Oracle (Town Investigative)

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

What do you think? (Please explain your vote)

Great as is!
5
50%
Okay, but needs some tweaks.
3
30%
Bad, needs major changes.
2
20%
 
Total votes : 10

Oracle (Town Investigative)

Postby superdog551 » Fri May 21, 2021 2:45 am

Role Name:
-Oracle

Role Alignment:
-Town(Investigative)

Abilities:
-Consult the spirits each night to learn how many living players in a chosen alignment are in the town.

Attributes:
-None.

Notifications:
-You have decided to gain insight on [Town(Investigative), Mafia(Deception), Neutral(Evil), Etc.] roles tonight.
-You have instead decided to gain insight on [Town(Investigative), Mafia(Deception), Neutral(Evil), Etc.] roles tonight.
-You have perceived that there are no [alignment] roles in the town!
-You have perceived that there is one [alignment] role in the town!
-You have perceived that there are # [alignment] roles in the town!

Goal:
-Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

Win Conditions:
-Same as town

Special Attributes:
-If someone has been framed they will count towards Mafia(Deception) and not their original alignment, and the frame does not disappear even if an Oracle "sees" them as a night result.
-If a mafia member has been disguised then they will not add to the number of players in their alignment if checked by an Oracle, instead they will add to the number of players in their disguised role's alignment if checked by an Oracle.
-If an Oracle is controlled by a Witch then the Witch will gain the result of whatever alignment the Oracle had chosen to check. If the Oracle had not chosen any alignment to check then the Witch will learn the details about a random alignment that is present in the game (The only time an Oracle would do nothing is if they were AFK so I don't really think RNG needs to be balanced for this).
-Edit: Detection immune roles such as Godfather will be visible under the alignment of the town role in their investigative results. Godfather will appear under Town(Protective) for BG, and Werewolf on non-full moon nights will appear under Town(Investigative) for sheriff for example.

Investigator Results:
Sheriff - Your target seems innocent.
Investigator - Medium/Janitor/Retributionist/Oracle
Consigliere - Your target gains insight from spirits, they must be an Oracle!

Achievements:
-Too Many to Count: Gain insight on an alignment with 5 or more members.
-Ghost Town: Check 3 different alignments with no members in one game.

Additional Information:
All of the alignments that can be checked are:
-Town(Investigative/Killing/Protective/Support)
-Mafia(Deception/Killing/Support)
-Neutral(Benign/Chaos/Evil/Killing)
-Coven(Evil)

I was trying to come up with a Psychic rework that removes the RNG aspects of the role, and while I think this could work as one I also figured it could work as it's own role. I think the main use of this role would be to confirm claims from the town. If two TPs have died then the Oracle can check the alignment to learn if there are any more remaining, and if not then anyone who claims that alignment is likely evil if they have not been framed. It may also be useful to deduce what someone who was forged/cleaned may have been if the Oracle strategically checks alignments. Let me know what you think!
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.

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Oracle
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Re: Oracle (Town Investigative)

Postby sunbird1002 » Sun May 23, 2021 5:30 pm

Trying to make psychic less rng is commendable. The question then is this: is it fine to make a role which gets lots of information, as long as the information is vague? I'm unsure. One thing to note is that detection immunity for this role is not all that it seems (in the context for ranked.) You know your Godfather is one of your 'TPs' so its less impactful than one might think. The Oracle really needs to just look at the town alignments to get a good grip on the game. This role is one of the masters of 'counterclaim' play, knowing if the 3 doctors accusing each other are legit, or if one (or two) of them are lying. Now the question is, is this too good?

In the context of ranked, perhaps. Getting scum between 2 people is already a very good catch, and can make town's life significantly easier. The information is also easier to get than, say, a Sheriff, who basically N1 can only catch scum through dumb luck.

Now, an important question for any town role is: how confirmable is it? How easy is it to fake? Oracle suffers the Medium problem.
On the one hand, if there is no oracle in game, then it can be faked easily! Just throw out a credible number, and people will be convinced!
On the other hand, the instant an actual oracle gets into the game, or, god forbid, several oracles do, it becomes as claimable as a medium if several mediums are in the game. The meta will advance so that oracles can confirm eachother by checking the town alignments in a specific order. Any discrepancies will result in death. And any plays involving faking 2 oracles is like plays involving faking 2 mediums; can be convincing, but it gets shut down if the actual medium comes out.

This could be combatted through making the oracle's investigation style more exact. (Choose two players, and choose an alignment. You will know if a player belongs to said alignment.) However, this is your role, and it might be nice to have a discussion about this. (Totally not weakening myself for the upcoming debate!)
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Name: Harvey Greater
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Favourite Occupations: Transporter, Investigator, Jester
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Re: Oracle (Town Investigative)

Postby superdog551 » Fri May 28, 2021 8:09 pm

Spoiler:
sunbird1002 wrote:Trying to make psychic less rng is commendable. The question then is this: is it fine to make a role which gets lots of information, as long as the information is vague? I'm unsure. One thing to note is that detection immunity for this role is not all that it seems (in the context for ranked.) You know your Godfather is one of your 'TPs' so its less impactful than one might think. The Oracle really needs to just look at the town alignments to get a good grip on the game. This role is one of the masters of 'counterclaim' play, knowing if the 3 doctors accusing each other are legit, or if one (or two) of them are lying. Now the question is, is this too good?

I would say a role with lots of vague information is fine, it's the natural counterpart to roles that get little but very specific information. I didn't consider that fact about detection immunity and you're right, I do think that it only would be a problem for the Godfather though since a role like WW wouldn't always be confirmed in a role list and so could secretly take up a Ti spot. In the current ranked list though I can see how this would not make much of a difference at all.
I intended for it to work with counter claims, that would be its strong suit. You do have a point though that it could be too powerful, even with the deception that framers or disguisers could give to counter it.

In the context of ranked, perhaps. Getting scum between 2 people is already a very good catch, and can make town's life significantly easier. The information is also easier to get than, say, a Sheriff, who basically N1 can only catch scum through dumb luck.

I don't think an Oracle would be powerful early game, yeah it can get some info but everybody is still alive and there are no claims out there. When counterclaims get heavy there is usually someone killed that same day so an Oracle would only be able to play huge support in the event that the counter claimers don't die.

Now, an important question for any town role is: how confirmable is it? How easy is it to fake? Oracle suffers the Medium problem.
On the one hand, if there is no oracle in game, then it can be faked easily! Just throw out a credible number, and people will be convinced!
On the other hand, the instant an actual oracle gets into the game, or, god forbid, several oracles do, it becomes as claimable as a medium if several mediums are in the game. The meta will advance so that oracles can confirm eachother by checking the town alignments in a specific order. Any discrepancies will result in death. And any plays involving faking 2 oracles is like plays involving faking 2 mediums; can be convincing, but it gets shut down if the actual medium comes out.

I would disagree here. Mediums can confirm each other straight up by name, making it pretty much impossible to fake claim with an existing medium. The Oracle does NOT have this same issue, though, because they can't actually communicate. I would say the danger with fake claiming Oracle is more similar to fake claiming a Lookout, because the issue appears when both have conflicting information about the same "check". Oracle is actually EASIER to fake than a LO because the Oracle is not at all confirmable. It doesn't visit and the numbers it gives can be easily faked. Even if a different Oracle CCs you, the simplest thing to do is push them back and hope they die in a 1f1, the same thing you would do if you got caught fake claiming LO except in that scenario you will most likely fail because LO can be easily confirmed.
This could be combatted through making the oracle's investigation style more exact. (Choose two players, and choose an alignment. You will know if a player belongs to said alignment.) However, this is your role, and it might be nice to have a discussion about this. (Totally not weakening myself for the upcoming debate!)

I'm not determined to have the Oracle keep this same mechanic, while I am defending the role I do agree that it could potentially be very powerful under the right circumstances. I like your suggestion, and it would make the Oracle more similar to the Psychic rework it was originally meant to be. I'll have to consider the implications of that mechanic as off the top of my head I am not sure how balanced or useful that ability would be.

Thanks for the feedback!
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.

My Roles:
Charmer
Oracle
Associate

In-game my name is Jay
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Re: Oracle (Town Investigative)

Postby MorganTheMod » Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:58 pm

i like this, it would definitely be very easy to fake as a coven or mafia player even if there is another actual oracle in the game because you already know how many people are in your coven or mafia. of course, that would now raise suspicion for oracles who only investigate the mafia roles, and coven could only fake it once. and this provides a good counter for stoned and cleaned persons given the right circumstances.

obviously we don’t know that if in the case this role is chosen for testing and game inclusion, if it will be included with the coven expansion/ roles, but i don’t like that the investigative results have 3 town and 1 mafia. seems a little more like a psychic group thing, as the only town in that group beside psychic is VH which is uncommon, but there is also no mafia in that group, but also not a real big deal at this point. really the only thing that caught my eye.

also just made the connection that you are from the role testing on monday. i am new (took like a 2 year break and just came back) and was playing as Yippiee so nice to meet you again :)
Im usually named Yippie if you ever want to greet me in game
I have some role ideas floating around if you wanna check them out ;)(and more to come!)
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