Framer Rework

[Dimethyltryptamine99]

Framer

Mafia Deception

Abilities:
-Target a player, contaminating their crime scene if they die that night
-Leave false evidence behind of another player
-Conceal your own documents

Attributes
-You may contaminate three crime scenes
Contaminating a Crime Scene
-You MAY destroy all evidence of how that player died
-By contaminating a crime scene, you MAY change how it appears that your target died

Leaving False Evidence
-When you contaminate a crime scene, you will provide false evidence of one selected player
-If that player is investigated by a Sheriff he will appear as suspicious
-If that player is investigated by an Investigator, his results will be shown as your chosen results

Concealing Documents:
-During the night you may conceal your documents
-You may pick a role which you wish to be revealed as upon your death

Additional Information:
At night, this role may visit a player; If that player dies that night the Framer may contaminate the crime scene, eradicating any clue as to the true cause of that player's death. The Framer may change the outcome of how it appeared that player died. Everything from "shot by a Veteran" to "obliterated by the horseman of the apocolypse" The Framer will also leave a bunch of false evidence behind of another player of his chosen. If a Sheriff or Investigator decides to look into the FRAMED player, they may find evidence linking this player to a crime.

Also, I believe the previous Disguiser was underpowered and was never functional enough as a role on its own, so I've implemented it in this role. This role has a passive ability, (which they can change at any time) to change the role they appear as on their deathbed. Creating even more deception among the town.

[Cabohhh]

-You MAY destroy all evidence of how that player died

This is essentially Janitor, but with unlimited uses.

By contaminating a crime scene, you MAY change how it appears that your target died.

This is Benn3's Pseudocider.

Also, I believe the previous Disguiser was underpowered and was never functional enough as a role on its own, so I've implemented it in this role. This role has a passive ability, (which they can change at any time) to change the role they appear as on their deathbed. Creating even more deception among the town.

This is dumb. Since there isn't a mafia visit, it would completely mess up town's numbers. At least with Forger, there's a mafia visit, but with this, you just make mafia seem like town.

TL;DR
This is just Disguiser/Framer/Janitor with unlimited uses. It's unnecessary. It doesn't bring a new twist on anything, and it's unbalanced. Adequate ideas, flawed execution.

[Dimethyltryptamine99]

-You MAY destroy all evidence of how that player died

This is essentially Janitor, but with unlimited uses.

If you had read the post properly, you would realize that is not the case. Perhaps that particular quote is a little confusing, would you word it differently? But "how that player died" = the way they died. Nothing in that quote mentions anything about their identity being wiped. So please, read the post properly next time before making completely invalid comments.

By contaminating a crime scene, you MAY change how it appears that your target died.

This is Benn3's Pseudocider.

Benn3 posted the Pseudocider about 5 days after I made the original post for this rework. I am simply just reposting it to get it brought up again. Anyway, Psudocider is a horrible role as this ability is to weak to function as a standalone-role

Also, I believe the previous Disguiser was underpowered and was never functional enough as a role on its own, so I've implemented it in this role. This role has a passive ability, (which they can change at any time) to change the role they appear as on their deathbed. Creating even more deception among the town.

This is dumb. Since there isn't a mafia visit, it would completely mess up town's numbers. At least with Forger, there's a mafia visit, but with this, you just make mafia seem like town.

You're saying that like its a bad thing when it really isn't. Why does a Mafia visit matter? The only role that can see visits is Spy, which is a terrible role anyway. So weather or not this function has a visit is completely irrelevant. And the role still appears to visit when contaminating a crime scene and framing someone, so its not like this role is immune to Lookout. Being able to appear as another role upon your own demise is a very useful and needed attribute, but is not powerful enough on its own. "you just make mafia seem like town" Duh thats the point its a Mafia deception role for a reason

TL;DR
This is just Disguiser/Framer/Janitor with unlimited uses. It's unnecessary. It doesn't bring a new twist on anything, and it's unbalanced. Adequate ideas, flawed execution.

I've turned the old Disguisers abillity into an attribute, Framer is weak as fuck and its completely different from Janitor. I'm sure it could be limited to 3 uses. It certainly brings a twist on things and is an innovative idea.

[Cabohhh]

-You MAY destroy all evidence of how that player died

This is essentially Janitor, but with unlimited uses.

If you had read the post properly, you would realize that is not the case. Perhaps that particular quote is a little confusing, would you word it differently? But "how that player died" = the way they died. Nothing in that quote mentions anything about their identity being wiped. So please, read the post properly next time before making completely invalid comments.

I'm going to put my personal feelings about you aside.

Obscuring how a player dies would be useless, because your "Framer" would be the only role in the game which could change the notification for how someone dies. Changing the death notification has some use, but just removing it is useless because Town would come to the conclusion that "Oh it was removed by a Framer, probs a mafia kill." It's a shot in the foot, and does virtually nothing. Of course, you could always use it on a random non-mafia target, but chances are that you won't get that lucky.

If there were MULTIPLE roles that could change the "Killed By" notification, then this rework would be somewhat decent. However, since there isn't, it's virtually useless.

By contaminating a crime scene, you MAY change how it appears that your target died.

This is Benn3's Pseudocider.

Benn3 posted the Pseudocider about 5 days after I made the original post for this rework. I am simply just reposting it to get it brought up again. Anyway, Psudocider is a horrible role as this ability is to weak to function as a standalone-role.

So is this.
In theory, the ability is cool, but in a ranked setting, it's virtually useless. The only other killing roles in Ranked are Vigilante, Veteran, and Jailor. Jailor could easily verify the validity of the death, Veteran is a shot in the foot if there is another veteran, and the next day when a Vigilante doesn't die of guilt, they'll realize that there wasn't actually a Vigilante kill.
Also, your entire argument that "Benn3 copied my idea!" is predicated on the fact that they actually read your crap. Kinda narcissistic.
Moving on...

Also, I believe the previous Disguiser was underpowered and was never functional enough as a role on its own, so I've implemented it in this role. This role has a passive ability, (which they can change at any time) to change the role they appear as on their deathbed. Creating even more deception among the town.

This is dumb. Since there isn't a mafia visit, it would completely mess up town's numbers. At least with Forger, there's a mafia visit, but with this, you just make mafia seem like town.

You're saying that like its a bad thing when it really isn't. Why does a Mafia visit matter? The only role that can see visits is Spy, which is a terrible role anyway. So weather or not this function has a visit is completely irrelevant. And the role still appears to visit when contaminating a crime scene and framing someone, so its not like this role is immune to Lookout. Being able to appear as another role upon your own demise is a very useful and needed attribute, but is not powerful enough on its own. "you just make mafia seem like town" Duh thats the point its a Mafia deception role for a reason

This ability was removed, and for good reason. It is neither useful nor a needed attribute.
In a Ranked setting, it's completely useless.
As I stated, the only other killing roles in Ranked are Vigilante, Veteran, and Jailor.
If a Jailor executes you, then you'll die, but then the Jailor will realize that they didn't lose their executions, and point you out as a Framer.
If a Vigilante shoots you, then you'll die, but the Vigilante won't die of guilt, and point you out as a Framer.
If a Veteran shoots you, and you claimed a role that gave your target notifications, then Veteran will realise that there wasn't a notification to them, and point you out as a Framer.

In all of these situations, you will get found out within one night of dying.

Sure, in All Any, you could do this. In All Any (Or really, any gamemode where there's more than 4-5 killing roles), it would have more of an impact.

I'm also interested in how you would frame another player for the death of a town member. The only thing that slightly resembles what you're proposing is the current Disguiser met with a Lookout.

TL;DR: Is it viable?
Not in Ranked, maybe in other gamemodes.
Would I support this role?
With certain changes, yes.

[Dimethyltryptamine99]

I'm going to put my personal feelings about you aside.

Obscuring how a player dies would be useless, because your "Framer" would be the only role in the game which could change the notification for how someone dies. Changing the death notification has some use, but just removing it is useless because Town would come to the conclusion that "Oh it was removed by a Framer, probs a mafia kill." It's a shot in the foot, and does virtually nothing. Of course, you could always use it on a random non-mafia target, but chances are that you won't get that lucky.

If there were MULTIPLE roles that could change the "Killed By" notification, then this rework would be somewhat decent. However, since there isn't, it's virtually useless.

Ok so you've failed to read the post properly again. And now once again, you've nitpicked about something that isn't even correct. There's nothing in the post that mentions that the death notification can be completely removed. The Framer MAY choose to change the death notification e.g. Giles Corey was killed by a Vigilante. He does not have to change the death notification, but still has to complete his frame on someone. But still there's nothing mentioned that the death notification is completely wiped, so I don't know where you got that idea from.

Also, why does the ability being unique to only my Framer somehow make it useless in your perspective? Mafia missing out on a kill in ranked either by attacking Neutral or being Jailed is frequent enough that town may be confused if target player was really killed by a Veteran or not. This role would open up a lot of claim space for the Mafia, so the ability is far from useless

So is this.
In theory, the ability is cool, but in a ranked setting, it's virtually useless. The only other killing roles in Ranked are Vigilante, Veteran, and Jailor. Jailor could easily verify the validity of the death, Veteran is a shot in the foot if there is another veteran, and the next day when a Vigilante doesn't die of guilt, they'll realize that there wasn't actually a Vigilante kill.
Also, your entire argument that "Benn3 copied my idea!" is predicated on the fact that they actually read your crap. Kinda narcissistic.
Moving on...

Three killing roles is enough in ranked to make this role viably. Vigilante dies of guilt a night later. 1 day is enough time to cause confusing and have a potential mislynch. "IF there is another Veteran" Fake claim Jailor then. Jailor doesn't always claim after all.

"Keep my personal feelings about you aside" Seems like the whole post you haven't done that at all. I never argued about it as well. You nitpicked and said "this is Bens Psuedercider" and I just simply stated that I had originally posted this prior to that role

"read my crap" ahaha ok bud, I have a lot better ideas then you though. I don't create a role that already exists and put my own twist on it e.g. your role which is literally just an investigator with some stupid flavour.

And pretty sure I'm not the only person that Ben has taken ideas from.

This ability was removed, and for good reason. It is neither useful nor a needed attribute.
In a Ranked setting, it's completely useless.
As I stated, the only other killing roles in Ranked are Vigilante, Veteran, and Jailor.
If a Jailor executes you, then you'll die, but then the Jailor will realize that they didn't lose their executions, and point you out as a Framer.
If a Vigilante shoots you, then you'll die, but the Vigilante won't die of guilt, and point you out as a Framer.
If a Veteran shoots you, and you claimed a role that gave your target notifications, then Veteran will realise that there wasn't a notification to them, and point you out as a Framer.

In all of these situations, you will get found out within one night of dying.

You clearly have no idea what your talking about. Showing up in the graveyard as a Investigator or Bodyguard when you are Framer is enough to conflict the town about the Mafia numbers, especially if you are mislynched.

All your pointss are "IF this happens" and you are clearly focusing on negative possibilities (which most roles have) instead of the positives of this role. And some of these possibilities are not even that bad as there is usually an entire day before town realises that you were a Framer. A day is almost 1/4 of the game in a typical match of TOS.

"If a Jailor executes you, then you'll die, but then the Jailor will realize that they didn't lose their executions, and point you out as a Framer." But what if it was there last execution? Jailor won't notice until a night later, boohoo.
"If a Vigilante shoots you, then you'll die, but the Vigilante won't die of guilt, and point you out as a Framer." Or maybe the Vigilante was forged the previous night.
"If a Veteran shoots you, and you claimed a role that gave your target notifications, then Veteran will realise that there wasn't a notification to them, and point you out as a Framer." There's only a few roles that provide feedback. Once again, just nitpicking

[Benn3]

In terms of the main addition, I don't think Framer needs the death change ability; it's more suited for Forger. Them changing their role on death should also just be implemented back into Disguiser since they need a rework too.

-You may contaminate three crime scenes

This rework even with unlimited uses would be weak; you don't need to add a limit on the charges.

-If that player is investigated by a Sheriff he will appear as suspicious
-If that player is investigated by an Investigator, his results will be shown as your chosen results

What about the other TIs? Framer should affect Lookout, Tracker, Psychic, and Spy, but in your rework here it still only affects Sheriff and Investigator.

Overall, it's better than the current Framer, but the ability to change death outcomes is unnecessary and should be added to Forger if it were to be added. The ability to change your role on death should, as I said earlier, be implemented back into Disguiser, or just not added back. The main issues people have with Framer right now is that it only affects Sheriff and Investigator, and it doesn't do that very well. Your rework makes it so that they can change the Investigator result, but that isn't enough.

And replying to what you've said:

There's nothing in the post that mentions that the death notification can be completely removed.

You said "-You MAY destroy all evidence of how that player died" and then you said "-By contaminating a crime scene, you MAY change how it appears that your target died" so the OP does indeed mention that the death notification can be removed, or at least it was implied.

And pretty sure I'm not the only person that Ben has taken ideas from.

1: I already told you a while ago on my Pseudocider role thread that I did not copy your idea; another guy even posted a fuck ton of roles that had the same thing. Changing the death outcome is a common suggestion, at the time I had just got on the forums and the only roles I had looked at were, I think the roles from the May poll. I had LITERALLY just came up with it when I wasn't even HOME, but you seem to think that you 'invented' it and just blatantly ignored what I said.

2: When you say that I've 'stolen' more role ideas than 'just yours', at least try and specify. The only one I've actually copied is Rain Dancer but I gave credit to the original and posted the link to it; I just wanted to add some more abilities. These forums have been a thing since 2015 it's highly likely to come up with the same idea as someone else. I'm assuming that you actually haven't read my role ideas and you're just guessing that I steal from people due to how you say "pretty sure". Fr just, stop with the shit about me stealing role ideas from people.

And Cabo:

This is Benn3's Pseudocider.

Obviously the death outcome thing wasn't originally my suggestion(and again, at the time I did not know that), and you Mars thought yours was the "original" until another guy posted 5 more examples, so you're being a hypocrite still. Although, you deserve the same treatment. Could just make a huge fuss about it and say that you copied Tamperer, Hoaxer, Announcer, and Surrealist, but I won't because there's no reason to do that in the first place.

[Dimethyltryptamine99]

This rework even with unlimited uses would be weak; you don't need to add a limit on the charges.

A limit of 3 was there when I originally wrote the post. But I do recall Cabooh making a big deal about it having unlimited uses. But Cabooh has not read things multiple times

The role is certainly not weak. Seeing as it has 3 abilities, all which could be viable.

What about the other TIs? Framer should affect Lookout, Tracker, Psychic, and Spy, but in your rework here it still only affects Sheriff and Investigator.

Overall, it's better than the current Framer, but the ability to change death outcomes is unnecessary and should be added to Forger if it were to be added. The ability to change your role on death should, as I said earlier, be implemented back into Disguiser, or just not added back. The main issues people have with Framer right now is that it only affects Sheriff and Investigator, and it doesn't do that very well. Your rework makes it so that they can change the Investigator result, but that isn't enough.

Disguiser already effects Lookout. Spy needs a rework and Psychic is a dumb role

And replying to what you've said:

There's nothing in the post that mentions that the death notification can be completely removed.

You said "-You MAY destroy all evidence of how that player died" and then you said "-By contaminating a crime scene, you MAY change how it appears that your target died" so the OP does indeed mention that the death notification can be removed, or at least it was implied.

Why? Why was that necessary to reply to this. You are bloody nitpicking. I already explained how the role functions, so I should not have to explain it again. But it was never implied and I have mentioned that the death notification can be removed, so fuck off.

Obviously the death outcome thing wasn't originally my suggestion(and again, at the time I did not know that), and you Mars thought yours was the "original" until another guy posted 5 more examples, so you're being a hypocrite still. Although, you deserve the same treatment. Could just make a huge fuss about it and say that you copied Tamperer, Hoaxer, Announcer, and Surrealist, but I won't because there's no reason to do that in the first place.

You already did make a huge fuss about it with your previous two paragraphs. I didn't start this argument, Cabboh did by nitpicking and now you're just nitpicked as well. You Benn are the bloody hypocrite. Also, do I have to state myself once again. I never said that my idea was the original. I implied that your timing was quite convenient seeing as my idea was on the first page. And I've also noticed you taken concepts from other people's ideas and implementing them in your own roles

Jesus christ, why is everyone so damn offended over the smallest thing? You're the 3rd annoying bastard that's made a big deal about me saying I stole your role, get the fuck over it honestly.

[Benn3]

The role is certainly not weak. Seeing as it has 3 abilities, all which could be viable.

I think the issue is that the changing of the death isn't a good enough of an addition to make framing/contaminating only have three uses. Changing your own role on death is a separate thing. It'd still be hard to actually do the FRAMING part of this Framer rework.

Disguiser already effects Lookout. Spy needs a rework and Psychic is a dumb role

Disguiser also needs a rework; it'd be better if their ability to affect Lookout was added into Framer, along with affecting Tracker. Even if Psychic is a dumb role, Framer should still affect them by simply making their framed target appear in the next Evil vision. Spy I do agree needs a rework but I'm sure there's some way to make Framer affect them as they currently are.

Why? Why was that necessary to reply to this. You are bloody nitpicking. I already explained how the role functions, so I should not have to explain it again. But it was never implied and I have mentioned that the death notification can be removed, so fuck off.

Because you said that the death notification CAN'T be removed, and so I replied because in the OP it says that it CAN. After Cabo talked about removing the death notification being useless you replied saying "There's nothing in the post that mentions that the death notification can be completely removed." and now you are saying that it can be removed? Just be more clear with shit because the post literally says "you may destroy all evidence of how that player died", and you should expect feedback on it.

You already did make a huge fuss about it with your previous two paragraphs. I didn't start this argument, Cabboh did by nitpicking and now you're just nitpicked as well. You Benn are the bloody hypocrite. Also, do I have to state myself once again. I never said that my idea was the original. I implied that your timing was quite convenient seeing as my idea was on the first page. And I've also noticed you taken concepts from other people's ideas and implementing them in your own roles

"I never said my idea was the original" Miss me with that bullshit, is your memory that bad? Remember when you replied to my role idea saying:

"I was the first to suggest this. Twice actually, one of them quite recently. Stop stealing my ideas ffs. Instead comment on the original idea about any changes or suggestions"

"Look you're new here, but don't snoop around the role section and gather ideas for your own roles and pose them as your own. Especially if they have been recently suggested and especially when you haven't even commented on the original suggestion, just downright rude bud."

You even tried to get it blocked from the Testing Grounds. It seems to me you STILL think that I copied your role idea, and apparently getting INSPIRED from other role ideas is "copying", like bitch that's where most of the roles on these forums originate from; inspiration. If you really think that getting inspired by other role ideas is 'copying', then tell that to the hundreds of role ideas that have been posted on here. Also, how am I the hypocrite? I'm calling you a hypocrite because you got pissed off about me apparently copying your role idea, but it turns out you had copied it from a variety of different role ideas too.

You told Cabo that you can't remove the death animation entirely and that he 'needs to read the post correctly'. The thing is it LITERALLY says 'you may destroy all evidence of how your target died', so I pointed that out to you. That's not nitpicking. If you don't want that to be an ability remove the part that says it is, and don't tell people they read the post wrong.

Jesus christ, why is everyone so damn offended over the smallest thing? You're the 3rd annoying bastard that's made a big deal about me saying I stole your role, get the fuck over it honestly.

When the fuck did I say you stole my role?? You're flipping this entire thing around. You made a huge deal out of me 'stealing' your role idea in the first place, and now you're flipping it around like I was the one who did that. YOU need to get YOUR narcissistic ass over it because you do not OWN every role and you do not INVENT every role the moment you post it, and stop making up shit. The forum still exists so there's no reason to try and lie. What you tell everyone to stop doing is, in actuality, what YOU'RE doing.

[Dimethyltryptamine99]

Don't make me out as the bad guy when I'm not. I never tried to start an argument, you did.

You're having a massive go at something I said a over a month ago which wasn't even much of a big deal. The way you're acting about this is quite pathetic really. Its actually laughable that you've spent this much time gathering intel from other threads to try and prove your point. Pathetic, absolutely pathetic.

When someone tells you to "fuck off". In the future do so, don't try to aggravate people more. You'll save yourself a lot of time

"Because you said that the death notification CAN'T be removed, and so I replied because in the OP it says that it CAN. After Cabo talked about removing the death notification being useless you replied saying "There's nothing in the post that mentions that the death notification can be completely removed." and now you are saying that it can be removed? Just be more clear with shit because the post literally says "you may destroy all evidence of how that player died", and you should expect feedback on it."

I already explained how the role functions, you fucking bastard. Like I already said the last ten times. Just because you don't like how its worded, dont have a fucking go at me about it.

The bullet point falls under one abillity as seen below.

Spoiler:

Contaminating a Crime Scene
-You MAY destroy all evidence of how that player died
-By contaminating a crime scene, you MAY change how it appears that your target died

When the fuck did I say you stole my role?? You're flipping this entire thing around. You made a huge deal out of me 'stealing' your role idea in the first place, and now you're flipping it around like I was the one who did that. YOU need to get YOUR narcissistic ass over it because you do not OWN every role and you do not INVENT every role the moment you post it, and stop making up shit. The forum still exists so there's no reason to try and lie. What you tell everyone to stop doing is, in actuality, what YOU'RE doing.

[/quote][/quote]

You're the narcissist starting a big argument over it. And don't call me a narcissist you fucking c*nt just because you seen me call someone else that. I never claimed I invented every role the moment I posted it. You're so offended because I accused you of taken ideas from other peoples posts. Boo fucking hoo. And you're the one making up shit to try and prove your point.

"because you got pissed off about me apparently copying your role idea, but it turns out you had copied it from a variety of different role ideas too"

Never got pissesd off about it. You're the one who's clearly pissed off. Bit pathetic when when it happened over a month ago.

Role ideas suggested over a year ago with a completely different name doesn't exactly count as stealing them. My point was you were reading recently posted role idea threads and taking others ideas for your own, rather then just posting a suggesting on the original thread.

Once again, fuck off.