, Mafia, and Neutral. Subtypes like "Killing", "Support", "Protective", "Investigative", "Benign", "Evil", and "Deception" are irrelevant.

Town Killing like Vigilante and Town Support like Medium would result in a "Same" check.

Neutral Evil like Jester and Neutral Benign like Survivor would also appear as "Same" to the Scientist.

As for the lore, I fixed the bit about DNA as it is ahistorical and inconsistent. However, while Science wasn't as in vogue in the Late Medieval period, there was still a scientific presense, albeit less pronounced.

At any rate, lionon, I agree with your point about biological determinism in that it would be a flawed proposition to suggest that DNA essentially (as in philosophical essentialism) determines behavioral patterns later in life. The flavor I am trying to get at is that the science involved is possibly influenced by quasi-religious mysticism typical of 16th or 17th century science which results in hazy and muddled answers such as being limited to discerning alignment and alignment only.

Perhaps this means I should create an appropriate background story to reflect this which, admittedly, I have failed to do so.

And Gobln, when I have time I might design one. However, Town Protective is probably the hardest subtype to design for without being redundant or overpowered. As it is, the Doctor and Bodyguard are insanely efficient.
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Invenio » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:15 pm

Interesting. So it can tell the exact faction of the player with comparison. Can you target yourself?

I would definitely change the role name from scientist to something else though. DNA just doesn't make sense from what you're finding.
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Arckas » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:19 pm

The one thing I don't like about it is that, say the first sample dies, the scientist now knows how his results will be for the rest of the game. Should the vigilante die, wether or not early or later in the game, the scientist knows what he is looking for. He then become similar to a sheriff that can't see a serial killer exactly but can see godfather.

Suppose also that the sceintist gets a sample from a mafia member first night. Two days later, should the scientist not hit any obscurities, he would then get a different result each night.



Though I like the idea of a comparitor, and this may have even given me an idea.
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Exacerbated » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:21 pm

Invenio wrote:Interesting. So it can tell the exact faction of the player with comparison. Can you target yourself?

I would definitely change the role name from scientist to something else though. DNA just doesn't make sense from what you're finding.


Targeting yourself would be blatantly overpowered. Also, you can't determine exact factions, just whether the two people you are comparing are from the same faction or from a different faction. It cannot determine moral compass, only allegiance.

Also, I have scrapped the idea of analyzing DNA in favor of something more obvious and historically appropriate like skin cells where you can't see the exact helical structures and only what you see on the surface. Think Biology 101 where they teach basic microscope techniques and examine plant and animal cells.

Arckas wrote:The one thing I don't like about it is that, say the first sample dies, the scientist now knows how his results will be for the rest of the game. Should the vigilante die, wether or not early or later in the game, the scientist knows what he is looking for. He then become similar to a sheriff that can't see a serial killer exactly but can see godfather.

Suppose also that the sceintist gets a sample from a mafia member first night. Two days later, should the scientist not hit any obscurities, he would then get a different result each night.



Though I like the idea of a comparitor, and this may have even given me an idea.


It is true that a small percentage of the time it will be a strictly better sheriff or a complete mess such as in your second example. But the probability of jointly having both scenarios overlap is small. A majority of the time you will have your first sample alive (and therefore unconfirmed), and likely town. But you simply have to have a branching thought process that accounts for all the possible permutations plus a psychological and sociological analysis of the players' behavior in the situations where this most likely scenario isn't the case. It is more of a probabilistic role akin to how a Scientist functions in real life; you never know for certain, but through repeated experiments, you can create strong support for your hypothesis (but not 100% proof) with strong empirical evidence and deductive and inductive analysis.

In most situations, you actually have to think about the results you receive and combine it with analysis independent of your night actions. To play the Scientist optimally, one must poke, prod, cajole, and cross-examine for clues to people's roles and motivations by actively asking questions and constantly assessing the interpersonal situation, which will give you guidance towards your night actions.

The idea is that the Scientist gives different information that can be more useful or less useful depending on the situation and has an entirely different focus from what I like to call the "Traffic Light" Cop that gives you green for town, yellow for neutral, and red for mafia, of which results in boring, linear gameplay. The Scientist is much more difficult to use but has a higher power potential.

The Scientist concerns itself with the relationship between people. The "Traffic Cops" are concerned with the information about a person.

By the way, I heavily appreciate criticism like this as it helps me refine and improve my idea. Keep the feedback coming!
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Re: The Scientist

Postby chitownmvp01 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:22 pm

This is an interesting idea. I have always wanted to see a role in the game that can get hints towards someone's alignment, not an exact role or role possibilities. The only think I don't like about this role idea is that it is a little complex and many players, especially new players may get confused with how the role works.

One question I have is if the control is a town killing role and the 2nd night you take a sample of a town support role, do they come up as the same or different? Or will the "different" result only come up if one of your targets isn't a townie?
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Ozyrox » Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:17 pm

I'm not really bothered reading through that but I read the OP and the role is a lovely idea. PM Nelly this role idea to add it to the Masterthread if you already haven't.

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Re: The Scientist

Postby Kalliope » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:49 am

I like the idea, it is obvious that you put a lot of time and effort in to refining it.
My compliments.

Did you consider that the witch or the transporter could wreak havoc on the outcome of the tests.

Witch not so much as the scientist will know he is controlled and his sample is therefore useless so he will have to start a new test-line, but when a transport transports just one of his subjects he can ditch a whole line of test results because it makes every result from the day right before and right after transport unreliable and as a result the string of reasoning in the entire line invalid (and transports are not really known to leave accurate wills or share who they transported while they're still alive).

Without a transporter this would be a very overpowered role especially in all/any where Mafia generally has the upper hand.
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Ozyrox » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:57 am

It's hard to find out who is who when you recieve the notification every 2 night and on of: same or different. The role is as good as it should be. Also will be helpful if you take a skin sample of someone, go to someone else and the results say same, then the 1st person dies to be revealed as Townie or Mafia. But then Framer ruins everything. Transported stuffs it up as well
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Re: The Scientist

Postby SatanicBanana » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:34 pm

I like the idea of this role, but I don't think 'scientist' is an appropriate name. Moreover, the idea that a skin sample will reveal your alignment is vaguely racist (though that was obviously not your intent).

Perhaps a more appropriate name would be 'Psychologist', 'Forensic Psychiatrist', or 'Profiler'. You could interview one player a night instead of taking a skin sample. The text could be something along the lines of, "This subject shares an ideology with the previous subject."
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Re: The Scientist

Postby lionon » Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:01 pm

SatanicBanana wrote:I like the idea of this role, but I don't think 'scientist' is an appropriate name. Moreover, the idea that a skin sample will reveal your alignment is vaguely racist (though that was obviously not your intent).

Perhaps a more appropriate name would be 'Psychologist', 'Forensic Psychiatrist', or 'Profiler'. You could interview one player a night instead of taking a skin sample. The text could be something along the lines of, "This subject shares an ideology with the previous subject."


I agree.

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Re: The Scientist

Postby Ozyrox » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:39 am

Well obviously Exacberated can decide whether she/he wants a name change. Thinking about it maybe it does. I still like the role
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Exacerbated » Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:25 pm

Okay, so common criticisms are:

1.) inconsistency flavor wise
2.) complexity
and
3.) It would make life a living hell for the Scientist when a Witch, Transporter, and Framer are involved.

Some quick but hastily written responses:

1.) I admit, I'm not too big on the "Vorthos" aspect of games, although I probably should be more attentive to that if I want to design a class. I will probably have to brainstorm further in that regard.
2.) The complexity is because, quite frankly, I explained the role in a quite highfalutin manner because I was trying to be technically precise and rigorous for the mechanically-inclined. The most concise way to explain the Scientist is "compare two people each night for similarities and differences in alignment." I probably have to do an overhaul of the Original Post to make it more user-friendly.
3.) There needs to be checks and balances in the game. This isn't any different from an Investigator or Sheriff getting controlled, or a Transporter mixing up results.

I have been busy lately trying to manage my health and schoolwork lately, but hopefully I'll find time next week when exams are over.
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:49 pm

I love this role! I really hope it gets added. It actually needs skill and brains to play. It's a make-or-break role for town, like Mayor and Vig. It could be the MVP...or it could bring the town down. All in all, it's great.
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Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

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Re: The Scientist

Postby Ozyrox » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:44 pm

Yep I seriously believe that is will be a role that everyone wants to be cause it's so awesome!!
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Greenpandalover » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:18 pm

I like this idea and it doesnt seem to complex if I got the rule right.

It would be like this right?

A is Godfather, B is Consig, C is Survivor, D is mayor, and E is medium. This carries on to the next one too.

N1: A
N2: B, same. So A and B are the same.
N3: C, different. So B and C are different. Which means A and C would be different.
N4: D, different. So D and C are different. Which means that D is not C, but also, D might be the same as A and B.
N5: A, Different. So A and D are different. Which would mean A and B are in one group, C is in another group, and D is in another group than AB and C.

Something like that?

Btw encase alot of people think this would be too complex you could make the scientist test two people everynight and see if their from the same faction, but the scientist cant use the same sample two nights in a row. Such as..

N1: A and B, Same.
N2: (A and B cant be selected) C and D, different.
N3:(C and D cant be selectes) A and E, Different
N4: (A and E cant be selected) B and D, different.

This would mean the scientist would be immuned to witches.
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Ozyrox » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:04 am

This seems like a nice idea but it may be abit too OP with this addition.

I think we should have a poll on this
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Greenpandalover » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:22 pm

Ozyrox wrote:This seems like a nice idea but it may be abit too OP with this addition.

I think we should have a poll on this


Yea I was trying to find a way not to make it to complex, but not baby feeding them, thats why I said you couldnt pick the same sample more than once in a row, but now that I think about it, it sounds a bit too OP. Like if theres two confirmed townies, you could just go back and forth on them :/
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:48 pm

Make it so that you can't sample a mayor if they reveal. That would make it as OP as if you could sample yourself.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: The Scientist

Postby Greenpandalover » Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:28 pm

Kirize12 wrote:Make it so that you can't sample a mayor if they reveal. That would make it as OP as if you could sample yourself.


That sounds reasonable, kinda like how the doctor cant heal a revealed Mayor. I like this idea.
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