alex1234321 wrote:Alternatively we can just get rid of associate and duelist but that would be unfair to the roles they faced off with originally.
Maybe just bring back Spark Generator and Silencer in that case then?
alex1234321 wrote:Alternatively we can just get rid of associate and duelist but that would be unfair to the roles they faced off with originally.
alex1234321 wrote:Diamond conceded in a discord dm, so we can move forward with the tournament semifinals with elemental going through. That is assuming there's enough interest to do that.
Ezradekezra wrote:Spark Generator suffers from a large issue that PB/Pest, Bomber, and other NC roles also suffer from: It forces people to play against their win condition to not die (read: not to win, just to not die). Killing roles will be incentivized to visit protected players, Janitors and Forgers will be incentivized to waste charges, protective roles will be incentivized to go on evil players, and Spies bug players that they otherwise shouldn't to pass the bomb on.
Ezradekezra wrote:Additionally, Spark Generator can just straight-up screw over a bunch of roles (of all alignments). While a lot of these are scum roles, a not insignificant portion of these are Town roles (and important ones at that, such as Mayor), which when combined with the inherent inconsistency of the role leads to uncontrollable negative utility. Furthermore, getting stuck with the bomb as a role that can't get rid of it is just plain unfun, as afaik the only way to dodge an unstoppable attack is a GA protection (which I think doesn't even apply in some cases or something, it's kinda weird).
Ezradekezra wrote:Servant should be a fun role to play as, since it has the most fun aspect of being an informed minority role (having a night chat and teammates), has some degree of autonomy (more than Mafioso does when the GF is alive), and doesn't necessarily have to worry about deception. Unlike Spark Generator, it shouldn't make anyone else's experience less enjoyable at the very least.
Ezradekezra wrote:While NBs are inherently unbalanced due to being kingmakers in some capacity or another, Servant suffers from this the least compared to Survivor, Amnesiac, and Guardian Angel. The aforementioned three roles all have ways of switching sides mid-game (GA can do this by turning into a Survivor), Servant cannot switch sides after being assigned an employer.
Brilliand wrote:Spark Generator is an effective Town role not because of its ability to kill, but because it adds a great deal of information to the game, which can be analyzed to help identify who the scum are. It effectively functions as an investigative role, by creating a discussion in day chat about who gave the bomb to who, and who should receive the bomb next. This is an interesting mechanic that provides a net benefit to Town, though the Mafia does have ways to abuse it - including using the Witch to give the bomb to the Mayor.
Brilliand wrote:Yes, its most serious flaw (that it functions as an additional member for a random faction) is something that shares with Guardian Angel, so let's compare it with Guardian angel.
- Servant always has exactly its target's win condition. Guardian Angel needs its target to "survive", which can sometimes create a little conflict.
- Guardian Angel has a unique mechanic and goal that's interesting in its own right, even if the balance is off. Servant's ability to be a generalized Mafioso does not qualify, imo.
- Guardian Angel is a role that Town players will sometimes fakeclaim to trick scum into revealing themselves. This can't happen with Servant, because Servant gets included in the faction's night chat.
Brilliand wrote:Ezradekezra wrote:Spark Generator suffers from a large issue that PB/Pest, Bomber, and other NC roles also suffer from: It forces people to play against their win condition to not die (read: not to win, just to not die). Killing roles will be incentivized to visit protected players, Janitors and Forgers will be incentivized to waste charges, protective roles will be incentivized to go on evil players, and Spies bug players that they otherwise shouldn't to pass the bomb on.
Lots of roles have abilities that make the most direct path to victory a bad idea. Heck, Doctor (one of the oldest of Mafia roles) has such an ability. Similarly, the Escort is better at wasting players' time than the Spark Generator is - so I don't see this as a serious problem, if indeed it is a problem at all.
Brilliand wrote:Ezradekezra wrote:Additionally, Spark Generator can just straight-up screw over a bunch of roles (of all alignments). While a lot of these are scum roles, a not insignificant portion of these are Town roles (and important ones at that, such as Mayor), which when combined with the inherent inconsistency of the role leads to uncontrollable negative utility. Furthermore, getting stuck with the bomb as a role that can't get rid of it is just plain unfun, as afaik the only way to dodge an unstoppable attack is a GA protection (which I think doesn't even apply in some cases or something, it's kinda weird).
The fact that some roles have no counterplay once they get the bomb is unfortunate; but the bomb is never really given randomly (apart from night 1, but even that can be averted with D1 chat). If the wrong person gets the bomb, then someone chose to give it to them, so the unfortunate event is not wasted; rather, there's a chance to argue that someone is scum because they i.e. gave the Mayor the bomb.
And of course, even fewer roles have counterplay to getting shot by a Vigilante.
Brilliand wrote:Ezradekezra wrote:While NBs are inherently unbalanced due to being kingmakers in some capacity or another, Servant suffers from this the least compared to Survivor, Amnesiac, and Guardian Angel. The aforementioned three roles all have ways of switching sides mid-game (GA can do this by turning into a Survivor), Servant cannot switch sides after being assigned an employer.
But that's a flaw of the role! Servant is extra power given to a particular faction solely by random chance, rather than by any player choice. In any sort of list intended to be balanced (i.e. anything without an Any slot), that's going to be a problem. Survivor and Amnesiac, despite being kingmakers, still have actual gameplay in the form of convincing a player to make a particular choice - so they are actually neutrals, not simply an extra faction member classified as a neutral for rolelist purposes. Amnesiac in particular is hardly even a kingmaker, since it has to make its decision before the last day arrives.
Brilliand wrote:Between the three options "assigned your faction by your slot in the rolelist", "you choose your own faction", and "your faction is picked randomly as the game starts independent of roles being rolled", the last of those (the one Servant and Guardian Angel choose) is the worst of those options.
Ezradekezra wrote:It's a TK, not a TI.
Ezradekezra wrote:Brilliand wrote:Yes, its most serious flaw (that it functions as an additional member for a random faction) is something that shares with Guardian Angel, so let's compare it with Guardian angel.
- Servant always has exactly its target's win condition. Guardian Angel needs its target to "survive", which can sometimes create a little conflict.
- Guardian Angel has a unique mechanic and goal that's interesting in its own right, even if the balance is off. Servant's ability to be a generalized Mafioso does not qualify, imo.
- Guardian Angel is a role that Town players will sometimes fakeclaim to trick scum into revealing themselves. This can't happen with Servant, because Servant gets included in the faction's night chat.
- I don't see the point here.
- I'll concede this, but I don't think it's as major as you're making it out to be.
- I don't think I've ever seen this strat in use, but GA wouldn't be removed so people could just keep using this strat. I don't see what the problem is.
Ezradekezra wrote:Ezradekezra wrote:(read: not to win, just to not die)
See the bold.
Ezradekezra wrote:Brilliand wrote:And of course, even fewer roles have counterplay to getting shot by a Vigilante.
Most of the scum roles in question have basic defense.
Ezradekezra wrote: - I never claimed that NBs should go in modes that are intended to be balanced.
Ezradekezra wrote: - Wouldn't GA (not GA turned Surv) not be neutral either by that same line of logic?
Ezradekezra wrote:Brilliand wrote:Between the three options "assigned your faction by your slot in the rolelist", "you choose your own faction", and "your faction is picked randomly as the game starts independent of roles being rolled", the last of those (the one Servant and Guardian Angel choose) is the worst of those options.
- I don't really see how they're that much different
Ezradekezra wrote: - There's precedent in that multiple other roles have their targets chosen the same way
runningwiththepower wrote:The Necro would be a detriment to Town but it would defo be interesting to see the various strategies that would be crafted to work around the Silencer's Necro boost and the hyper unique meta that would develop to counter it. It would be fun and interesting and intense--the stakes would be really high and I bet it would be fun to play through---even for the Townies who may or may not lose. Silencer's whole gimmick is deception; it starts off weak and then grows stronger as the game goes on, provided it survives. I think the role is fundamentally different than Poisoner IMO; the similarities between the two fall apart when you look more closely at the two roles. And like I said, it would be easy for people to fake being Silenced. Is Susie Silenced or is just faking it because she's Jester ???? Who knows!
So you acknowledge that Elemental's purpose is stupid? :0
runningwiththepower wrote:In my personal opinion, just because it has a delayed kill similar a la to Poisoner does not necessarily mean it is similar to Poisoner. But I disgress; I think having Basic Attack makes the most sense, if it were to have Powerful Attack + the same Necro boost, it would be pretty OP. And even though it may not function as well solo, many Coven roles (HM, Poisoner, PM to a certain extent) can be total flops in a solo setting.
I feel like you are picking apart my role idea without necessarily advocating for your own role idea in turn
runningwiththepower wrote:While I think the Townies may be afraid to speak, I think most probably still will because the game requires it. In addition, through the usage of LO & Crusaders, they can wittle it down to who amongst them CAN speak by determing "OK, Sara-Beth the Crusader was on me last night, so I'm safe from the Silencer."
Plus, some will surely risk it for the biscuit and some will determine that they are probably just not a priority for the Silencer and henceforth will talk anyway "I'm Medium and all the dead Townies have DCed. Why would the Silencer get me when there are 2 Invests & a Sherif left?" Plus, the threat of a Silencer on the looser will force people to speak to some extent to root out the Silencer anyway.
"I really like my role because I feel like ToS lacks roles with Rampage, Healing, Purging, Removal of Roles/Wills, and Roleblocking."
And Your solution to that was to create a NC role that combines all 5 of those attributes? It seems a bit too much, especially for new players.
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