Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

Should the Duel and Protect Actions be mixed into One?

Yes, Make it possible to protect 2 people in 1 night, but be more likely to die in the early game
7
64%
No, it is balanced as is
4
36%
No, the role is is overpowered.
0
No votes
No, but the role is underpowered and needs other changes.
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 11

Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby sunbird1002 » Sun May 23, 2021 4:04 pm

Time for my annual return from hibernation to bring a remake of an older role.

Name: Duelist

Alignment: Town Protective

Goal: Lynch all criminals and evildoers

Abilities: Duel two people at night, or protect one person.

Attributes:
You get 1 bulletproof vest.
Duelling: Double Checkbox ability.
You duel both people chosen, adding them to the list of people you have duelled.
All killing scum roles will get the message 'You have been dueled by the Duelist!'
Mafia who have been dueled and are promoted will be informed on promotion.
Any turned vampires will be informed on being the youngest.
You do not protect either of your targets
A Witch will redirect your first checkbox, and not affect your second one
Your second visit is an astral visit.

Protecting: Single checkbox ability.
You protect your target
If a previously undueled person attacks your target, you die in their place
If a previously dueled person attacks your target, you and your target survive and you kill the attacker.
If several people attack your target, you take part in ALL duels

Investigative Results:
Sheriff: Your target is Not Suspicious.
Investigator: Your target is a mastermind at taking others down. They must be a Bodyguard, Duelist, Godfather, or Arsonist!
Consigliere: Your target has a huge collection of rapiers. They must be a Duelist!

Notifications:
Spoiler: You have decided to duel ____ tonight.
You have instead decided to duel ____ tonight.
You have decided to protect ____ tonight.
You have instead decided to protect ____ tonight.
(To killing scum who have been dueled) You have been dueled by the Duelist!
You were attacked, but someone jumped in to protect you!
Your target was attacked, but you knew their attackers' dueling style!
Your target was attacked, and you did not know their attackers' dueling style!


So, what does this all mean?
Here is an example game with a Duelist
Spoiler: N1: The Duelist chooses the Doctor and Investigator.
Result: Both are dueled and added to Alice's list. Neither get a message because they arent killing scum.

N2: The Duelist chooses the Mafioso and the Sheriff.
Result: Both are dueled. The Mafioso gets the "You have been dueled!" message, informing them of their weakness.

N3: The Duelist chooses the Vigilante and Medium. The Medium is attacked by the Serial Killer.
Result: Both town roles are unknowingly dueled. The Medium dies to the Serial Killer as the duelist is not protecting them.

N4: The Duelist chooses the Godfather.
Result: Alice does not duel the Godfather. They are protecting them.

N5: The Duelist protects the Doctor. The 'dueled' Mafioso (on the Duelist's list) attacks the Doctor.
Result: The Mafioso dies, and the Duelist AND Doctor survive. Good that the Mafioso was dueled N2!

N6: The Duelist protects the Mayor. The 'dueled' Vigilante and 'undueled' Serial Killer attack.
Result: The Mayor survives. The dueled Vigilante dies as they have been dueled N3. The undueled Serial Killer kills the Duelist, as their fighting style is not remembered.
Last edited by sunbird1002 on Sun May 30, 2021 4:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby runningwiththepower » Mon May 24, 2021 12:19 am

i already said why i liked this on the discord :P

/support
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby sunbird1002 » Fri May 28, 2021 12:25 pm

I have waited some time. Any feedback for minor changes to this role? I think it should get a best so I will change that. Anything else?
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby superdog551 » Fri May 28, 2021 7:29 pm

Seems interesting, though a bit situational. Lets say for example the Duelist protects a dueled person and that person gets attacked by... a crazy number like 3 or more people in the same night. If all of those people have been dueled will they ALL die?

I know that wouldn't happen in a more balanced game mode like ranked but I'm not sure from reading what would happen in this instance
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby alex1234321 » Fri May 28, 2021 8:16 pm

I really like this role, but it seems UP right now. Assuming that killing scum is equivalent to saving 1.5 Town in terms of utility (since it's 9v6), protecting someone would either have no benefit for Town (if the killer is undueled) or 2.5 Townies' worth of benefit (if the killer is dueled). This means that 40 percent of players would have to be dueled at a given time to have the same expected power as Doctor, which you should achieve after around 3 nights (0.4 * 15 / 2) on average. So you basically need to do nothing for half the game to reach the power level of Doctor. I'm not gonna get into all the math here, but assuming a 6 night game, dueling for the first three nights and protecting for the last three is the optimal strategy and would make the Duelist half as powerful as Doctor.

I'm not sure how to fix this. Quadruple targeting would make the power even, but that just seems like a ridiculous number of targets. Allowing it to kill any dueled scum visitors could work though. Making the same assumption that killing scum is the same as saving 1.5 Town and also assuming that half the non-killing evils are alive on average at a given time, this would add 1.5 * 3 / 2 = 2.25 Doctors' worth of power to the Duelist once everyone is dueled. Combined with the 2.5 number from before and using the same optimal strategy, this modification would make the Duelist 95% as powerful as a Doctor. Considering the huge margin for error, this is fine.

This role could be too swingy since the skill ceiling is so high compared to Doctor while the floor is much lower. By that logic, quadruple targeting might not be such a bad idea. Either way, I would be interested in seeing how this performs in tests, especially if you add one of my suggested buffs.

Sketchy math is fun.
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby sunbird1002 » Sat May 29, 2021 3:16 am

superdog551 wrote:Seems interesting, though a bit situational. Lets say for example the Duelist protects a dueled person and that person gets attacked by... a crazy number like 3 or more people in the same night. If all of those people have been dueled will they ALL die?

I know that wouldn't happen in a more balanced game mode like ranked but I'm not sure from reading what would happen in this instance


Yes they would all die, because the duelist takes part in ALL duels. Otherwise, I'd have to make a priority order for who the duelist duels. I CAN do that. I just want the most simple and intuitive version of the role first before making necessary nerfs/buffs which may make it more complex.
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby sunbird1002 » Sat May 29, 2021 3:21 am

alex1234321 wrote:I really like this role, but it seems UP right now. Assuming that killing scum is equivalent to saving 1.5 Town in terms of utility (since it's 9v6), protecting someone would either have no benefit for Town (if the killer is undueled) or 2.5 Townies' worth of benefit (if the killer is dueled). This means that 40 percent of players would have to be dueled at a given time to have the same expected power as Doctor, which you should achieve after around 3 nights (0.4 * 15 / 2) on average. So you basically need to do nothing for half the game to reach the power level of Doctor. I'm not gonna get into all the math here, but assuming a 6 night game, dueling for the first three nights and protecting for the last three is the optimal strategy and would make the Duelist half as powerful as Doctor.


Of course, part of the game is trying to figure out scum, so there is a skill ceiling to rise from. It does give a slight benefit to town even with undueled targets, as it is dying in Town Power's place, but I do understand how this is not a really strong argument, as it doesn't affect vote numbers. I can see how this can be quite swingy depending on how good the duelist is (a bit like vigilante.) I'd be interested also.
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 29, 2021 12:34 pm

alex1234321 wrote:I really like this role, but it seems UP right now. Assuming that killing scum is equivalent to saving 1.5 Town in terms of utility (since it's 9v6), protecting someone would either have no benefit for Town (if the killer is undueled) or 2.5 Townies' worth of benefit (if the killer is dueled). This means that 40 percent of players would have to be dueled at a given time to have the same expected power as Doctor, which you should achieve after around 3 nights (0.4 * 15 / 2) on average. So you basically need to do nothing for half the game to reach the power level of Doctor. I'm not gonna get into all the math here, but assuming a 6 night game, dueling for the first three nights and protecting for the last three is the optimal strategy and would make the Duelist half as powerful as Doctor.

I'm not sure how to fix this. Quadruple targeting would make the power even, but that just seems like a ridiculous number of targets. Allowing it to kill any dueled scum visitors could work though. Making the same assumption that killing scum is the same as saving 1.5 Town and also assuming that half the non-killing evils are alive on average at a given time, this would add 1.5 * 3 / 2 = 2.25 Doctors' worth of power to the Duelist once everyone is dueled. Combined with the 2.5 number from before and using the same optimal strategy, this modification would make the Duelist 95% as powerful as a Doctor. Considering the huge margin for error, this is fine.


How about making the protect also double-target? The role's mechanics would probably then have to be combined into one action ("Select two targets, you will both duel and protect each of those targets. Direct-attacking killing roles will be notified.").

This would make it cross over from "weaker than Doctor" to "stronger than Doctor" at the end of N3, and get enough compensation for its early weakness at the end of N4.
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby sunbird1002 » Sat May 29, 2021 12:37 pm

I mean, that could work, and it certainly would then be a unique role. In the early game it would want to duel people they think WONT be attacked and later on...
Yeah that can sound really good to be honest. Also thanks that you at least think this role has a chance Brilliand. I would like to see what others think about that change though.
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon May 31, 2021 3:46 pm

Pretty interesting take on a TP, reminds me of a weaker BG but if you play it right it can be stronger

/Support

I think it adds something to the Tp role without being too OP or UP.
Somethings might need some work, personally I think evils don't really need to know if a duelist is dueling them, it doesn't do much other then "kill a duelist claim" I think we could remove that aspect about it personally as duelist already has to get the right player if they intend to kill them.
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby ak521 » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:13 pm

I think you need to drastically simplify this but also keep it balanced. I trust that it's balanced to implement but it's also difficult to fully understand.
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:51 am

I like the role but I think there should be a limit on how many duels he can do, otherwise it becomes a transporter, useless on the wrong hands but extremely powerful on the right ones
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby sunbird1002 » Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:48 pm

A previous version of duelist was "capped" at remembering the last 4 people they dueled. This I think is better than capping the amount of duels, as then N1 would take up a third of all his possible duels, without them having any info to base them off.

Also, there is already a soft cap for the amount of duels a duelist can do as they are not protecting anyone while dueling.

However, I do think that comparing this to transporter is unfair and this current iteration of the role is testable. Transporter is one of the most disruptive roles in the game, outright hurting town if their transports arent fully accounted for. This isnt. This role rewards skill while not being so disruptive or being overpowered. I also cannot see how limiting the amount of duels solves your issue. It's not the role's job to tell the player the most optimal way to play.

A doctor who can predict mafia kills can also be seen as "extremely powerful." TPS in general are. This merely is on the level of the other two roles, and requires you to make different reads to play effectively (who is scum AND who is attacked.)
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby MarsGodofWar » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:53 am

"a contest with deadly weapons arranged between two people in order to settle a point of honour."
Oxford Dictionary description of a Duel. There cannot be three people in a duel, at that point it is no longer a duel. So why is this role called a Duelist?
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Re: Role Idea: Duelist (Town Protective)

Postby sunbird1002 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:42 pm

MarsGodofWar wrote:"a contest with deadly weapons arranged between two people in order to settle a point of honour."
Oxford Dictionary description of a Duel. There cannot be three people in a duel, at that point it is no longer a duel. So why is this role called a Duelist?


This is rather ridiculous. I could just ignore it, but I won't.

The night that it duels two other people has the duelist go to one person's house, challenge them to a friendly spar, and learn their tactics. THEN they go to another person's house, challenge them to a friendly spar, and learn their tactics. Its not a slugfest between three people.

Secondly, the night it protects someone, it will challenge any attackers separately to separate duels (because they don't come all at once, the chances of that are low, and duels with a trained duelist are short anyway.)
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