Lookout/Recon Discussion Thread

Suggest new roles or changes to current roles for the game here.

What changes should be made to the Lookout?

The Lookout proposal in OP is acceptable to implement.
1
6%
Lookout should be reverted to see all visitors
4
22%
A Mafia counterpart of Lookout(+Tracker) should be added. aka Agent
6
33%
The Agent should have Deception Immunity.
3
17%
The Agent should be able to self-target.
4
22%
Lookout should be completely overhauled, as its core mechanics are unfixable.
0
No votes
Other.
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 18

Lookout/Recon Discussion Thread

Postby cob709 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:49 pm

Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf Proposal
There are currently two main issues with Lookout. The first one is that it utilizes RNG mechanics, which can be swingy and unbalanced. The second problem is that it's too confirmable and difficult to claim for evil players. This proposal attempts to solve both of these problems without compromising its core mechanics.

Lookout
Town Investigative
Abilities
    Watch one person at night to see who visits them.
Attributes
    You will only see evil players visit your target.


This reworks solves the first problem by ensuring that their results are never randomized. It also solves the second problem because they are unable to confirm town players nor themselves, as evil players can claim that they visited the Lookout's target, evils may also claim Lookout. Despite these changes, this proposal still keeps the core function of the Lookout, which is to identify evil visitors.

-:-

Recon(Mafia Support) Proposal
During discussion, it has been suggested that Lookout should be reverted to its original version, while a Mafia counterpart is added instead. Conversation of superdog and svj.
Recon
Mafia Support
Abilities
    Watch and track one person at night to see who visits them and who they visit.
Attributes
    None

Investigative results
    [Investigator](Classic): Your target could be a Lookout, Forger, Witch, or Recon.
    [Investigator](Coven): Your target could be a Lookout, Forger, Juggernaut, Coven Leader, or Recon.
    [Sheriff]: Your target is suspicious!
    [Consigliere]/[Coven Leader]/[Witch]/[Potion Master](Revealing): Your target watches who visits people at night and is skilled in the art of tracking. They must be a Recon.

Similar/same proposals:
Last edited by cob709 on Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:01 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby MarsGodofWar » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:56 pm

Bruh, stop trying to change roles in ways they don't need to be changed. It makes no sense for the Lookout to only see evils. Do town members now have an invisible coat? Lookout stations themselves at a persons house and is meant to see everyone who visits. Why should they become blind to town members? Stop suggesting unlogical changes for roles. Lookout functions how it should.

If anything this could be considered a buff in some cases, as Lookout can easily determine evils that go on Jailor. Witch and Consort will become more vulnerable.

I've already suggested a simple change to the Lookout, which is reverting it back to how it was and allowing it to see all targets. RNG shouldn't exist with roles and that would remove the RNG. Lookout was never overpowered. The role just had a meta built around it. Fix the TP/LO & Jailor meta and Lookout will naturally become less powerful.

Lookout also isn't hard to fake at all, most people are just too lazy to fake it. I fake Lookout all the time, its easy. As Witch, put your target in the Lookout will, wait a few seconds for the dead players to come up & if any of them were on the tp/lo claim put them in the will and then chuck a random in there and say + more. Example... N1: 10 - {VB} Reconnaissance, Loki, John Hathorne + more I couldn't identify. As RM you can fake Lookout as well, put your Godfather in the will, wait for the dead guys that you can put in your will and then chuck a random in there. Sure, sometimes you can make a mistake. But if you pull it off you are trusted most of the game.
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:51 am

This still feels OP because it could instantly confirm evils. I would assume framed players would show up as evil, but that's not a common situation. But maybe it isn't OP because there are really only four evils in Ranked that it would be able to see, which is one more than Sheriff.

My biggest concern with this role is that it would strengthen Jailor meta since the Witch won't want to go on Jailor if there's a Lookout that can spot it. Even if someone other than the Jailor asks for TP/LO, that would completely prevent Witch and RMs from visiting the player, which doesn't seem like the intended purpose of the role.
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby cob709 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:26 pm

MarsGodofWar wrote:Bruh, stop trying to change roles in ways they don't need to be changed. It makes no sense for the Lookout to only see evils. Do town members now have an invisible coat? Lookout stations themselves at a persons house and is meant to see everyone who visits. Why should they become blind to town members? Stop suggesting unlogical changes for roles. Lookout functions how it should.

Roles must be balanced around fair gameplay instead of story. Although it flavor should be considered, it should never be the main argument. If it irks you so much, would you like me to add some flavor to the role?

MarsGodofWar wrote:If anything this could be considered a buff in some cases, as Lookout can easily determine evils that go on Jailor. Witch and Consort will become more vulnerable.

The whole point of Lookout is to catch evil visitors.

alex1234321 wrote:This still feels OP because it could instantly confirm evils. I would assume framed players would show up as evil, but that's not a common situation. But maybe it isn't OP because there are really only four evils in Ranked that it would be able to see, which is one more than Sheriff.

My biggest concern with this role is that it would strengthen Jailor meta since the Witch won't want to go on Jailor if there's a Lookout that can spot it. Even if someone other than the Jailor asks for TP/LO, that would completely prevent Witch and RMs from visiting the player, which doesn't seem like the intended purpose of the role.

If the Lookout can predict who the evils visit, then they are rewarded by learning the identity of the evil visitors. The nature of Investigative roles is to find evils. It may confirm* the evil players to the Lookout, but they will still need to convince the town that they are trustworthy, which provides the Mafia the opportunity to fakeclaim Lookout and frame someone or try to convince the town that the Lookout who caught them is fake.
*Unless framed/disguised

As for your main concern, I think this article about WIFOM will be helpful as context to the following statement. If the Lookout knows that the evils won't visit their target, then they will instead visit someone else to try and find evil players. However, if the evils know that the Lookout would be on someone else, that mean they could try to visit their original target. But if the Lookout knows this (etc)...
Point is, the Lookout does not necessarily prevent evils from visiting their target. Rather, it should be worded as the Lookout is rewarded for correctly predicting who evil players visit(just as the Doctor is rewarded for correctly predicting who the Mafia will attack).
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:38 pm

I dont like it because it allows it to reliably get important info alone, normally all TIs do support each other

If you think deeply this is very similar to sheriff, as both roles are made to see who is evil

This one would requiere a lot more skill tho, and even by ignoring detection inmunity, over all it would become a nerfed sheriff


And new metas would be developed around this

In classic im not sure how, but in coven

Lookout to giles corey: visit 5

Tracker tracks giles corey

Start confirming people reliably
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:51 pm

Maybe just give it a strict priority order. Broad strokes, maybe make it Killing (Serial, Werewolf, Godioso, Vigilante, etc), then Disruptive (Escort, Blackmailer, Transporter, etc), then Protective, then non-Disruptive (Investigator, Consiglere, Sheriff, Spy, Janitor, etc). If you want, then have it only able to see one member of each bracket on top of its normal limit (So if someone gets smacked by Serial and Mafioso, the Lookout will only see whichever one has higher internal priority between them). Not exactly a nerf, but cuts off the random element since it would imply every single visiting role having a distinct priority rather than just choosing at random among the broad strokes brackets listed.
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby MarsGodofWar » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:49 pm

SilverCruz wrote:Maybe just give it a strict priority order. Broad strokes, maybe make it Killing (Serial, Werewolf, Godioso, Vigilante, etc), then Disruptive (Escort, Blackmailer, Transporter, etc), then Protective, then non-Disruptive (Investigator, Consiglere, Sheriff, Spy, Janitor, etc). If you want, then have it only able to see one member of each bracket on top of its normal limit (So if someone gets smacked by Serial and Mafioso, the Lookout will only see whichever one has higher internal priority between them). Not exactly a nerf, but cuts off the random element since it would imply every single visiting role having a distinct priority rather than just choosing at random among the broad strokes brackets listed.


Or simple solution, just make the Lookout fit its original intended purpose and allow it to see all visits. Honestly, this is the stupidest fucking Lookout rework I've seen. Give up on this idea ASAP
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:31 pm

The Lookout used to be like that, you rude little thing. And now it's not. I'm sure there's a reason for that.
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:51 am

cob709 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:This still feels OP because it could instantly confirm evils. I would assume framed players would show up as evil, but that's not a common situation. But maybe it isn't OP because there are really only four evils in Ranked that it would be able to see, which is one more than Sheriff.

My biggest concern with this role is that it would strengthen Jailor meta since the Witch won't want to go on Jailor if there's a Lookout that can spot it. Even if someone other than the Jailor asks for TP/LO, that would completely prevent Witch and RMs from visiting the player, which doesn't seem like the intended purpose of the role.

If the Lookout can predict who the evils visit, then they are rewarded by learning the identity of the evil visitors. The nature of Investigative roles is to find evils. It may confirm* the evil players to the Lookout, but they will still need to convince the town that they are trustworthy, which provides the Mafia the opportunity to fakeclaim Lookout and frame someone or try to convince the town that the Lookout who caught them is fake.
*Unless framed/disguised

As for your main concern, I think this article about WIFOM will be helpful as context to the following statement. If the Lookout knows that the evils won't visit their target, then they will instead visit someone else to try and find evil players. However, if the evils know that the Lookout would be on someone else, that mean they could try to visit their original target. But if the Lookout knows this (etc)...
Point is, the Lookout does not necessarily prevent evils from visiting their target. Rather, it should be worded as the Lookout is rewarded for correctly predicting who evil players visit(just as the Doctor is rewarded for correctly predicting who the Mafia will attack).


Right now, the vast majority of TPs would protect a player who says "Jailor TP/LO" D1. Even though it might appear that this would be due to the utility of Jailor, I think it has more to do with not looking fake. If you claim Doctor and say that you healed someone besides the Jailor D1 "because WIFOM," you're going to look very fake. If you're scum, you'd rather kill someone else more often than not because the risk of protection outweighs the utility of killing Jailor as opposed to a weaker role.

In this case, it would be similar. Very few Lookouts would watch someone besides the player who asks for TPLO because they will look very fake. Of course, smart players who understand WIFOM would know that sometimes you shouldn't watch the player who asks for TPLO, but watching someone else would drastically reduce the Town's trust in you. I haven't done the whole game theory math of it, but Town loses enough from the dead Jailor and likely mislynched Lookout that I would expect Lookouts would watch the Jailor claim more often than not and Witches would target that player far less often than they do now.
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:38 am

One time i was a Lookout and I ignored the Jailor's cry for a Lookout.

Long story short, I nailed the Mafioso and Janitor that round.
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby cob709 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:25 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:If you think deeply this is very similar to sheriff, as both roles are made to see who is evil

This one would requiere a lot more skill tho, and even by ignoring detection inmunity, over all it would become a nerfed sheriff

Although both roles have the purpose of identifying evil players, they have vastly different playstyles. The Sheriff needs to interrogate who they think is evil, while the Lookout needs to predict who the evils will visit. This rewards players who play well.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:And new metas would be developed around this

In classic im not sure how, but in coven

Lookout to giles corey: visit 5

Tracker tracks giles corey

Start confirming people reliably

Since there is the possibility of the Mafia claiming Tracker or Lookout, they wouldn't be confirmed.

alex1234321 wrote:
cob709 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:This still feels OP because it could instantly confirm evils. I would assume framed players would show up as evil, but that's not a common situation. But maybe it isn't OP because there are really only four evils in Ranked that it would be able to see, which is one more than Sheriff.

My biggest concern with this role is that it would strengthen Jailor meta since the Witch won't want to go on Jailor if there's a Lookout that can spot it. Even if someone other than the Jailor asks for TP/LO, that would completely prevent Witch and RMs from visiting the player, which doesn't seem like the intended purpose of the role.

If the Lookout can predict who the evils visit, then they are rewarded by learning the identity of the evil visitors. The nature of Investigative roles is to find evils. It may confirm* the evil players to the Lookout, but they will still need to convince the town that they are trustworthy, which provides the Mafia the opportunity to fakeclaim Lookout and frame someone or try to convince the town that the Lookout who caught them is fake.
*Unless framed/disguised

As for your main concern, I think this article about WIFOM will be helpful as context to the following statement. If the Lookout knows that the evils won't visit their target, then they will instead visit someone else to try and find evil players. However, if the evils know that the Lookout would be on someone else, that mean they could try to visit their original target. But if the Lookout knows this (etc)...
Point is, the Lookout does not necessarily prevent evils from visiting their target. Rather, it should be worded as the Lookout is rewarded for correctly predicting who evil players visit(just as the Doctor is rewarded for correctly predicting who the Mafia will attack).


Right now, the vast majority of TPs would protect a player who says "Jailor TP/LO" D1. Even though it might appear that this would be due to the utility of Jailor, I think it has more to do with not looking fake. If you claim Doctor and say that you healed someone besides the Jailor D1 "because WIFOM," you're going to look very fake. If you're scum, you'd rather kill someone else more often than not because the risk of protection outweighs the utility of killing Jailor as opposed to a weaker role.

In this case, it would be similar. Very few Lookouts would watch someone besides the player who asks for TPLO because they will look very fake. Of course, smart players who understand WIFOM would know that sometimes you shouldn't watch the player who asks for TPLO, but watching someone else would drastically reduce the Town's trust in you. I haven't done the whole game theory math of it, but Town loses enough from the dead Jailor and likely mislynched Lookout that I would expect Lookouts would watch the Jailor claim more often than not and Witches would target that player far less often than they do now.


Discussing WIFOM will go in circles. That's the premise of it.
Considering the perspective of both the Lookout and evils, they would need to predict who each other target. The point is that they are each rewarded and punished based on their performance and skill.
Simulating what a player would do through the Trial Grounds will provide a more accurate and concise understanding.
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby MarsGodofWar » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:11 am

Just scrap this idea please, terrible. Lookout should do what its functioned to do, see all players who visit a certain house. Stop trying to nerf a role because of a meta
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby superdog551 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:25 am

Other: Revert LO to be able to see all visitors and add a Mafia LO counterpart
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:43 am

superdog551 wrote:Other: Revert LO to be able to see all visitors and add a Mafia LO counterpart


yeah, like the agent that marsgodwar suggested

altho it should do both abilities together because otherwise is not very useful
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby superdog551 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:49 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
superdog551 wrote:Other: Revert LO to be able to see all visitors and add a Mafia LO counterpart


yeah, like the agent that marsgodwar suggested

altho it should do both abilities together because otherwise is not very useful


You mean a LO/Tracker combo? That would be cool
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby cob709 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:39 pm

MarsGodofWar wrote:Just scrap this idea please, terrible. Lookout should do what its functioned to do, see all players who visit a certain house. Stop trying to nerf a role because of a meta

Please do not sidetrack the conversation. Your points were all addressed. It has already been stated that its intended function is something that needs changing.

superdog551 wrote:Other: Revert LO to be able to see all visitors and add a Mafia LO counterpart

Suggestion added to poll and edited into OP.

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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby SilverCruz » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:09 pm

I'd say make the Framer the Mafia Lookout. Each night, if a Role other than Investigator or Sheriff visits a Framed Target, the Framer will be told. They can only see one visit per target to compensate for being able to see visits to multiple players at once, and will not be told who visited a Framed target if (one of) the visitor(s) is a Sheriff and/or Investigator, instead just being told that the Frame was activated, with this also overriding any other visits.

You may say that pushes it more into Support than Deception, but I ask you, are those labels really that important? For example, Janitor and Hypnotist. Both are considered Deception, but they fill fundamentally different roles.
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:15 pm

I think a Mafia Lookout/Tracker should absolutely be added, but I don't think that's a significant nerf for Lookout other than reduced confirmability. A Mafia Lookout wouldn't lie about the TPs that visit someone because they would just get shot or executed that night.

I still can't reconcile the fact that this would further encourage TP/LO meta. My Lookout rework (one visit + priority list) is far from perfect, but I think it has a better effect on the meta than this suggestion.
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Re: Lookout(Town Investigative) Nerf

Postby MarsGodofWar » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:14 pm

cob709 wrote:Please do not sidetrack the conversation. Your points were all addressed. It has already been stated that its intended function is something that needs changing.


Why exactly does its intended function need change though? Just implement TMK and get rid of the Jailor & TP/LO meta. Doing this will naturally nerf the Lookout and players will have to think more critically while playing Lookout. Id very much like to see Lookouts being able to go on whoever they want, rather then getting instantly lynched/executed if they weren't on the tp/lo claim. You could confirm Town members visiting a player when nothing harmful happened to that player who was visited; You could catch fake TIS out; you would have to predict who might be killed that night rather than just sitting on the same person.

cob709 wrote:While the Lookout needs to predict who the evils will visit. This rewards players who play well.


Exactly the Lookout needs to predict who the evils will visit. Staying on the tp/lo claim all game and catching any Consorts/Witches that try to stop an execute is not predicting anything. At least with the current Lookout you still need to narrow down who the evil might be

Your suggestion also keeps the tp/lo meta alive which is getting very stale. Lookout just stays on Jailor all game until they are attacked


Also, I'd like to suggest adding two attributes to the Agent. Firstly, allowing them to stake out their own house and seeing anyone who visits them. A nice useful addition. Also "Ignores Detection Immunity" just so they aren't seeing different visits when their own Disguiser is on the same target or whatnot
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Re: Lookout/Agent Discussion Thread

Postby cob709 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:46 am

Mars' TP/LO JAILOR META COUNTERS has been edited into the OP.
MarsGodofWar wrote:
cob709 wrote:Please do not sidetrack the conversation. Your points were all addressed. It has already been stated that its intended function is something that needs changing.


Why exactly does its intended function need change though? Just implement TMK and get rid of the Jailor & TP/LO meta. Doing this will naturally nerf the Lookout and players will have to think more critically while playing Lookout. Id very much like to see Lookouts being able to go on whoever they want, rather then getting instantly lynched/executed if they weren't on the tp/lo claim. You could confirm Town members visiting a player when nothing harmful happened to that player who was visited; You could catch fake TIS out; you would have to predict who might be killed that night rather than just sitting on the same person.

The original function is to see all visitors, which would make them too easily confirmed because the Mafia cannot accurately predict the Town's visits. it also confirms players too easily(both the Lookout and the players they see). However, adding a Mafia counterpart would resolve this problem, as Lookout claims may be suspected as the Agent, meaning they are no longer confirmed.

MarsGodofWar wrote:
cob709 wrote:While the Lookout needs to predict who the evils will visit. This rewards players who play well.


Exactly the Lookout needs to predict who the evils will visit. Staying on the tp/lo claim all game and catching any Consorts/Witches that try to stop an execute is not predicting anything. At least with the current Lookout you still need to narrow down who the evil might be

Your suggestion also keeps the tp/lo meta alive which is getting very stale. Lookout just stays on Jailor all game until they are attacked


Also, I'd like to suggest adding two attributes to the Agent. Firstly, allowing them to stake out their own house and seeing anyone who visits them. A nice useful addition. Also "Ignores Detection Immunity" just so they aren't seeing different visits when their own Disguiser is on the same target or whatnot

If they stay on TP/LO claim, then evils will obviously avoid them, which means that they have wasted their action. Though, it seems more favorable to implement Agent instead of nerfing Lookout.

Edit: Suggestions added to poll.

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Re: Lookout/Agent Discussion Thread

Postby MarsGodofWar » Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:32 pm

"Deception immunity" or "Ignores Detection Immunity" is a small but necessary attribute to the Agent. As it doesn't make sense for Mafia members to be hidden from their own team member. Agent players would also have to be more careful when writing their wills if they have a disguiser in the game as a Lookout won't see a disguised target whilst an Agent will. Also, allowing Agent to self target himself and see anyone visit him would be a cool little attribute which may sometimes come in handy. Thoughts people?
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Re: Lookout/Agent Discussion Thread

Postby Cookazoo2 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:22 am

why not just make the agent have higher priority than frames/disguises?
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Re: Lookout/Agent Discussion Thread

Postby MarsGodofWar » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:25 am

Attribute still needs to be on the role card so players are aware. Priority should be the same as Lookout
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Re: Lookout/Agent Discussion Thread

Postby Brilliand » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:19 pm

MarsGodofWar wrote:"Deception immunity" or "Ignores Detection Immunity" is a small but necessary attribute to the Agent. As it doesn't make sense for Mafia members to be hidden from their own team member. Agent players would also have to be more careful when writing their wills if they have a disguiser in the game as a Lookout won't see a disguised target whilst an Agent will. Also, allowing Agent to self target himself and see anyone visit him would be a cool little attribute which may sometimes come in handy. Thoughts people?


If Agent is able to bypass Disguiser, it should show as "You saw <Mafia Member> visiting your target disguised as <Disguiser's second target>". Showing only one name or the other would make it too easy for the Agent to get confused in ways that he really shouldn't.
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Re: Lookout/Recon Discussion Thread

Postby cob709 » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:02 am

Renamed to "Recon" to avoid duplication of a common role name in TG.

Name suggested by Wave
Thanks to Sal for brining this to my attention
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cob709
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