Neutrals should be sorted differently.

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Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:46 pm

Instead of "Neutral Benign" and "Neutral Evil", the brackets should be "Neutral Independent" and "Neutral Reliant".

Neutral Independent contains roles that can win with any other faction as long as their personal goal is met, so Survivor, Executioner, Jester, and Pirate.

Neutral Reliant contains roles that rely on another faction to win, so Amnesiac, Witch, and Guardian Angel. (Maybe have an effort to fill it out with at least one more non-Coven role, though)

Neutral Killing is the same, except Plaguebearer is moved to it.

Neutral Chaos now only contains Vampires.

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Edit - Mentioned Guardian Angel because I initially forgot about it.
Last edited by SilverCruz on Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby Brilliand » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:49 pm

There's also Guardian Angel for Neutral Reliant, so it doesn't even need another role really.

I like this split.
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:51 pm

Forgot about Guardian Angel, but yeah, it'd fit into Reliant no problem. Only snag is that's a Coven role, so in non-Coven that's still two roles for the whole bracket, which is a little thin.
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:49 pm

/nosupport

Exe, Jest, and Pirate have abilities and/or wincons that are inherently anti-Town (killing, needing to get a Town member dead, etc.) and therefore shouldn't be aligned with Survivor

Similar issue with putting GA, Amne, and Witch together: GA and Amne can win with anyone (it's the point at which they take a side that differs), while Witch is forced to be anti-Town

PB is too functionally different from the other NKs, hence why it's a NC in the first place

Leaving Vamp in Neutral is a no, it needs its own factional alignment
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:05 pm

Firstly, that's outright false. A Jester in a certain kind of mood can intentionally choose to support the Town at no detriment to itself by choosing to haunt somebody it can reasonably believe to be a member of the Mafia. More to the point, Survivor is not a nice role. It is completely within its stated goals to screw over the Town if it feels that it is more secure for it to do so. If someone says "We can lynch the Jailor if the Survivor votes with us." and there's suddenly only one vote left before the Jailor gets put up, I'm going to vote against that yutz who revealed Day 1 because they are a greater threat to my personal security than the Godfather or Mafioso since I can't vest off an execution.

Second, Plaguebearer is in Chaos because once it rolls over into Pestilence, it can't be executed by the Almighty Wesley Jailor. That's literally it. Other than that, it's just the sick lovechild of an Arsonist and a Werewolf.

Third, Vampire being in Neutral Chaos is virtually the same thing as having its own faction. Potato potato.
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I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:55 pm

I don't think I need to explain why a killing ability in the hands of a non-Town role is anti-Town
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby Brilliand » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:09 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:I don't think I need to explain why a killing ability in the hands of a non-Town role is anti-Town


For the same reason a killing ability in the hands of a Town role is anti-Town? Wait...

A killing ability is power. If the role is already anti-Town it makes it more anti-Town, but if the role can side with Town it won't be less likely to side with Town just because it can kill. Heck, look at Pirate... I hear that's basically a Town role nowadays (because it's highly confirmable, and has no reason not to let the Town tell it who to kill, provided it gets to kill somebody).
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:29 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:I don't think I need to explain why a killing ability in the hands of a non-Town role is anti-Town


You're also overlooking the fact that my position is to stop sorting roles by their relation to the town in the first place. Pirate is in Chaos because it's too aggressive to be Benign or Evil, but not enough to be Killing. Neutral Chaos should not exist as a landfill for roles that can't be adequately placed elsewhere, so it'd be an improvement to sort them by the general bracket of their win condition since it'd be better to put all the FYGM roles together than it is to arbitrarily put a role that wants to make the Town lose with two roles that really don't care what happens to the Town one way or another as long as they get what they want.
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I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:21 pm

Neutral categories are not really used in any game modes anymore lmao.

So I think this change would only really effect custom?

I mean witch/amne/GA don't fit but at the same time I don't think the current neutral evil category is a good one
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NE: Witch
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:53 pm

It'd make them more usable in a way, though truth told the game should just support arbitrary groups and use them itself. Like if you wanted to make an arbitrary group of Survivor/Witch/Framer/Arsonist, you could do that. More practically, the game could replace that static Executioner with an arbitrary group of Executioner/Jester/Survivor/Amnesiac if double Witch is something that is unwanted for some reason.
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby Ezradekezra » Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:15 pm

NE and NK slots are still in Coven Ranked, which very much has a playerbase.

I still vastly prefer my own proposition from a few months ago as it doesn't put Surv with Pirate and Amne with Witch. That's even swingier than the current arrangement in some regards.
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:10 pm

I should point out that since Witch doesn't exist in Coven, its Neutral Evil is a glorified Exejester bracket, so in this case it'd probably get sacked for Neutral Independent, which would only add Survivor to the mix.

Plus, as far as swinging goes, there are way bigger contributors to swingy rounds, mainly the fact that the game is completely blind to role weight and reliance, and role balance is totally out of whack. Let's take an example in Mafia Un/ranked that blatantly favors the Town.

TI1 - Spy
TI2 - Lookout
TS - Mayor
TP - Bodyguard
RT1 - Bodyguard
RT2 - Bodyguard
RT3 - Bodyguard
RM1 - Framer
RM2 - Framer

In this case, the Framers are literally useless at night and serve no purpose except to give the Spy free information on who's not a member of the Mafia because the roles they rely on to have even a theoretical positive effect for the Mafia do not exist, they have no way of knowing those roles do not exist, and the Jailor who obviously revealed on Day 1 because you can't punish that behaviour has enough Bodyguards to kill off the entire Mafia.

So a better start to reducing swinginess in Un/ranked would be to get that weight in check. Like I'd say make Bodyguard unique due to it being a Town Killing in all but name and change its Investigation bracket for Godfather's sake (nevermind I don't think Godfather or Mafioso for that matter should exist as roles), and simply blacklist Framer from appearing Un/ranked because of how bad it is.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby Ezradekezra » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:39 pm

It's possible to work on fixing multiple issues at once

I fail to see the point here
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:36 pm

Not if you're BMG and decided that making a new game that nobody wanted is a better idea than tuning the one you already have.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby WaveAqualei » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:06 am

SilverCruz wrote:Instead of "Neutral Benign" and "Neutral Evil", the brackets should be "Neutral Independent" and "Neutral Reliant".

Neutral Independent contains roles that can win with any other faction as long as their personal goal is met, so Survivor, Executioner, Jester, and Pirate.

Neutral Reliant contains roles that rely on another faction to win, so Amnesiac, Witch, and Guardian Angel. (Maybe have an effort to fill it out with at least one more non-Coven role, though)

Neutral Killing is the same, except Plaguebearer is moved to it.

Neutral Chaos now only contains Vampires.

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Edit - Mentioned Guardian Angel because I initially forgot about it.


I would just add more NE roles and move Jester to NC
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:21 am

Ezradekezra wrote:NE and NK slots are still in Coven Ranked, which very much has a playerbase.

I still vastly prefer my own proposition from a few months ago as it doesn't put Surv with Pirate and Amne with Witch. That's even swingier than the current arrangement in some regards.

Yeah because coven ranked is played.

My point is that nk and nb aren't in, most forms of play anymore and when they do appear it's generally always alone and not categoriezed so this change would change nothing NE isn't a good category for exe/jester, people find those sorts of roles fun and normally play them evil but they are very benign self serving objectives especially jester. Whole witch is purely evil sided a actual "NE"

Personally how I'd categorieze things is
Ne=Witch
Nb=exe/jester/surv/amne/Ga

Jester imo is completely nb while exe is slightly evil sided but basically becomes survivor when there targets lynched or the become a jester.

Witch obviously should have 1-2 NEs but consider the tos team are likely focusing on another game for the foreseeable future I doubt we'll get anything big like new roles that generally would have been more then welcome
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby SilverCruz » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:09 am

Benign is a bad word for this game if you ask me. The reason Executioner, Jester, and Pirate aren't in that bracket is because there's an aspect of them that involves at least one other player getting knocked out. Pirate, likewise, isn't in Neutral Killing because it doesn't want to wipe out the rest of the factions, it just gets bored after two and decides that it's finished.

So the main premise for this was to get rid of that word and replace it with something a little less rigid. You could call the first bracket something like "Neutral Individual" instead of "Neutral Independent" as an excuse to put Amnesiac and/or Guardian Angel in there, but it'd still run afoul of the fact that Witch is the only Neutral Role that truly relies on another faction to win.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby MarsGodofWar » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:02 am

Neutral Chaos is really just a dumping ground for roles which they don't know where to put.

Pirate always sides with town. It's a role that you can publicly claim every game and no one gives a shit about you. Most of the time people let you win. The role is just a horrible design and needs some changes.

Plaguebearer is a Neutral Killer, period. His goal is to see everyone dead, like other Neutral Killers. Just because it has to achieve a goal before hes able to kill anyone, doesn't remove that fact.

Vampire should just be a faction on its own. Doesn't make sense that its apart of this Neutral Chaos dumping ground.

Neutrals should be split three ways. Neutral Evils - roles which are clearly against the town and have to see the town lose and can only win with evil factions. Evil is in the name for a reason. And I don't consider Jester or Executioner to be TRUE Neutral Evils as they can both side with the town and have their win handed to them. Executioner is just a bad role straight up which no one likes to play as. Neutral Benign - roles that can side with whoever they want or are assigned a faction to side with and finally Neutral Killers - roles which have to kill the entire town and all other factions.

Neutral Evil - Witch, Pirate
Neutral Benign - Executioner, Jester, Survivor, Amnesiac, Guardian Angel
Neutral Killing - Serial Killer, Plaguebearer, Werewolf, Arsonist, Juggernaut


Soulshade55r wrote:Witch obviously should have 1-2 NEs but consider the tos team are likely focusing on another game for the foreseeable future I doubt we'll get anything big like new roles that generally would have been more then welcome


The Neutral Evil category is the one alignment that needs another 2-3 roles added. Rather then just having the Witch alongside the Mafia everygame as the only TRUE Neutral Evil role. If Random Neutral Evil was still in the game, most of the times the Executioner or Jester would side with the town. So they are not Neutral Evils.
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Re: Neutrals should be sorted differently.

Postby SilverCruz » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:44 pm

Like I said. The only reason Pirate isn't any other Neutral is because it declares attacks before winning, so that strikes it from Benign and Evil, and it gets bored after two successful attacks so that strikes it from Killing. Also, you put Pirate into your Neutral Evil reclassification in spite of its behaviour directly contradicting your definition of Neutral Evil.

The only reason Plaguebearer isn't Neutral Killing is because God forbid there be a role in a Ranked match that can't be executed by the Almighty Wesley Jailor. Again, it's just the sick lovechild of an Arsonist and a Werewolf.

Vampire isn't really worth having its own faction since it's a one-role faction, so just renaming "Neutral Chaos" to "Neutral Faction" would be sufficient for dealing with it after Neutral Chaos doesn't have anything in it but Vampire anyway.

The problem is that Pirates, Jesters, and Executioners simply aren't benign by that word's actual definition, so it'd be best to just give up the label and change it to Neutral Individual so that it can be the container of roles that can win before the round is over. Also the Amnesiac. It's a semantic game and those suck, but it's one that seems to be influencing how Neutral Roles are sorted.

Nevermind that Bodyguard and Transporter are Town Killing in all but name. Moreso Bodyguard than Transporter. I know why they're placed under Protective/Support, it's because they don't declare attacks, they declare actions that can resolve in an attack (Bodyguard) or redirect an attack (Transporter) plus there only being two Town Protectives at the moment and a probable lack of desire to have a one-role Town bracket, but still. If this Town Power label ever comes into vogue, Transporter needs to go into that. Bodyguard, on the other hand, just needs to be made Unique and have its Investigation bracket changed, moreso for the sake of Godfather and Arsonist than itself.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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